Player Discussion: Vesalainen Thread

[Mortimer Snerd]

This lineup costs about 81m...

Perfetti Scheifele Ehlers 14m
Conner Dubois Konecny 20.5m
Svech Stastny Wheeler 11.5m
Gus Lowry Apples 5.25m
Hark/KV 2m


JoMo DeMelo 9.25m
Samberg Pionk 6.25m
Heinola Kovs 2m
Stanley 1m

Helle Comrie 7m

Not bad, but where did Konecny come from?

 

[Jets4Life]

Of the next 10 picks all except Bowers and Timmons, who can't stay healthy, have outperformed him this year by pretty good margins. There are plenty of others further down who are also outperforming him, some by very wide margins.

This is incorrect, no offense. Of the last 7 picks in the first round, perhaps Jake Oettinger is outperforming him in Dallas, but that's about it. The rest of the bunch are mainly bouncing from the AHL to the NHL or bottom 6 forwards. It's not like we missed a star player who is lighting the league on fire.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well we were bound to have a first round bust at some point.

Yes, but I would rather we could just call Stanley that (not a complete bust though) and have a KV power forward.

Speaking of Stan - everybody is taking KV as a starting point for our draft underperforming. We could start it with #18 in '16 instead. We could even bring up Laine's less than hoped for play. Certainly not a bust by any means, but we were forced to trade him.

Sure would have been nice to have taken whatever it was that Jarmo was offering for the trade up and just have taken PLD at #3. Hindsight. I wonder how this place would have reacted if Chevy had done that deal.

I think we have failed at developing KV. He should never have set foot on NHL ice these last 2 seasons. He still might never have made it, but he clearly wasn't/isn't ready yet.

 

[DRW204]

Not gonna embarrass any posters here by naming names but there were people on this board talking about how the Jets are "ruining" him by not playing him on the top 2 lines or playing him on the PP. Curious position to take.

I think he is Liiga bound next season. The Jets will probably still give him a QO to retain his rights though.

My favorite is when people complain he gets 10mins or less of TOI in games were losing, or he should play ahead of wheeler, Copp for example. Like why?

I think some of the hype for Ves was warranted. He did have solid numbers in Europe, and was the scoring leader and MVP of the u18s tournament which nearly every player that has received those accolades has been a V productive NHL player. Not saying he should be producing to the likes of Kane, Keller, Matthews, McDavid, hughes, kuch etc. But atleast a serviceable nhl producer.

I do think he needs to play with a better offensive play making C than Lowry though. However his production to date is abysmal. Should be able to accidentally stumble yourself to better numbers than he has put up.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Hopefully he busts like that other fin Pulj or something.

 

[surixon]

Yes, but I would rather we could just call Stanley that (not a complete bust though) and have a KV power forward.

Speaking of Stan - everybody is taking KV as a starting point for our draft underperforming. We could start it with #18 in '16 instead. We could even bring up Laine's less than hoped for play. Certainly not a bust by any means, but we were forced to trade him.

Sure would have been nice to have taken whatever it was that Jarmo was offering for the trade up and just have taken PLD at #3. Hindsight. I wonder how this place would have reacted if Chevy had done that deal.

I think we have failed at developing KV. He should never have set foot on NHL ice these last 2 seasons. He still might never have made it, but he clearly wasn't/isn't ready yet.

Well Stanley was always a long shot boom and bust pick. He's essentially what many pegged he'd be if he made it. A bottom pairing dmen. Not great but not exactly a bust either imo.

Laine was the hands down consensus 2nd overall pick that still potted 30 plus goals each year for us. He was definitely a flawed player but can't say a 30 plus goal 70 point player is a bust, warts and all.

Scheifele notwithstanding this organization seems to have some issues developing bigger skilled forwards. They seem to draft finesse types but always want to turn these players into the mythical power forward. I think a player needs to already have that physicality and gumption in his game for it to stick. In Laine and Ves's case they maybe should have embraced the more finesse parts of their game and worked with them on incorporating better shielding and hold up play using their size instead of wanting them to crash and bang.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

This is incorrect, no offense.

KV - 53 games - 2G, 1A, 3 pts
1, Poehling - 48, 5, 8, 13
2, Oettinger - 42 games, .914
3, Frost - 45, 3, 9, 12
4, Bowers - bust
5, Jokiharju - 52, 3, 12, 15
6, Tolvanen - 68, 9, 12, 21
7, Kostin - 40, 4, 5, 9
8, Timmins - broken again
9, Lind - 16, 1, 4, 5 - good production in the AHL
10, Hague - 51, 4, 10, 14

What part is incorrect?

 

[10Ducky10]

Not bad, but where did Konecny come from?

Dillon, Schmidt, 2nd and 4th.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well Stanley was always a long shot boom and bust pick. He's essentially what many pegged he'd be if he made it. A bottom pairing dmen. Not great but not exactly a bust either imo.

Laine was the hands down consensus 2nd overall pick that still potted 30 plus goals each year for us. He was definitely a flawed player but can't say a 30 plus goal 70 point player is a bust, warts and all.

Scheifele notwithstanding this organization seems to have some issues developing bigger skilled forwards. They seem to draft finesse types but always want to turn these players into the mythical power forward. I think a player needs to already have that physicality and gumption in his game for it to stick. In Laine and Ves's case they maybe should have embraced the more finesse parts of their game and worked with them on incorporating better shielding and hold up play using their size instead of wanting them to crash and bang.

Yeah, and I said Stan is not a bust.

And Laine I said is "not a bust by any means". But neither was exactly a successful pick where they were taken.

What I saw in clips of KV, he was what I would call a power forward. I may not use that term the same way as some. To me it means a guy with the size and the will to go where he wants, powering through. Not necessarily crashing and banging, unless someone gets in their way. I thought I saw that in Ves. I don't think he was a defensive F and that is what Jets (Maurice?) seems to have wanted from him. Like another Lowry, except on the wing.

As for thinking the game, if he just skates up and down his wing, reacting instinctively to take advantage of opportunities, he doesn't need to think too much.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Dillon, Schmidt, 2nd and 4th.

I think that gets the phone slammed down on you.
But if you can get Philly to cooperate, I take that all day.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

This is incorrect, no offense. Of the last 7 picks in the first round, perhaps Jake Oettinger is outperforming him in Dallas, but that's about it. The rest of the bunch are mainly bouncing from the AHL to the NHL or bottom 6 forwards. It's not like we missed a star player who is lighting the league on fire.

Getting 3, 4, 5 times as many points in the same or fewer games may not be lighting the league on fire but it is way outproducing him. Only Cole Lind spent more time in the AHL than the NHL this year. Most of the next 10 spent the whole season in the NHL.

I didn't say we missed a star player who is setting the league on fire. I said 8 of the next 10 are out producing him by wide margins.

We missed out on Oettinger. Jokiharju and Hague both look like becoming top 4 Dmen. A couple of the F look like future top 6 players.

That is only among the next 10. If we go farther down there are quite a few better than those.

You might be able to defend the pick based on what was visible at the time. You can't defend it based on results so far.

 

[TS Quint]

This lineup costs about 81m...

Perfetti Scheifele Ehlers 14m
Conner Dubois Konecny 20.5m
Svech Stastny Wheeler 11.5m
Gus Lowry Apples 5.25m
Hark/KV 2m


JoMo DeMelo 9.25m
Samberg Pionk 6.25m
Heinola Kovs 2m
Stanley 1m

Helle Comrie 7m

Wow is that ever a barf bag of defensemen.

 

[snowkiddin]

Not bad, but where did Konecny come from?

Probably from Philadelphia

 

[Jets4Life]

Getting 3, 4, 5 times as many points in the same or fewer games may not be lighting the league on fire but it is way outproducing him. Only Cole Lind spent more time in the AHL than the NHL this year. Most of the next 10 spent the whole season in the NHL.

I didn't say we missed a star player who is setting the league on fire. I said 8 of the next 10 are out producing him by wide margins.

We missed out on Oettinger. Jokiharju and Hague both look like becoming top 4 Dmen. A couple of the F look like future top 6 players.

That is only among the next 10. If we go farther down there are quite a few better than those.

You might be able to defend the pick based on what was visible at the time. You can't defend it based on results so far.

You are exaggerating. Besides, it looks like Samberg could be one of the best picks in round 2, so it evens out. After puck #20, it's all a game of hit-and-miss anyway. It looks like the Jets missed. Vesalainen at the ti.e, was an excellent pick,especially at the conclusion of the the 2017-18 season. He just never had the heart to elevate his game. Shame, really.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Probably from Philadelphia

I knew someone would say that.
Just couldn't resist, couldja.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You are exaggerating. Besides, it looks like Samberg could be one of the best picks in round 2, so it evens out. After puck #20, it's all a game of hit-and-miss anyway. It looks like the Jets missed. Vesalainen at the ti.e, was an excellent pick,especially at the conclusion of the the 2017-18 season. He just never had the heart to elevate his game. Shame, really.

How am I exaggerating? I stated factual information only.

Other than that, I don't know what point you are trying to make. Right now, Vesalainen looks like a bust. There were plenty of more successful picks taken after him. Facts.

Why he is busting is unknown. He certainly did look promising early on. Yes, a shame.

 

[Duke749]

How am I exaggerating? I stated factual information only.

Other than that, I don't know what point you are trying to make. Right now, Vesalainen looks like a bust. There were plenty of more successful picks taken after him. Facts.

Why he is busting is unknown. He certainly did look promising early on. Yes, a shame.

The type of statements where you say guys have 3-5 times as many points when we’re dealing very small numbers, while accurate, is being a bit deceptive. I mean if Ves went on a hot streak in a week he could half that or more easily.

Doesn’t change your overall point that most of those other guys are at least a little further along and some quite a bit. I think we’re all disappointed in his development and expected more then this.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The type of statements where you say guys have 3-5 times as many points when we’re dealing very small numbers, while accurate, is being a bit deceptive. I mean if Ves went on a hot streak in a week he could half that or more easily.

Doesn’t change your overall point that most of those other guys are at least a little further along and some quite a bit. I think we’re all disappointed in his development and expected more then this.

I see your point - but I didn't intend it as deceptive and I don't think it is. The guys with 3-5 times his points are not setting the league on fire. But they are succeeding whereas Ves is not. It could still change but as of now, I would take any one of those players over him.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Vesalainen is a interesting note in how a player can ruin their NHL development.

During the 2018/19 season he decided he needed to go back home to play in the KHL with Jokerit. The Jets didn't want that. They felt he was starting to come around after playing with the Moose to the NA style of game. Well agents got involved and he ended up back in the KHL.

He came back the following year and played like he had no idea how to play on small ice. He wasn't shooting and eventually over the course of a couple of years lost all confidence in his play.

Look at his demotion right now. The guy isn't producing and he really should be. He has all the tools to do so but no toolbox right now.

So what do you do? Typically guys like him getting traded for another underperformer and you see if that helps. But usually it doesn't and he ends up back in the Finnish elite league.

I am not a fan of the KHL. It isn't the SEL or the FEL. It is terrible IMO if you want to try to be a better NA player. That is not to say you can't be successful playing there then coming here but going back and forth like he did at what I consider a critical junction in his development path was a very bad idea. It will likely cost us our real first bust in the 1st round and cost him NHL dollars in the future.

While the door isn't completely shut for him, he would likely need to change his game to get a spot in the NHL in the future. Be consistent and play physical while being defensively sound. Contribute at a bottom 6 level. Look at a guy like Barbashev, exploded this year offensively after years of being a solid bottom 6 player.

 

[Huffer]

Too bad about Vesalainen. I seem to remember he was really great at the U18's, and was even supposed to be drafted much higher than he was.

Doubtful he has much value, but I'd wonder if there is an org that would take him thinking they might get lucky.

 

[Guffman]

We should trade him to Columbus so that the Columbus media can all ask him if he knows Laine personally (just like our media did when we drafted him).

 

[DRW204]

Too bad about Vesalainen. I seem to remember he was really great at the U18's, and was even supposed to be drafted much higher than he was.

Doubtful he has much value, but I'd wonder if there is an org that would take him thinking they might get lucky.

He was. MVP and scoring leader. The players that have won that have gone on to be great nhl players.

 

[Jets4Life]

We missed out on Oettinger. Jokiharju and Hague both look like becoming top 4 Dmen. A couple of the F look like future top 6 players.

That is only among the next 10. If we go farther down there are quite a few better than those.

You might be able to defend the pick based on what was visible at the time. You can't defend it based on results so far.

I am not defending the KV pick. However at the time, it looked as through the Jets had a potential 1st liner, especially after his year in Europe. I guess he just did not have the drive and determination to reach his true potential. Anyway, all the players you mention are 22-23, and still relatively unproven. I guess we will see what they are capable 3 years down the road. He'll, Samberg is looking like a solid pick.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

FYI Hindsight sucks donkey bawls

Who cares who you could of or should have drafted. All that matters is what you learned after each draft on how not to make mistakes with players you draft in the future

 

[RustyCat]

Vesalainen is a interesting note in how a player can ruin their NHL development.

During the 2018/19 season he decided he needed to go back home to play in the KHL with Jokerit. The Jets didn't want that. They felt he was starting to come around after playing with the Moose to the NA style of game. Well agents got involved and he ended up back in the KHL.

He came back the following year and played like he had no idea how to play on small ice. He wasn't shooting and eventually over the course of a couple of years lost all confidence in his play.

Look at his demotion right now. The guy isn't producing and he really should be. He has all the tools to do so but no toolbox right now.

So what do you do? Typically guys like him getting traded for another underperformer and you see if that helps. But usually it doesn't and he ends up back in the Finnish elite league.

I am not a fan of the KHL. It isn't the SEL or the FEL. It is terrible IMO if you want to try to be a better NA player. That is not to say you can't be successful playing there then coming here but going back and forth like he did at what I consider a critical junction in his development path was a very bad idea. It will likely cost us our real first bust in the 1st round and cost him NHL dollars in the future.

While the door isn't completely shut for him, he would likely need to change his game to get a spot in the NHL in the future. Be consistent and play physical while being defensively sound. Contribute at a bottom 6 level. Look at a guy like Barbashev, exploded this year offensively after years of being a solid bottom 6 player.

This career flow reminds me somewhat of Burmistrov. He had shortcomings but his upside was exciting to consider under the right guidance. I think the KHL ruined his development as well.