Post-Game Talk: We win

[Duke74]

Definitely think that Nuge is a better overall player than drai and stand by that. We've screwed around big time with Hopkins development and i would argue that he still isn't at his full potential. I have nothing against drai and dig him as a player, just absolutely hate his contract. 6 Mil yeah, 8.5 NO. Road off mcdavids coattails and now gets paid like a guy who should be able to make people around him better, which he doesn't. Lol @ the excuse of him needing better linemates.

The fact that Nuge is heads and tails above drai in terms of defensive play makes the initial statement even easier to digest.

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd.

I can perhaps allow one to make a case that Nuge is better defensively, although I think it's fairly close.

But offensively?

In 7 seasons, Nuge has never reached 60 points. NEVER. In three year's Drai's done it twice.

Remember last year's playoffs before the stink of this year got in the way? Nuge had how many goals again? And Drai had what? 16 points in 13 games, most of WITHOUT McDavid.

And what about last year when Drai had twice the points of Nuge?

And even this year, a good Nuge year and a bad Drai year (relatively speaking) Drai STILL leads in PPG and overall points. And I haven't even mentioned faceoffs yet.

I think the slight regression and the contract in combination with Nuge overachieving this year has really warped people's perception of the two players. Definitely lends credence to the saying, "what have you done for me lately."

 

[Digger12]

So I can't critique him because of his age? What if this same scoring drought happens next year? Is the excuse going to be "he's 20"?

Critique him all you like, as long as you're not violating board rules I don't see why you can't. Just don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously at this stage in the game.

And if he's still struggling next year at this time, we'll wring our hands about it then. I don't see the worth in being all fretful about something that might happen a year from now.

Let him have this offseason to decompress, gain a smidgen of maturity and maybe some perspective too. And if all goes to plan he'll come to camp in 5 months ready to perform in what will be the most important training camp of his life so far. He'll have a lot to prove, and I'm betting every opportunity to prove it.

I just hope when he comes to camp it'll be as an Oiler, and not some other team because Chiarelli chose to go the quick fix route.

 

[Drivesaitl]

So the board is back to running Eberle Draisaitl out of town while bending over backwards to come up with excuses for Yakupov Puljujarvi.

Why does this board always have to have a hate on for it's best players?

I should just wait until morning after for reason to prevail in these threads.

The bolded is the Cadbury question. Wish I had the answer. Last night lol I was called out for having "favorites" who just happen to be the best players on this team.

But more the case its become a secular board where people just favor their favorites without any tangible consideration of why they would be favorites.

Its kind of ironic I get called out so much for having Drasaitl as one of my favorites when people on the same board opt for Lucic, Pulju, Khaira and the like. (I like what Khaira is bringing most nights)

Even Maroon here rarely got a fair shake. With him it was always denoting he's just about McD.

 

[bucks_oil]

This is absolute nonsense which you've bought hook line and sinker. Look closer into Seguins dads account of what transpired. The drinking was entirely overblown. From his knowledge it happened one time where it shouldn't have. Do your think your position on Seguin is valid? Accurate? More likely the scenario is that Seguin difficulty was exaggerated and amplified further to individuals earmarking the player for trade and being allowed to do that. Chia likely could have had more resistance in trading Seguin from org, shareholders, fans, without orchestrating some lame narrative on the why.
Further lifestyle issues in pro players are often sensationalized and in anycase were fans of the Oilers of the mid 80's that were the subject of a Sports Illustrated drug article so its kind of funny in perspective for anybody to think a kid going out for a few wobbly pops was a huge issue.
Elite Athletes could rarely have the kind of substance issues that some would allege them to. You simply can't play a sport like hockey at an elite level for long and be successful at it without having real focus, training, and dedication.

In anycase..

Years ago the Oilers gave a guy by the name of Joe Murphy a chance. (He had far more alleged issues from reports) It turned out to be a move that won us another SC (Murphy's contribution was very positive) and allowed the Oilers to be competitive 2 seasons longer than it would have been otherwise. I was a huge Joe Murphy fan and applauded the move all the way. What a player.

The reality in life is that young individuals can make mistakes.

As for "Favorites" I like players that go to the wall for the team and give it more than anybody thought they could. Its easy to have these kinds of players as favorites. Ask yourself one question. Isn't Leon Draisaitl a far better player than you would have thought he would have been 3 yrs ago? Theres only one answer to that, its yes, and its what every fan of any team should want. Players that exceed expectation. So wow, I love players that exceed expectation.

come at me bro

I live in Boston. At the time literally across the street from the Garden. The Seguin stuff was not overblown.

It was also true that he's an exceptional talent that benefited from a fresh start. Same with Joe Murphy. Same with Taylor Hall. Sometimes a kid will need that to turn the page on... well.. being a kid. It's no biggie, every team needs to do it from time to time.

Nobody in their right mind would trade Taylor Hall unless pressed to it. Oilers were losing for YEARS. None of their talented players had changed that... even McDavid. Taylor Hall had the most value. The value of ALL of their talents was depressed due to losing. IF, and it is IF, he also was having some discipline issues, it would only have made a bitter pill easier to swallow. Rumors be true, Larsson was regarded a very mature young professional and a talented player himself... like Nurse. No way NJ was trading him for badly damaged goods (Ebs) or questionable durability and offense (Nuge).

I'm a huge Drai fan too... but it's pretty clear that he is heavily influenced by his mental state... highly competitive and self critical. That can lead to games where he's checked out. It also leads to complete dominance when he's checked in. We need to manage the good and the bad... just as he does. That's how he learns to be a professional. Not worried about him, but they say one's greatest strengths overplayed become a weakness. Leon's fire & perfectionist attributes can lead to him being frustrated.

 

[Mr Positive]

Well, dynamically we have a GM that managed to trade Seguin, Hall, Wheeler, Kessel and invented some sort of justification for all of the trades. Neely would be more deluded than Chia is.

I don't feel like those moves have much in common. You say "invented some sort of justification" as if those weren't the real reasons. So why do you think he traded those players? That thing you said about picking favourites?

I'd say the closest real reason could be poor cap management, although I think with Chiarelli, he also has taken on teams where he had a huge amount of talented players (and in the case of Seguin, Kessel and Wheeler, he was the one who brought in and/or developed those players), and those teams are just destined to bleed talented players because that's what the purpose of the cap is. Like for Boston for instance, do you think that the Bruins could have had a team that had Kessel, Krejci, Bergeron, Chara, Seguin, Boychuck, and Wheeler while staying under the cap? Would all those players even look as good as they do now if they were all crowded together like that?

Like it or not, it was like that with Hall and Eberle here too. The main plan for our team is to have McDavid and Drai down the middle, with RNH as an alternate top six C. Right now we have an affordable defense, but the plan is to upgrade it, and so realistically it won't be so affordable anymore. We'd also like to reserve a little extra cash for goaltending. Ditching Eberle with zero retention was a necessary move since he is very overpaid. Hall is underpaid, and we could have kept him, but he is close to his next deal, which will be around 9 million (if not more), so he could only be in our short term plans unless we are planning on keeping our defense "affordable". Btw, I'm not commenting on the value that Chia got for Hall here, just acknowledging that Hall pretty much had to go, and if you want to blame anything, blame the cap. The league doesn't tolerate super teams anymore.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I don't feel like those moves have much in common. You say "invented some sort of justification" as if those weren't the real reasons. So why do you think he traded those players? That thing you said about picking favourites?

I'd say the closest real reason could be poor cap management, although I think with Chiarelli, he also has taken on teams where he had a huge amount of talented players (and in the case of Seguin, Kessel and Wheeler, he was the one who brought in and/or developed those players), and those teams are just destined to bleed talented players because that's what the purpose of the cap is. Like for Boston for instance, do you think that the Bruins could have had a team that had Kessel, Krejci, Bergeron, Chara, Seguin, Boychuck, and Wheeler while staying under the cap? Would all those players even look as good as they do now if they were all crowded together like that?

Like it or not, it was like that with Hall and Eberle here too. The main plan for our team is to have McDavid and Drai down the middle, with RNH as an alternate top six C. Right now we have an affordable defense, but the plan is to upgrade it, and so realistically it won't be so affordable anymore. We'd also like to reserve a little extra cash for goaltending. Ditching Eberle with zero retention was a necessary move since he is very overpaid. Hall is underpaid, and we could have kept him, but he is close to his next deal, which will be around 9 million (if not more), so he could only be in our short term plans unless we are planning on keeping our defense "affordable". Btw, I'm not commenting on the value that Chia got for Hall here, just acknowledging that Hall pretty much had to go, and if you want to blame anything, blame the cap. The league doesn't tolerate super teams anymore.

Theres an old parlance that he who obtains the best player in the trade won the trade. That used to be considered as a clear barometer. In all 4 of the deals mentioned Chia quite clearly sold for less.

I look at team building from the perspective of building and adding to value. Its inane that a club that was loaded with winger assets just 2years ago now has the worst collection of wingers in the league. For all that loss we have one appreciable asset, Larsson.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Critique him all you like, as long as you're not violating board rules I don't see why you can't. Just don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously at this stage in the game.

And if he's still struggling next year at this time, we'll wring our hands about it then. I don't see the worth in being all fretful about something that might happen a year from now.

Let him have this offseason to decompress, gain a smidgen of maturity and maybe some perspective too. And if all goes to plan he'll come to camp in 5 months ready to perform in what will be the most important training camp of his life so far. He'll have a lot to prove, and I'm betting every opportunity to prove it.

I just hope when he comes to camp it'll be as an Oiler, and not some other team because Chiarelli chose to go the quick fix route.

I do think there's a point where you start to worry about this guy, especially given his pedigree. I'm not saying he needs to be lighting the world on fire but he's been pretty cold since 2018 started. Just 4 goals and 5 assists in 3 months. The Oilers need him to produce more than that.

 

[Little Fury]

I do think there's a point where you start to worry about this guy, especially given his pedigree. I'm not saying he needs to be lighting the world on fire but he's been pretty cold since 2018 started. Just 4 goals and 5 assists in 3 months. The Oilers need him to produce more than that.

I think he needs to get dealt. If there's one organization that can't be trusted to unlock a young player's potential, it's the Oilers.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I live in Boston. At the time literally across the street from the Garden. The Seguin stuff was not overblown.

It was also true that he's an exceptional talent that benefited from a fresh start. Same with Joe Murphy. Same with Taylor Hall. Sometimes a kid will need that to turn the page on... well.. being a kid. It's no biggie, every team needs to do it from time to time.

Nobody in their right mind would trade Taylor Hall unless pressed to it. Oilers were losing for YEARS. None of their talented players had changed that... even McDavid. Taylor Hall had the most value. The value of ALL of their talents was depressed due to losing. IF, and it is IF, he also was having some discipline issues, it would only have made a bitter pill easier to swallow. Rumors be true, Larsson was regarded a very mature young professional and a talented player himself... like Nurse. No way NJ was trading him for badly damaged goods (Ebs) or questionable durability and offense (Nuge).

I'm a huge Drai fan too... but it's pretty clear that he is heavily influenced by his mental state... highly competitive and self critical. That can lead to games where he's checked out. It also leads to complete dominance when he's checked in. We need to manage the good and the bad... just as he does. That's how he learns to be a professional. Not worried about him, but they say one's greatest strengths overplayed become a weakness. Leon's fire & perfectionist attributes can lead to him being frustrated.

Thanks for your contribution. Excellent post.

I will say in response though that its become a pro sports idea that pro athletes often require a change in scenery. So that its become an accepted mode of how it goes down. That several million buck players get moved instead of the far less qualified managers that make the decisions on the moves.

I'll even posit that its a dynamic pro sports should look at more. I wonder how many moves have some sort of perceived conflict somewhere in the decision base. In the boardroom videos of the Bruins it seems at least contagion of thought had occurred in relation to Seguin.

Pro sports has a very primitive idea about its assets. That if it appears you have problems with them you just move them whether than resolve them through other means, third party, counselling, remediation, mitigation etc. Needs to be remembered these are valuable assets. Far more valuable than the managers pulling the trigger. Those individuals should probably lose their jobs more often but now how it plays out. In pro sports its coaches and players getting the axe mostly.

Anyway thanks again for your comments. We might as well be discussing something here. Meaningless game 81 on the schedule isn't something people are talking about

 

[Drivesaitl]

I do think there's a point where you start to worry about this guy, especially given his pedigree. I'm not saying he needs to be lighting the world on fire but he's been pretty cold since 2018 started. Just 4 goals and 5 assists in 3 months. The Oilers need him to produce more than that.

90GP is not insignificant in development to expect that the player should be showing more than this in pro hockey. Sure, more time. I'd be satisfied with 40pts next season depending on usage. But still that wouldn't be fullfillment of what was expected from the player and that he has 20pts this season is the bigger concern. That he's been arguably one of the worst wingers on a team with quite a lot of struggling wingers. Shouldn't a prospected to be elite player even be separating themselves in some way from Khaira, Slepy, Pak, Cagg, Rattie, Aberg etc.

 

[CupofOil]

Even Maroon here rarely got a fair shake. With him it was always denoting he's just about McD.

Very true with this. Maroon just fell victim to what a lot of players did, playing meaningless games and struggling to find motivation. The comments about Maroon towards the end of his tenure were shameful, this was a guy who was a huge part of team success and came up big in the biggest moments and a lot of posters turned on him on a dime. I got a bit frustrated with him at times too but I always appreciated the guy.

As we now see with the Devils, he's clearly not just a McDavid leech and I, for one, could not be happier for him. BTW, did you see the Devils game or the highlights? Maroon with 2 sweet passes, the 2nd being typical Maroon dominating down low and getting the puck to the right spot in the ice to an open player in front. It's too bad that we have the Lucic contract because I'd love to bring Patty back otherwise. If he'd come cheap, I'd sign him anyway but I think that ship has sailed unfortunately.

 

[CupofOil]

I do think there's a point where you start to worry about this guy, especially given his pedigree. I'm not saying he needs to be lighting the world on fire but he's been pretty cold since 2018 started. Just 4 goals and 5 assists in 3 months. The Oilers need him to produce more than that.

He's been playing on the 3rd line most of those 3 months.
I have a hard time harshly criticizing a 19 year old Euro forward for not producing mainly on the 3rd line with no 1st unit PP time. I agree that there are some concerns to be had about his game and he really needs to be better next season but when it boils down to it, he's still a kid with a lot to learn.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Maroon was so underrated here and so strange as he gave his best here and showed the same sweet hands on a lot of plays. A big guy with hands is always going to be valuable. He skated well enough to get the job done.

One of the distortions that occurs to a fanbase when you have a McD is that an easy and lazy view could occur wherein everything else in comparison looks like junk. I would caution people on that distortion as it would probably make it difficult to view the rest of the team or to be able to do that without appreciable frustration.

Alas greatness can shine different lights and a lot of shadow. This much is true,

But in hockey Greats never get you there alone.

 

[bone]

So I can't critique him because of his age? What if this same scoring drought happens next year? Is the excuse going to be "he's 20"?

I think it is reasonable to let every player at minimum the length of their entry level contract to work out the warts in their game regardless of age, so next year is fair as well. That's not to say he can't be criticized, but I think they should be granted a little more rope before the real venom starts to fly, or shouts of "flop" come out.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

It feels like someone or some people are just trying to sow more discontent within the higher end players and the fans. Why is it Nuge v. Draisaitl? Can't they both be very good and different players. Can one be having a slight down season, Draisaitl, while the other is having a very good bounce back and chemistry with McDavid, Nuge. Why do we have to hate one of them?

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

Nobody in their right mind would trade Taylor Hall unless pressed to it. Oilers were losing for YEARS. None of their talented players had changed that... even McDavid. Taylor Hall had the most value. The value of ALL of their talents was depressed due to losing. IF, and it is IF, he also was having some discipline issues, it would only have made a bitter pill easier to swallow. Rumors be true, Larsson was regarded a very mature young professional and a talented player himself... like Nurse. No way NJ was trading him for badly damaged goods (Ebs) or questionable durability and offense (Nuge).

When it comes to Hall, another issue is that people are comparing MVP quality Hall to down year Larsson. The two years prior to the trade, and one year in Jersey afterwords, Hall was a ~60 point player. Still very good, but not the player that makes the trade brutally lopsided. If Hall keeps his play from this year up going forwards, than yeah NJ got the better end for sure. But this year's Hall wasn't the Hall we traded, and he wasn't this year's Hall his first year there either. Who knows exactly what happened, and what issues there may have been, but like you said, maybe he needed the kick in the pants to get his game going again.

Also, for all those that cite this as another example of Chia's incompetence, what about the 28 other GMs in the league that wouldn't offer more than Larsson quality player?

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

It feels like someone or some people are just trying to sow more discontent within the higher end players and the fans. Why is it Nuge v. Draisaitl? Can't they both be very good and different players. Can one be having a slight down season, Draisaitl, while the other is having a very good bounce back and chemistry with McDavid, Nuge. Why do we have to hate one of them?

A****ingmen! And why can't JP just be a young talented guy, who is still tying to find his way (and may never, but still way too early to judge)?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

He's been playing on the 3rd line most of those 3 months.
I have a hard time harshly criticizing a 19 year old Euro forward for not producing mainly on the 3rd line with no 1st unit PP time. I agree that there are some concerns to be had about his game and he really needs to be better next season but when it boils down to it, he's still a kid with a lot to learn.

With all due respect to him, JP should be leaving JJ in the dust. I really hope it's not hard wired into his head that every goal he scores has to be a beautiful one-timer.

I think he needs to re-invent his game a bit as it has evolved the past few years.

 

[Little Fury]

When it comes to Hall, another issue is that people are comparing MVP quality Hall to down year Larsson. The two years prior to the trade, and one year in Jersey afterwords, Hall was a ~60 point player. Still very good, but not the player that makes the trade brutally lopsided. If Hall keeps his play from this year up going forwards, than yeah NJ got the better end for sure. But this year's Hall wasn't the Hall we traded, and he wasn't this year's Hall his first year there either. Who knows exactly what happened, and what issues there may have been, but like you said, maybe he needed the kick in the pants to get his game going again.

Hall had two better seasons of 5 on 5 production than this one when he was in Edmonton, including his last year. The player you see this season was always there.

 

[Drivesaitl]

When it comes to Hall, another issue is that people are comparing MVP quality Hall to down year Larsson. The two years prior to the trade, and one year in Jersey afterwords, Hall was a ~60 point player. Still very good, but not the player that makes the trade brutally lopsided. If Hall keeps his play from this year up going forwards, than yeah NJ got the better end for sure. But this year's Hall wasn't the Hall we traded, and he wasn't this year's Hall his first year there either. Who knows exactly what happened, and what issues there may have been, but like you said, maybe he needed the kick in the pants to get his game going again.

Also, for all those that cite this as another example of Chia's incompetence, what about the 28 other GMs in the league that wouldn't offer more than Larsson quality player?

Its not mutually exclusive to think that the Oilers have bad management and that a lot of NHL clubs have bad management. I think hockey has still not come close to reaching stages of managerial competence exhibited in other leagues.

Even from the top in Bettman the NHL gets another pro sports leagues castoff and with much of his tenure here being post best before date.

The NHL, and its member teams is a poorly run league. Its easy for competent GM's and orgs to quickly rise to the top and sometimes stay there for decades. Even given a tightly capped league and homeostasis draft system. Everything in the NHL design is supposed to produce parity, but it doesn't really. The bad orgs still manage to be bad. Just so many that it muddies the water.

 

[Little Fury]

With all due respect to him, JP should be leaving JJ in the dust. I really hope it's not hard wired into his head that every goal he scores has to be a beautiful one-timer.

I think he needs to re-invent his game a bit as it has evolved the past few years.

Is it really that weird that a 23 year old with four years pro experience is slightly ahead of a 19 year old in his second year who can't even speak English?

Man if JP had a 15% SH% this season people would be losing their minds.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Is it really that weird that a 23 year old with four years pro experience is slightly ahead of a 19 year old in his second year who can't even speak English?

Man if JP had a 15% SH% this season people would be losing their minds.

It's a little strange yes. If JJ pans out even better than this that would be a huge boon.

But JP has much more skill to offer.

 

[Drivesaitl]

When it comes to Hall, another issue is that people are comparing MVP quality Hall to down year Larsson. The two years prior to the trade, and one year in Jersey afterwords, Hall was a ~60 point player. Still very good, but not the player that makes the trade brutally lopsided. If Hall keeps his play from this year up going forwards, than yeah NJ got the better end for sure. But this year's Hall wasn't the Hall we traded, and he wasn't this year's Hall his first year there either. Who knows exactly what happened, and what issues there may have been, but like you said, maybe he needed the kick in the pants to get his game going again.

Also, for all those that cite this as another example of Chia's incompetence, what about the 28 other GMs in the league that wouldn't offer more than Larsson quality player?

Taylor Hall; .90 career ppg. In his tenure in the NHL is 17th among all players in ppg (minimum set 200gp) and this considering he has NEVER played with an elite PMD, has never played on an elite team, has had less help in every way and yet is this high up. Most of the players higher than Hall have also been in their career peaks during the Taylor Hall time frame.


NHL.com - Stats

Interestingly, adjust the metric to 500GP (more illustrative of Taylor Hall time frame in NHL) and he's 9th place.

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Mr Positive]

Theres an old parlance that he who obtains the best player in the trade won the trade. That used to be considered as a clear barometer. In all 4 of the deals mentioned Chia quite clearly sold for less.

I look at team building from the perspective of building and adding to value. Its inane that a club that was loaded with winger assets just 2years ago now has the worst collection of wingers in the league. For all that loss we have one appreciable asset, Larsson.

I'd say most people now acknowledge that Strome will be a very good depth player for us going forward.

Besides, I wasn't disputing that he lost those trades. I gave explanation for it.

I also don't think the Boston situation has much to do with our situation. He was the GM of a contender. Those teams lose a lot more trades than they win. They have intense pressure to win in the moment, and like I said the cap is designed to make their lives miserable. Forsberg for Erat. All the Chicago deals. All the lost assets that contenders throw away at the deadline year after year for rentals. It's staggering how often the best teams lose the most trades. It's not even close.

I also think that looking at team building in terms of building up value is an outdated concept, and the best GMs have figured this out. I'm not saying player value is bad, just that focusing on it will lead to ruin.

The truth is that player value is extremely fluid, and that constructing the team should be the only focus. The reasoning for getting Larsson was not because Larsson's innate value added up to Hall's but because having Larsson would make players like Klefbom and Nurse play better than they really are. Some people use the word "glue" player, and those players are not measurable in terms of player value, and btw, GMs almost never trade them anymore. The days of loading up on player value like those failed Rangers teams with Jagr and Bure are over, but of course they were huge successes in terms of "winning" deals.

 

[Little Fury]

It's a little strange yes. If JJ pans out even better than this that would be a huge boon.

But JP has much more skill to offer.

JJ is hot, but I have a hard time believing he'll keep it up. That said, if he can be a cheap and effective bottom-sixer going forward that's about all you can hope for from a third round pick. Anything else is gravy.

As for JP, he's a project that much is clear. Hard not to like his toolbox, though.