Very Early Redraft

[zharkenby]

So just to be clear:

Do you think that 17(6 goals) points in 15 games for a forward in SHL is so much better than 10(6 goals) points in 10 games in Liiga as a defenseman that the rankings should be switched around? Not to mention Heiskanen is a year younger than Pettersson.

Do you think that being PPG in Liiga as a defenseman is commonplace or something?

The last defenseman to be at least at a PPG pace in Liiga is Erik Karlsson in 2012-2013 with 34 points in 30 games. Are you familiar with him?

Amount of other Defensemen at or above Heiskanen's pace in Liiga since 2000: 2

Amount of other Forwards at or above Pettersson's pace in SHL since 2000: 24


And of course, you also seem to think that 17 points(6 goals) in 15 games in SHL(as u 20 player) is more impressive than having 25 points(14 goals) in 27 games in KHL(as a u19 player). Can you confirm that that also is something you're saying?

Roasted.

 

[docbenton]

I think Tolvanen is clearly ahead of Pettersson in terms of impact at this time, but not because of the points or the league. He's just quicker and more dynamic. Pettersson you're still looking at the upside, a lot of development still to happen there even though he's picking up some points.

That said, the KHL is not clearly better than the SHL and certainly not the AHL. Any league where Linden Vey is your leading scorer by a wide margin is by definition a joke.

 

[ijuka]

Any league where Linden Vey is your leading scorer by a wide margin is by definition a joke.

Such a wide margin. 2 points more with 4 more games played.

Think about who's the chicken and who's the egg with Dawes - Vey.

 

[Snowsii]

I think Tolvanen is clearly ahead of Pettersson in terms of impact at this time, but not because of the points or the league. He's just quicker and more dynamic. Pettersson you're still looking at the upside, a lot of development still to happen there even though he's picking up some points.

That said, the KHL is not clearly better than the SHL and certainly not the AHL. Any league where Linden Vey is your leading scorer by a wide margin is by definition a joke.

Im sorry, but KHL is clearly better than SHL.. SHL / AHL and Liiga are 3-5 place.. and you guys hang on to this "leading scorer" thing.. Just like every league havent had that kind odd early season leader.

And "by wide margin" You just made yourself laughable.. Did you even bother to check out the stats? As Ijuka said; only by 2 points and more games played..

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

That said, the KHL is not clearly better than the SHL and certainly not the AHL. Any league where Linden Vey is your leading scorer by a wide margin is by definition a joke.

So every league not named NHL is a joke? This Linden Vey argument is a joke. Let me break it down for you and all the others who are clueless af. -------------------------------------------------------------- He plays with Nigel Dawes who put up 28p in 19 games in the AHL before he went to the KHL. This is his 7th season, it's his best scoring so far. He hasn't been able to score anywhere near his current rate compared to his first seasons, nor compared to his AHL production where he once scored at almost 2.0 ppg rate. Conclusion: they clearly are feeding off from each other. Also this could be somewhat anomaly, like it was with Steve Moses. Also take a look at Kovalchuk's production; it didn't exactly skyrocket compared to what it was in the NHL in his last years, but it took off after he got Datsyuk as his linemate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's check the actual figures (should be as objective as possible). Traktor Chelyabinsk have the lowest budget in the KHL: they would rank as the third highest in the SHL. Average team budget in the KHL: around €24 million / in the SHL: around €7 million. This very much suggests that the KHL is, in fact, "clearly better" than the SHL. And it is if you bothered to actually watch it and make a comparison.

 

[kelsier]

Right now in Tolvanen absolutely deserves to be in the top three with Heiskanen and Hischier based on the performance. After these three I would say it's anyone game between Pettersen, Makar and Nolan. Should we look at the top three European prospects Tolvanen, Heiskanen and Pettersson, the latter two have by far smaller sample size (Eeli 27 games, Miro 10 games and Elias 15 games). I've had Eeli in top 3 based on his KHL showings alone but I've been hesitant adding much noise to it prior to the EHL tournament where Tolvanen was invited and Pettersson was not. In this tournament he didn't only show he belongs, but he was arguably the best Finnish forward in those games. Against Russia (the first game) he didn't play much but against Sweden and Canada he was almost unstoppable. Now scoring on an unheard of pace in the KHL for a 18 year old is alone pretty crazy but being able to show you already are one of the best forwards in the Europe in a tournament that has all the best European players (apart from few exceptions) pretty much seals it for me. He was even better than Heiskanen in these games in my opinion by playing pretty much flawless game and making little mistakes. So here is my top six at the moment:

1) Heiskanen (looks like one of the best if not the best defense prospects of the recent years)
2) Hischier (playing and succeeding in the NHL warrants the draft status)
3) Tolvanen (insane production in the KHL and thriving against the best players in the continent)
4) Pettersson (absolutely fantastic start for a season in SEL)
5) Makar (one of the most dynamic and the most skilled players in the draft)
6) Nolan (can already play in the toughest league in the planet, but has trouble staying healthy)

Of course it is so early that anything can change and we might see someone entirely unexpected prospect being crowned as the best player of 2017 draft year in lets say five to seven years from today. However as of today I think these three are pulling away from the others followed up by Pettersson and Makar. Nolan needs to stay healthy to stay in the game.

 

[Dijay]

It's absolutely impossible to compare the 2 nhlers (Patrick & Hischier) with other 2017 draft players.
The NHL is wayyyyyyy better than any other league.
Look at Shipachyov, Damien Brunner etc. Terrific players in their league, not very good at nhl level.
To me it's simply not possible to rank anyone above Nico and Nolan.

 

[Sawchuk]

As many have suggested, it certainly is difficult to compare prospects in different leagues. (This is part of what makes the speculation fun though!)

Why don't we try to just rank league by league to begin with?

I'm not seeing as much talk about the CHL here. Would Glass still be the #1 choice?
Also, what about the goalies... I don't think I've seen any mentioned as possible movers into the first round.

 

[docbenton]

So every league not named NHL is a joke? This Linden Vey argument is a joke. Let me break it down for you and all the others who are clueless af. -------------------------------------------------------------- He plays with Nigel Dawes who put up 28p in 19 games in the AHL before he went to the KHL. This is his 7th season, it's his best scoring so far. He hasn't been able to score anywhere near his current rate compared to his first seasons, nor compared to his AHL production where he once scored at almost 2.0 ppg rate. Conclusion: they clearly are feeding off from each other. Also this could be somewhat anomaly, like it was with Steve Moses. Also take a look at Kovalchuk's production; it didn't exactly skyrocket compared to what it was in the NHL in his last years, but it took off after he got Datsyuk as his linemate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's check the actual figures (should be as objective as possible). Traktor Chelyabinsk have the lowest budget in the KHL: they would rank as the third highest in the SHL. Average team budget in the KHL: around €24 million / in the SHL: around €7 million. This very much suggests that the KHL is, in fact, "clearly better" than the SHL. And it is if you bothered to actually watch it and make a comparison.

I thought someone might bring up Nigel Dawes. The mighty Nigel Dawes, who in his magical season you cited above, was tied for 5th in AHL scoring with 2 other players. Either he's having a breakout year at age 32 playing along with star player Linden Vey; or, he's playing a league that's at best on par with the AHL, competing against former NHL stars on the way to retirement like Kovalchuk and Datsyuk and where probably the guy with the most upside is an 18 year old from Finland.

As for the differnce in payroll, the balancing factor is that foreigners happen to want to live in places like Sweden and Switzerland...the AHL while existing in some unexciting places is seen as the closest path to the NHL.

 

[Saekk]

I thought someone might bring up Nigel Dawes. The mighty Nigel Dawes, who in his magical season you cited above, was tied for 5th in AHL scoring with 2 other players. Either he's having a breakout year at age 32 playing along with star player Linden Vey; or, he's playing a league that's at best on par with the AHL, competing against former NHL stars on the way to retirement like Kovalchuk and Datsyuk and where probably the guy with the most upside is an 18 year old from Finland.

As for the differnce in payroll, the balancing factor is that foreigners happen to want to live in places like Sweden and Switzerland...the AHL while existing in some unexciting places is seen as the closest path to the NHL.

You are hilariously delusional if you actually think KHL isn't a way better league than SHL.

 

[ijuka]

It's absolutely impossible to compare the 2 nhlers (Patrick & Hischier) with other 2017 draft players.
The NHL is wayyyyyyy better than any other league.
Look at Shipachyov, Damien Brunner etc. Terrific players in their league, not very good at nhl level.
To me it's simply not possible to rank anyone above Nico and Nolan.

30min sample size...

And why do you look at these yet decide to ignore players like Dadonov and Panarin? Dadonov came from KHL and is a PPG player in NHL.

It's very possible to rank players especially above Patrick. His NHL season hasn't even been impressive, sheesh.

 

[ITM]

Yes I know its stupidly early. But solely based off what we've seen since the 2017 draft how would you redraft the top 10?

...the only justification needed to say and do anything these days.

We're not even a quarter of the way into the season...Can we "very early redraft" topics too?

Take William Nylander...Very early redraft him and he's nowhere near where he ends up after a reasonable amount of time to acclimate to the NHL game. Neither's Brayden Point...And Dylan Larkin's all but the second coming of Steve Yzerman at that early interval.

Let's sticky this as a cautionary exercise of how imprudent it is to conclude on talent that always needs time to grow into a professional game that demands more respect than 20 games in to translate potential from one level to the next.

 

[deejb]

It's absolutely impossible to compare the 2 nhlers (Patrick & Hischier) with other 2017 draft players.
The NHL is wayyyyyyy better than any other league.

It's absolutely impossible to compare nhlers with other 2010 draft players. Skinner put up 31g 63p in NHL, and you trying to say that Tarasenko guy can be better than him. LOL.
It's absolutely impossible to compare nhlers with other 2011 draft players. Kucherov will be better, than RNH? LMAO.
... 2012... Forsberg>Yakupov? Are you insane?
2013 Buchnevich>Nichushkin? Just stop!

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

I thought someone might bring up Nigel Dawes. The mighty Nigel Dawes, who in his magical season you cited above, was tied for 5th in AHL scoring with 2 other players. Either he's having a breakout year at age 32 playing along with star player Linden Vey; or, he's playing a league that's at best on par with the AHL, competing against former NHL stars on the way to retirement like Kovalchuk and Datsyuk and where probably the guy with the most upside is an 18 year old from Finland.

As for the differnce in payroll, the balancing factor is that foreigners happen to want to live in places like Sweden and Switzerland...the AHL while existing in some unexciting places is seen as the closest path to the NHL.

As if the SHL isn't a retirement league for the former NHLers... Kovalchuk could still play in the NHL tho. Since you seem quite stubborn to admit the obvious: how do you explain that guys like Tarasenko, Panarin and Kucherov couldn' really produce anything close to Pettersson at the same age? In fact Panarin and Kucherov weren't even regulars in the KHL. Yep yep, the SHL is clearly on the same level lol.

 

[cgf]

You are hilariously delusional if you actually think KHL isn't a way better league than SHL.

Nah, he's right. Just look at bums like Radulov & Panarin who were scoring 15 points a game in russia, but can't even hit PPG in the NHL.

 

[ijuka]

As if the SHL isn't a retirement league for the former NHLers... Kovalchuk could still play in the NHL tho. Since you seem quite stubborn to admit the obvious: how do you explain that guys like Tarasenko, Panarin and Kucherov couldn' really produce anything close to Pettersson at the same age? In fact Panarin and Kucherov weren't even regulars in the KHL. Yep yep, the SHL is clearly on the same level lol.

I'm still waiting for examples of PPG KHL players who the season after struggled to produce in SHL - The opposite exists in spades.

 

[Luddowich]

1. The KHL is undoubtedly better than the SHL, the SHL undoubtedly better than Liiga and Liiga and the AHL is close can't really comment.

2. The only one who should be going higher at this point is Tolvanen and Lukas Elvenes the rest should be same seeing how we're 2 months in, lol.
Remember when Sergachev was a bust last year?

 

[GetFocht]

KHL is quickly becoming of the weakest Pro leagues,

to put things in perspective, Linden Vey, Cam Barker, and Philip Larsen tear up that league.

 

[docbenton]

As if the SHL isn't a retirement league for the former NHLers... Kovalchuk could still play in the NHL tho. Since you seem quite stubborn to admit the obvious: how do you explain that guys like Tarasenko, Panarin and Kucherov couldn' really produce anything close to Pettersson at the same age? In fact Panarin and Kucherov weren't even regulars in the KHL. Yep yep, the SHL is clearly on the same level lol.

Player development. They were young guys when they came over, they outgrew the KHL much like players outgrow the AHL. I don't obsess over points alone, as I'm sure you don't, I already said I think Tolvanen is a bigger impact player right now even though his production is lower. I only said the KHL is not CLEARLY better than the SHL, but you could convince me that it's plausible. I do take exception to those who say the KHL is definitely better than the AHL, I feel pretty strongly that's not true, if anything they are on par and that might be generous to the KHL. Maybe at some point in history it was stronger, but not now.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Bratt?

 

[member 105785]

Bratt?

Literally wasn't even drafted in the year of this thread's suggested redraft

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

I only said the KHL is not CLEARLY better than the SHL, but you could convince me that it's plausible. I do take exception to those who say the KHL is definitely better than the AHL, I feel pretty strongly that's not true, if anything they are on par and that might be generous to the KHL. Maybe at some point in history it was stronger, but not now.

Is that enough to convince you?

 

[Snowsii]

I thought someone might bring up Nigel Dawes. The mighty Nigel Dawes, who in his magical season you cited above, was tied for 5th in AHL scoring with 2 other players. Either he's having a breakout year at age 32 playing along with star player Linden Vey; or, he's playing a league that's at best on par with the AHL, competing against former NHL stars on the way to retirement like Kovalchuk and Datsyuk and where probably the guy with the most upside is an 18 year old from Finland.

As for the differnce in payroll, the balancing factor is that foreigners happen to want to live in places like Sweden and Switzerland...the AHL while existing in some unexciting places is seen as the closest path to the NHL.

Please stop.. You obvilously dont even follow KHL, if you think Kovalchuck is on his way to retirement.. LOL!!

 

[VoidCreature]

No reason to have anyone above Nico right now. Currently producing more points/60 than every recent first overall pick not named McDavid.

 

[docbenton]

Is that enough to convince you?

Of course not. There are so many things wrong with conversions like this and the way they are drawn from the data. If only to mention one thing, consider: who actually comes from the KHL to play in the NHL? Usually only talented young players on a sharp development curve, then a few stars who think they have a decent shot. Who comes from the AHL? Pretty much anybody, filling in for injuries, etc., including large numbers of wily veterans who have figured out the AHL but of course aren't going to be scorers in the NHL.

Anyway I feel like I've done enough to distract from the topic of the thread, I'm going bow out of the league discussion here.