Post-Game Talk: We win

[Drivesaitl]

I'd say most people now acknowledge that Strome will be a very good depth player for us going forward.

Besides, I wasn't disputing that he lost those trades. I gave explanation for it.

I also don't think the Boston situation has much to do with our situation. He was the GM of a contender. Those teams lose a lot more trades than they win. They have intense pressure to win in the moment, and like I said the cap is designed to make their lives miserable. Forsberg for Erat. All the Chicago deals. All the lost assets that contenders throw away at the deadline year after year for rentals. It's staggering how often the best teams lose the most trades. It's not even close.

I also think that looking at team building in terms of building up value is an outdated concept, and the best GMs have figured this out. I'm not saying player value is bad, just that focusing on it will lead to ruin.

The truth is that player value is extremely fluid, and that constructing the team should be the only focus. The reasoning for getting Larsson was not because Larsson's innate value added up to Hall's but because having Larsson would make players like Klefbom and Nurse play better than they really are. Some people use the word "glue" player, and those players are not measurable in terms of player value, and btw, GMs almost never trade them anymore. The days of loading up on player value like those failed Rangers teams with Jagr and Bure are over, but of course they were huge successes in terms of "winning" deals.

Very good post but I disagree with you especially now in the current time frame clubs should be looking at strong and clear cores. Because in the expansion drafts era its all that you know you have. Beyond the players you can protect nothing else matters. Thus its important to have the very best players now, more than ever, as anything else you could just lose for nothing.

Its possible I would see your position more in a different era or time frame but not in these expansion seasons.

The only thing that matters in that view is we lost pieces like Hall and Eberle and replaced them with Lucic, Larsson and many other players not really worth mentioning.

Its only the core players that you will protect that matter. So that the obtain the BPA in trade has rarely been more salient.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Strome has develop to a solid depth forward and a very good PKer. Last night on that late PK, he was very good to kill a lot of time.

 

[ToeMcDrag83]

It feels like someone or some people are just trying to sow more discontent within the higher end players and the fans. Why is it Nuge v. Draisaitl? Can't they both be very good and different players. Can one be having a slight down season, Draisaitl, while the other is having a very good bounce back and chemistry with McDavid, Nuge. Why do we have to hate one of them?

This is how it should be. We're exceedingly lucky to have both of these players on the roster in addition to McDavid.
Years of having no center depth to what we have now is pretty incredible.

It is unfortunate that standing in Nuge's corner is met with the same kind of backfire that standing in Draisaitl's corner elicits (and vice versa).

Combination of the complete team failure of this year (lion's share of the issue) which has us all pissed & scapegoat prowling and some snapshot in time samples drive a lot of why this has become a 'versus' discussion with sometimes vitriolic debate rather than a discussion of what both players bring.

Not a single doubt in my mind we are a better team with both of them in the lineup and moving either of them is a mistake.

The number one issue on the forwards is clearly the gutted winger depth, which is 100% on the GM.
Channel the anger to Chia everyone, not our best players.

 

[ToeMcDrag83]

One thing with respect to Keegan Lowe, say what you will about him, I liked his shooter mentality. He was throwing damn near everything to the net, I didn't mind seeing that. Rest of his game leaves a ton to be desired, but thought it was worth pointing out. Couple of our regulars could use that line of thinking back there.

 

[onetweasy]

Well, hard to get excited at the prospect of a pairing with a player that doesn't even look like he belongs in the league right now.

How WOULD I be big on Puljujarvi and why?

Everytime I see Dolts with Draisaitl it just makes me thing about Hall and Eberle *trades*.

I wonder if he thinks the same.

Give me a break - we are paying Drai elite level money and he should be doing everything in his power to drag his teamates along. You dont get paid $8.5M to ride shotgun.

It's amazing how you are so black and white when it comes to players. Is this just for the sake of debating on this site? .

Honestly, Drai has been pretty bad for the last 10 games and if its due to him pouting about linemates then this is a big problem.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

And people still question if pro sports or this league in general is fixed. Get your eyes checked. Expansion team winning a divison with over 100 points, getting the benefit of the doubt on most calls including one in a game where Neal smashed his stick on a goalies faced, knocked him down and the goal counted. A player with a bad reputation for embellishment and scummy play. Do you think hes getting that call playing for Vancouver?

The NHL is a farce.

 

[nabob]

ftr Draisaitl had a 4 pt game among those 10 games but is "checked out" consider the source.

Anyway heres this to weed out some more stuff that's being stated that Draisaitl is spending most of his time with McD. EV that just isn't the case. Drai has had a season long rotating list of wingers. (Also of note that Drai only got Maroon WITH McD and very rarely without. So that whenever Drai does not have McD/Maroon he had struggling wingers. A very long list of them. 2 struggling wingers at a time, usually.


Leon Draisaitl - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

He has played more time with McDavid and Maroon for forwards and Nurse & Larsson on D. He has had for the best possible players on the ice with him this season than any other players. Also your not taking into account his PP minutes and how poor he has been on the PP this season.

 

[Digger12]

Strome has develop to a solid depth forward and a very good PKer. Last night on that late PK, he was very good to kill a lot of time.

I'm OK with Strome embracing the role of 3rd line C and giving us a PK guy given his current price point, but I hope he improves on his faceoffs if that's going to be his role. He's under 45% for the year, and last night got absolutely schooled on the dot. If he can get to 50% or higher, that will make him even more valuable as a PKer.

 

[nabob]

Give me a break - we are paying Drai elite level money and he should be doing everything in his power to drag his teamates along. You dont get paid $8.5M to ride shotgun.

It's amazing how you are so black and white when it comes to players. Is this just for the sake of debating on this site? .

Honestly, Drai has been pretty bad for the last 10 games and if its due to him pouting about linemates then this is a big problem.

Exactly. People saying that him not putting in effort isn't a big deal are ridiculous. Unless he is injured there really is not excuse for him to pull the chute on his teammates.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

but I hope he improves on his faceoffs if that's going to be his role

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt here and if he knows this is his role, they re-sign him, that he'll make that a focus to become more effective in that role. I'm sure that will be impressed upon him in the exit interviews.

 

[Little Fury]

And people still question if pro sports or this league in general is fixed. Get your eyes checked. Expansion team winning a divison with over 100 points, getting the benefit of the doubt on most calls including one in a game where Neal smashed his stick on a goalies faced, knocked him down and the goal counted. A player with a bad reputation for embellishment and scummy play. Do you think hes getting that call playing for Vancouver?

The NHL is a farce.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

Maybe this would have worked if you lived in the year 2000 and not actually you know read the news about ref scandals in the NBA, european soccer, match fixing and organized crime in rugby and tennis.

Get a less outdated meme please your 2002 is showing. Or maybe you know, learn to read?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Give me a break - we are paying Drai elite level money and he should be doing everything in his power to drag his teamates along. You dont get paid $8.5M to ride shotgun.

It's amazing how you are so black and white when it comes to players. Is this just for the sake of debating on this site? .

Honestly, Drai has been pretty bad for the last 10 games and if its due to him pouting about linemates then this is a big problem.

Saying honest doesn't make it so, it doesn't make it true.

Drais's production outside of McD minutes is solid.

Lets hope the team doesn't manufacture similar absolute nonsense and have Drai be Hall2

Most of all I find it hilarious that Draisaitl is being categorized on the basis of a contract in the first year of contract when all this player did the previous two seasons is grossly exceed contractual worth.

We got our monies worth from Drai, by my count in excess of about 10M in the last 2 seasons relative to the other highly paid players on the club. (Not including McD of course)

But theres this nonstop shrieking here that Drai is making 8.5M. Its like people are actually angry about this.

Black and white would be demonstrated where people are exceedingly critical of this player, who happens to be a very good player, 2nd best on the team.

 

[Little Fury]

Maybe this would have worked if you lived in the year 2000 and not actually you know read the news about ref scandals in the NBA, european soccer, match fixing and organized crime in rugby and tennis.

If you watched any NHL hockey that wasn't involving the Oilers, you'd see that officiating is garbage all over. No need to resort to far-fetched conspiracy theories when simple incompetence is more than adequate.

Get a less outdated meme please your 2002 is showing. Or maybe you know, learn to read?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I sure hope management doesn't read these boards otherwise they'll stupidly think we want Drai gone.

 

[oXo Cube]

I sure hope management doesn't read these boards otherwise they'll stupidly think we want Drai gone.

These boards are a fart in the wind, but they definitely pay attention to fan opinions on relevant social media platforms, which is even worse.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

These boards are a fart in the wind, but they definitely pay attention to fan opinions on relevant social media platforms, which is even worse.

Has the Sun run their annual polls on who should stay and who should go yet?

 

[CupofOil]

Exactly. People saying that him not putting in effort isn't a big deal are ridiculous. Unless he is injured there really is not excuse for him to pull the chute on his teammates.

Who cares? It means nothing, absolutely nothing. These are meaningless games, what happens now has no bearing on what is going to happen next season and beyond.
Lots of established players energy level drops when their team is out of it. You and others are vastly overreacting and it's coming from the same folks who were defending Nuge during his horrific season last year in a season in which the games actually meant something, almost seems like a revenge thing.

Again, why does it have to be such extremes on this board? The biggest Nuge fans criticize Draisaitl every chance they get and go to every length to defend their guy, the biggest Draisaitl fans criticize Nuge every chance they get and go to every length to defend their guy. They're both Oilers, they're both good players, neither are perfect. Why do some have to go out of their way to harshly criticize one or the other? Criticism is fine but some of the comments I've been reading in GDT's and PGT's with regards to Drai's recent struggles are too much.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Who cares? It means nothing, absolutely nothing. These are meaningless games, what happens now has no bearing on what is going to happen next season and beyond.
Lots of established players energy level drops when their team is out of it. You and others are vastly overreacting and it's coming from the same folks who were defending Nuge during his horrific season last year in a season in which the games actually meant something, almost seems like a revenge thing.

Again, why does it have to be such extremes on this board? The biggest Nuge fans criticize Draisaitl every chance they get and go to every length to defend their guy, the biggest Draisaitl fans criticize Nuge every chance they get and go to every length to defend their guy. They're both Oilers, they're both good players, neither are perfect. Why do some have to go out of their way to harshly criticize one or the other? Criticism is fine but some of the comments I've been reading in GDT's and PGT's with regards to Drai's recent struggles are over the top.

Great contributions as always sir.

I don't think its as polarized as that though or that it should be. Its certainly possible, and should be, to applaud Nuge and Drai on what were good seasons. These 2 players were not the problems this year. They performed, and well. They both exceeded expectations this season. The odd thing is that Drai has exceeded expectations the past 3 seasons and theres all this distrust on the board in relation to the player. Its kind of uncanny.

But yeah, certainly the critique of Drai is way over the top. I even quoted several of the comments to feed it back to people to see if they could get what they were actually stating upon further reflection and that wasn't even had. The odd thing is that some posters that can have reasonable opinions on some things have been very polarized on finding things wrong with Drai's performance.

Again plenty to critique and navel gaze in regards to the team and lots of under performances. The list of these is easy. But to pass judgement on the players that have been good to great for this team is somehow more cathartic I guess. I think its venting. I can certainly understand it from the pov of frustration, we all are.

 

[rboomercat90]

This is absolute nonsense which you've bought hook line and sinker. Look closer into Seguins dads account of what transpired. The drinking was entirely overblown. From his knowledge it happened one time where it shouldn't have. Do your think your position on Seguin is valid? Accurate? More likely the scenario is that Seguin difficulty was exaggerated and amplified further to individuals earmarking the player for trade and being allowed to do that. Chia likely could have had more resistance in trading Seguin from org, shareholders, fans, without orchestrating some lame narrative on the why.
Further lifestyle issues in pro players are often sensationalized and in anycase were fans of the Oilers of the mid 80's that were the subject of a Sports Illustrated drug article so its kind of funny in perspective for anybody to think a kid going out for a few wobbly pops was a huge issue.
Elite Athletes could rarely have the kind of substance issues that some would allege them to. You simply can't play a sport like hockey at an elite level for long and be successful at it without having real focus, training, and dedication.

In anycase..

Years ago the Oilers gave a guy by the name of Joe Murphy a chance. (He had far more alleged issues from reports) It turned out to be a move that won us another SC (Murphy's contribution was very positive) and allowed the Oilers to be competitive 2 seasons longer than it would have been otherwise. I was a huge Joe Murphy fan and applauded the move all the way. What a player.

The reality in life is that young individuals can make mistakes.

As for "Favorites" I like players that go to the wall for the team and give it more than anybody thought they could. Its easy to have these kinds of players as favorites. Ask yourself one question. Isn't Leon Draisaitl a far better player than you would have thought he would have been 3 yrs ago? Theres only one answer to that, its yes, and its what every fan of any team should want. Players that exceed expectation. So wow, I love players that exceed expectation.

come at me bro

If we’re talking about stories from the eighties. I’m old enough to have heard all the stories about those dynasty players. My favourite was the one where the guys were in LA drinking with Martina Navratilova and she wanted to cut the night short because she had a match in the morning. The story goes that Semenko put his arm around her and told her not to worry because in his experience, you play better guilty.

The issue isn’t that you do it but when you do it. Some players truly do have problems. It didn’t go over well for Klima and Kocur when they were spotted at Goose Loonies in the wee hours of the morning on the eve of a playoff game. I don’t know how serious Seguin’s issues were but it was serious enough that the Bruins tired of it. It’s also not a surprise Seguin’s father tried to downplay it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

If we’re talking about stories from the eighties. I’m old enough to have heard all the stories about those dynasty players. My favourite was the one where the guys were in LA drinking with Martina Navratilova and she wanted to cut the night short because she had a match in the morning. The story goes that Semenko put his arm around her and told her not to worry because in his experience, you play better guilty.

The issue isn’t that you do it but when you do it. Some players truly do have problems. It didn’t go over well for Klima and Kocur when they were spotted at Goose Loonies in the wee hours of the morning on the eve of a playoff game. I don’t know how serious Seguin’s issues were but it was serious enough that the Bruins tired of it. It’s also not a surprise Seguin’s father tried to downplay it.

Its not a surprise that Seguins father down played it but he talked about it in depth. There were very long articles (a series of them) about how some of the stuff had been manufactured by the org. There were times Seguin was in the hotel when the team was stating he was not. Or times when he was alleged to be out drinking when his dad knew his whereabouts. On some occasions Seguins father was with him.

But the worst is that people furthered in the saga that Seguins father AGREED with the Bruins concerns and that was WHY Seguins father spoke out at length to clarify that he did nothing of the sort. Its that latter part that is truly despicable, that writers and fans have stated as corroborating proof that Seguins parents SHARED the concerns. They did not, and never did. I hope this clarifies the matter somewhat.

heh Klima scored arguably one of the biggest goals possible in an OT playoff game. Yeah, he had his moments but again a talent that was worth putting up with his stuff. The key thing being what the player can do on the ice.

But the other thing I disputed is that people made suggestions that Sequins alleged activity had influenced his play on the ice. He was amongst the best Bruins players for two seasons. He was young and improving. You just have patience with a player like that.

I had my moments of frustration with Hall immaturity, sure I did. But never wanted him gone because of it.

Finally, if the issue is only about when you do it then why is so much being made of Draisaitl not being at his best these last 8 games? Isn't this the ideal and perfect time to not be your best?

ps If I was on that Detroit Dead Things team and playing the superstar 80's Oilers in a playoff round drinking would seem to be about the logical thing to do. Spock might even approve..

c'mon, smile with me bro.

 

[rboomercat90]

I live in Boston. At the time literally across the street from the Garden. The Seguin stuff was not overblown.

It was also true that he's an exceptional talent that benefited from a fresh start. Same with Joe Murphy. Same with Taylor Hall. Sometimes a kid will need that to turn the page on... well.. being a kid. It's no biggie, every team needs to do it from time to time.

Nobody in their right mind would trade Taylor Hall unless pressed to it. Oilers were losing for YEARS. None of their talented players had changed that... even McDavid. Taylor Hall had the most value. The value of ALL of their talents was depressed due to losing. IF, and it is IF, he also was having some discipline issues, it would only have made a bitter pill easier to swallow. Rumors be true, Larsson was regarded a very mature young professional and a talented player himself... like Nurse. No way NJ was trading him for badly damaged goods (Ebs) or questionable durability and offense (Nuge).

I'm a huge Drai fan too... but it's pretty clear that he is heavily influenced by his mental state... highly competitive and self critical. That can lead to games where he's checked out. It also leads to complete dominance when he's checked in. We need to manage the good and the bad... just as he does. That's how he learns to be a professional. Not worried about him, but they say one's greatest strengths overplayed become a weakness. Leon's fire & perfectionist attributes can lead to him being frustrated.

What a great post. So much insight.

The majority of the people on this board criticizing Draisatl recognize what a tremendous player he is. Their criticism is only meant to discuss what he needs to do to get better. The few that are legimately taking shots are obscure board members and likely not Oiler fans to begin with. It’s a shame they’re being allowed to paint the rest with the same brush by some.

I think Draisatl down shifted his effort the last fifteen games or so as a lost season was winding down. I don’t think it’s an indictment of his character, just something that happened. I’m not going to pretend it didn’t happen either. He is self motivated and I expect he’ll use that next year. Talking about it doesn’t mean you’re running him out of town.

 

[bucks_oil]

Thanks for your contribution. Excellent post.

I will say in response though that its become a pro sports idea that pro athletes often require a change in scenery. So that its become an accepted mode of how it goes down. That several million buck players get moved instead of the far less qualified managers that make the decisions on the moves.

I'll even posit that its a dynamic pro sports should look at more. I wonder how many moves have some sort of perceived conflict somewhere in the decision base. In the boardroom videos of the Bruins it seems at least contagion of thought had occurred in relation to Seguin.

Pro sports has a very primitive idea about its assets. That if it appears you have problems with them you just move them whether than resolve them through other means, third party, counselling, remediation, mitigation etc. Needs to be remembered these are valuable assets. Far more valuable than the managers pulling the trigger. Those individuals should probably lose their jobs more often but now how it plays out. In pro sports its coaches and players getting the axe mostly.

Anyway thanks again for your comments. We might as well be discussing something here. Meaningless game 81 on the schedule isn't something people are talking about

Thanks for your comments, and I agree that it's a pretty sad state that we're having to talk about team/organizational dynamics rather than our first round playoff matchup.

1) I see the hazard in failing to maximize the value of your assets and cutting bait at the first sign of trouble. I honestly don't think that's what happens, but I do see how you could view it that way... that said:

2) Without trying to get too personal, we might be looking at it with a very personal lens. Your point of view sounds like one typical of a larger, more institutional organization. Where that type of HR support is 1) available and 2) valued. I work in a innovative start-up environment where there are plenty of highly competitive egos, VCs, investment bankers, and other highly trained professionals. I can just hear my boss saying "we don't have time for that crap"... so those attitudes you call primitive exist in my "modern, innovative" industry as well.

3) One of the reasons these, and I'm putting words in your mouth I know, but "low value add" execs get to where they are is i) because they actually played and dealt with these issues personally and/or ii) they have the people skills that allowed them to rise up in a highly competitive, ego-driven, business which is, frankly, male dominated (both by the numbers and the attitudes). It's clearly a hierarchy... and I'm sure they pride themselves on recognizing "good" aggression and "good" ego rather than "selfish" and "individual" traits... its necessary in building a proper team dynamic.

Anyway... that's at least how I see the environment... getting a whole lot of alphas to row in the same direction has always required/made use of heirarchy, (think of a row boat or an army) so it does make sense to me somewhat that players get moved often for reasons other than talent.

As a hockey player/team builder myself, I've also seen my team's lose a "better" player and gain a "lesser" player many times and still come out a better team. Any good team is going to have 25 good assets and you just can only invest so much time in any one of those assets until it becomes a "distraction".

I'm not saying that's what happened... I'm just saying I understand where the "impatience" you see comes from.

 

[bucks_oil]

What a great post. So much insight.

The majority of the people on this board criticizing Draisatl recognize what a tremendous player he is. Their criticism is only meant to discuss what he needs to do to get better. The few that are legimately taking shots are obscure board members and likely not Oiler fans to begin with. It’s a shame they’re being allowed to paint the rest with the same brush by some.

I think Draisatl down shifted his effort the last fifteen games or so as a lost season was winding down. I don’t think it’s an indictment of his character, just something that happened. I’m not going to pretend it didn’t happen either. He is self motivated and I expect he’ll use that next year. Talking about it doesn’t mean you’re running him out of town.

Totally fair.

I've actually only watched about 2 games since Draisaitl's last 4 point night, just became disinterested.

But you know... I think there is something to be said for the way you lose, the way you win, and the way you carry yourself on ice. Draisaitl sitting on the bench in San Jose last year, and McD coming by to tap his shoulder and bring him up told me what I needed to know about them both as players. That's a dynamic that will inspire others. Personal responsibility bordering toward despair coupled by a close friend who gives conviction and hope. It's very powerful... and never destructive if there is that balance in the team.

In contrast, a player that criticizes the coaching decisions, or the ref (too much), or his line mates... and I cast no aspersions here, because I can't have any direct knowledge of it... but those guys cause distraction, they destroy team confidence and they eventually "get gone".

I will also say: sometimes a guy can be in both categories... an environment, with time can bring out the best or the worst in a person's particular traits and that's why changing an environment can become necessary, especially in a high-emotion, impact sport.

 

[Soundwave]

Leon needs a good player to play with. He is not like McDavid where you can just throw anyone on his line and get production ... but not many players are *that* good.

Crosby, Malkin, McDavid and then the list gets real thin after that for players who basically produce with anyone on their wing.

This team was stupid to trade Hall, he and Draisaitl could've been a great duo and given the Oilers the best 2nd line in the league. When you have McDavid you're always going to have one of the better 1st lines too ... good job screwing that up Oilers.