Very Early Redraft

[ijuka]

KHL is quickly becoming of the weakest Pro leagues,

to put things in perspective, Linden Vey, Cam Barker, and Philip Larsen tear up that league.

Looked at who is tearing up the other leagues?

 

[Joey Moss]

Necas, Yamamoto definite risers

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

Anyway I feel like I've done enough to distract from the topic of the thread, I'm going bow out of the league discussion here.

Sure pal... you "bow out" because you can't admit that you lost this debate fair and square. Though I don't even know why I'm wasting my time here trying to explain someone why the KHL is easily the 2nd best league in the world, since that should be obvious to everyone who claims to be a hockey fan in 2017. But hey, whatever you want to believe in your delusions.

 

[Snowsii]

Of course not. There are so many things wrong with conversions like this and the way they are drawn from the data. If only to mention one thing, consider: who actually comes from the KHL to play in the NHL? Usually only talented young players on a sharp development curve, then a few stars who think they have a decent shot. Who comes from the AHL? Pretty much anybody, filling in for injuries, etc., including large numbers of wily veterans who have figured out the AHL but of course aren't going to be scorers in the NHL.

Anyway I feel like I've done enough to distract from the topic of the thread, I'm going bow out of the league discussion here.

i wonder why

Maybe it's because, AHL teams are owned by NHL teams.. Of course they fill an injury from there. After all, those players are allready under contract with NHL teams.

 

[kelsier]

I think Tolvanen is clearly ahead of Pettersson in terms of impact at this time, but not because of the points or the league. He's just quicker and more dynamic. Pettersson you're still looking at the upside, a lot of development still to happen there even though he's picking up some points.

That said, the KHL is not clearly better than the SHL and certainly not the AHL. Any league where Linden Vey is your leading scorer by a wide margin is by definition a joke.

KHL not being clearly better than SHL is non-sense. How often do you watch KHL or do you watch it at all? I have FEL, SEL and KHL in my radar (along with the NHL). While there are some punch bag teams in the KHL that might struggle in the two other leagues, the average level is still clearly better, that's not really even up for discussion. What's best about it, you don't even have to watch the games in order to "get it", the average salary tells the story (the best players in Europe tend to jump to Russia running after the $). Here's a newsflash:

"At the moment, the average salary in the KHL is 2.6 times greater than in European leagues."

Dmitry Chernyshenko: "Optimal size of the KHL is 24 clubs"

The KHL is also tightening the ring of teams and dropping the total by 4 where the weakest teams are cast out and it will further strengthen the leverage compared to other teams in the Europe. Also, if you think for a second that AHL is on par with KHL. It isn't. It's much closer to FEL & SEL.

The only thing there's to agree with you is your assessment of Tolvanen. While I think for a 18 year old defender scoring on PPG pace (with 7 goals in 11 games) at FEL is absolutely nuts, this followed by another 18 year old forward playing SEL with PPG+ is almost as crazy, I would weight neither achievements in the same category as what Tolvanen is doing today. His scoring pace is at the moment unheard of in the second toughest hockey league in the world. That in my books slots him in the league of his own what comes to achieving by NHL draft 2017 prospects who are playing in the Europe. That's not to say I would take him over Heiskanen in a re-draft but nonetheless. Solely because franchise defensemen don't grow in the trees and I view him as one moving forward.

 

[Dijay]

It's absolutely impossible to compare nhlers with other 2010 draft players. Skinner put up 31g 63p in NHL, and you trying to say that Tarasenko guy can be better than him. LOL.
It's absolutely impossible to compare nhlers with other 2011 draft players. Kucherov will be better, than RNH? LMAO.
... 2012... Forsberg>Yakupov? Are you insane?
2013 Buchnevich>Nichushkin? Just stop!

We are speaking about the 2017 draft, not 2012. The development of each player take a different time with a different ceiling.
Training camp was 2 months ago. Only 2 players were able to play at NHL level.
Why Heiskanen is not playing in the (not very good) Dallas Defence if he deserves 1 oa?
Why Petterson is not playing with the canucks, who have litterally only one good scoring line?
The fact is that there is a ravine between NHL and euro leagues/AHL.

 

[kelsier]

We are speaking about the 2017 draft, not 2012. The development of each player take a different time with a different ceiling.
Training camp was 2 months ago. Only 2 players were able to play at NHL level.
Why Heiskanen is not playing in the (not very good) Dallas Defence if he deserves 1 oa?
Why Petterson is not playing with the canucks, who have litterally only one good scoring line?
The fact is that there is a ravine between NHL and euro leagues/AHL.

Heiskanen got injured just before the camp so what were they supposed to do? Throw him in on the rink without a clue how he could take it? Now we can be pretty sure Miro would've made the roster if he was healthy. Not a chance someone like Lindell is the better player even as things stand today. He had bad luck but in the long run it really doesn't mean a thing.

 

[docbenton]

i wonder why

Maybe it's because, AHL teams are owned by NHL teams.. Of course they fill an injury from there. After all, those players are allready under contract with NHL teams.

Of course that's why, but you're not following my reasoning...the point was that a much more diverse population of players come from AHL to the NHL that get factored into the conversion score compared to players coming from the KHL to the NHL, particular skewing more toward veterans who are not likely to take a step in development or be scorers at higher levels. The players who come from the KHL to the NHL are generally young players who are likely to become much better players over a summer, and players who come over with the hope that they will be scorers...not many come over to try and make it as grinders, even though I'm sure there are productive KHL players who have the skillset to be decent NHL grinders (but not productive) - they generally don't come over.

As for that other guy...if you're so interested in the topic make a thread titled: the KHL is clearly the second best league in the world. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people other than me who will explain to you, using the same clear arguments I've made, why you're delusional (e.g. Vey and Dawes would not be leading the AHL in scoring). This isn't the place for that.

 

[ijuka]

We are speaking about the 2017 draft, not 2012. The development of each player take a different time with a different ceiling.
Training camp was 2 months ago. Only 2 players were able to play at NHL level.
Why Heiskanen is not playing in the (not very good) Dallas Defence if he deserves 1 oa?
Why Petterson is not playing with the canucks, who have litterally only one good scoring line?
The fact is that there is a ravine between NHL and euro leagues/AHL.

Do some research before asking something like this.

He would be playing with them if he hadn't gotten himself injured, is my opinion.

 

[MrHeiskanen]

Heiskanen got injured just before the camp so what were they supposed to do? Throw him in on the rink without a clue how he could take it? Now we can be pretty sure Miro would've made the roster if he was healthy. Not a chance someone like Lindell is the better player even as things stand today. He had bad luck but in the long run it really doesn't mean a thing.

You take Lindell over Heiskanen today.

Lindell - Klingberg
Methot - Heiskanen
Hamhuis - Johns

That should be the defense we roll with right now. Sadly we are stuck with Oleksiak/Pateryn because of Methot injury and Heiskanen in Liiga.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

It's absolutely impossible to compare nhlers with other 2010 draft players. Skinner put up 31g 63p in NHL, and you trying to say that Tarasenko guy can be better than him. LOL.
It's absolutely impossible to compare nhlers with other 2011 draft players. Kucherov will be better, than RNH? LMAO.
... 2012... Forsberg>Yakupov? Are you insane?
2013 Buchnevich>Nichushkin? Just stop!

You realize that you both are arguing the same thing, right? The impossibility and utter pointlessness of comparing players with non-existent sample sizes.

 

[Snowsii]

Of course that's why, but you're not following my reasoning...the point was that a much more diverse population of players come from AHL to the NHL that get factored into the conversion score compared to players coming from the KHL to the NHL, particular skewing more toward veterans who are not likely to take a step in development or be scorers at higher levels. The players who come from the KHL to the NHL are generally young players who are likely to become much better players over a summer, and players who come over with the hope that they will be scorers...not many come over to try and make it as grinders, even though I'm sure there are productive KHL players who have the skillset to be decent NHL grinders (but not productive) - they generally don't come over.

As for that other guy...if you're so interested in the topic make a thread titled: the KHL is clearly the second best league in the world. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people other than me who will explain to you, using the same clear arguments I've made, why you're delusional (e.g. Vey and Dawes would not be leading the AHL in scoring). This isn't the place for that.

Look...

Im not the delusional here.. KHL would be second best league by majority people.. You keep still insisting that, while it's early season. It somehow makes KHL worse league. Maybe you should switch your medication buddy..

 

[Cquant]

We are speaking about the 2017 draft, not 2012. The development of each player take a different time with a different ceiling.
Training camp was 2 months ago. Only 2 players were able to play at NHL level.
Why Heiskanen is not playing in the (not very good) Dallas Defence if he deserves 1 oa?
Why Petterson is not playing with the canucks, who have litterally only one good scoring line?
The fact is that there is a ravine between NHL and euro leagues/AHL.

Pettersson was drafted to be a center, that and he is extremely skinny right now. One hit from Chara and he might break his spine. He wasn't even given a chance at camp, despite being the clear best player of all the prospects (better than Boeser, and you can check his pace right now).
Fact is, clubs have a plan for their prospects, and it's not as simple as let him play and see if he makes it. Pettersson said himself that he needed to get his weight up. That and he hasn't played center in 2 years, so he is going to have to give that a go.

And Heiskanen is brilliant. He had an injury and management decided to send him back to Finland, have a go at getting onto the Olympic team and having one more year of development before playing in the best league. Nothing wrong with taking it slow and not risking your players confidence.

Of course that's why, but you're not following my reasoning...the point was that a much more diverse population of players come from AHL to the NHL that get factored into the conversion score compared to players coming from the KHL to the NHL, particular skewing more toward veterans who are not likely to take a step in development or be scorers at higher levels. The players who come from the KHL to the NHL are generally young players who are likely to become much better players over a summer, and players who come over with the hope that they will be scorers...not many come over to try and make it as grinders, even though I'm sure there are productive KHL players who have the skillset to be decent NHL grinders (but not productive) - they generally don't come over.

As for that other guy...if you're so interested in the topic make a thread titled: the KHL is clearly the second best league in the world. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people other than me who will explain to you, using the same clear arguments I've made, why you're delusional (e.g. Vey and Dawes would not be leading the AHL in scoring). This isn't the place for that.

Vey found a great team mate in Dawes. He was never bad, but he had deficiencies in his defensive game. His style of game fits the KHL very well. Even though the KHL is the second best league in the world, I'm not sure it is the best league in Europe by miles. The SHL is a very decent league and closely behind the KHL.

Tolvanen is great, Pettersson is great, Heiskanen is great. If you were to put these guys into a different league, chances are they don't produce as well as they have been. Each of them are in a good situation, discussing which is better at the moment is a little redundant because we can't compare them. Most of us can't even agree which league is better and by how much. There aren't any arguments to clearly show one or the other.
In all honesty, I'd probably rank them in terms of the importance of their position. #1D over #1C and #1W. But that's just me personally. Tolvanen's value has certainly risen to the top 10 if not the top 5 in a redraft.

 

[kelsier]

You take Lindell over Heiskanen today.

Lindell - Klingberg
Methot - Heiskanen
Hamhuis - Johns

That should be the defense we roll with right now. Sadly we are stuck with Oleksiak/Pateryn because of Methot injury and Heiskanen in Liiga.

Yes you might but I wouldn't. The only advantage Lindell has over Heiskanen even today is size and having NHL level of physicality is always a result of hard training. Miro is younger so obviously he's not tougher, but he makes up all of that by his hockey smarts and I wouldn't hesitate to say he'd be a better defender than Lindell already (who was close to taking a plane back home just a year ago). Luckily next season that's not a decision one has to take. I think Heiskanen would have made it to the roster had he not been injured but I see absolutely nothing bad about having extra year in Finland.

 

[ijuka]

Agreed, I would take Heiskanen over Lindell easily. Lindell really isn't that good.

 

[oconnor9sean]

Lindell really isn't that good.

I disagree with that. He has his warts, but contributes good things to the team. He's a serviceable top-4 defenseman on this team and has the potential to become an elite #3-style defenseman in a year or two.

7 pts in 18 GP & a 54% CF this season for Lindell (without favorable zone starts) is not bad at all for a 23 year old with less than 100 career GP.

 

[Breakers]

There is some absolutely ridiculous arguments in this thread.

-If a player dominates in 24 minutes a night like Heiskanen that is a good thing
-If a player dominates with 15 minutes a night like Pettersson that is a good thing.

The only arguments that don't hold merit are
"he isn't scoring because his ice time is so limited"

 

[WhatWhat]

Heiskanen got injured just before the camp so what were they supposed to do? Throw him in on the rink without a clue how he could take it? Now we can be pretty sure Miro would've made the roster if he was healthy. Not a chance someone like Lindell is the better player even as things stand today. He had bad luck but in the long run it really doesn't mean a thing.

While thinking Miro would have made Dallas is fine, thinking it was Lindell's spot on the line is laughable. Lindell struggled a little bit as a rookie last year because he should not have been playing 22 a night but so far this year he has looked like a very comfortable 3.

Miro making the team would have meant Both Nemeth and Oleksiak waived and potentially Hamhuis traded. Lindell's spot was never in jeopardy as right now he is our 2nd best D and very deserving of that title

 

[WhatWhat]

Yes you might but I wouldn't. The only advantage Lindell has over Heiskanen even today is size and having NHL level of physicality is always a result of hard training. Miro is younger so obviously he's not tougher, but he makes up all of that by his hockey smarts and I wouldn't hesitate to say he'd be a better defender than Lindell already (who was close to taking a plane back home just a year ago). Luckily next season that's not a decision one has to take. I think Heiskanen would have made it to the roster had he not been injured but I see absolutely nothing bad about having extra year in Finland.

Holy hell talk about not knowing what you are talking about and not following the stars. Lindell struggled last year not because he was bad but because he was a guy who should have been eased in with 3rd pairing minutes eventually 2nd pairing but instead was tossed on the top pair immediately. Like I said in the post above, Heiskanen earning a roster spot would have had absolutely no impact on lindell

Agreed, I would take Heiskanen over Lindell easily. Lindell really isn't that good.

Gonna go out on a limb and say you have seen a single stars game this year.

 

[DDRhockey]

Looking at scoring pedegree pettersson is currently outpacing forsberg backstrom sedins sundin naslund. Unheard of.

He should be #2 after hirscher.

 

[GetFocht]

1: Pettersson
2: Hischier
3: Heiskanen
4: Patrick
5: Mittelstadt

 

[Saekk]

1: Pettersson
2: Hischier
3: Heiskanen
4: Patrick
5: Mittelstadt

 

[Luddowich]

It's really not that far fetched. I don't agree with it but all of Hischier, Patrick, Heiskanen, Pettersson and Tolvanen have valid arguments for going 1 in a redraft even though i wouldn't change pretty much anything seeing how it's too early.

 

[ijuka]

1: Pettersson
2: Hischier
3: Heiskanen
4: Patrick
5: Mittelstadt

I don't see how Mittelstadt would actually have increased his stock. His scoring really isn't very impressive for the league.

 

[Breakers]

1: Pettersson
2: Hischier
3: Heiskanen
4: Patrick
5: Mittelstadt

YUCK