Speculation: Vancouver offer for Subban

[Genesis76]

If you wanted to know which GM won the trade.
Here is a very simple calculation you can do:

(playoffs included)

Every game = 1 Coin
Every point = 1 Coin
Any extra game = Bonus 1 Coin /each
Any extra point = Bonus 1 Coin /each


PK: 134 GP = 134 Coins + 24 Bonus Coins = 158 Coins
Weber: 110 GP = 110 Coins + No bonus Coins = 110 Coins

PK: 87 Pts = 87 Coins +26 Bonus Coins = 113 Coins
Weber: 61 Pts = 61 Coins + No bonus Coins = 61Coins

PK: 271 Total Coins
Weber: 171 Total Coins

Weber will cost MTL 24 mils in total by the end of the year
Subban will cost Nashville 22 mils in total by the end of the year

Subban's is worth 12.3 Coins per million dollars
Webber is worth 7.13 Coins per million dollars


Finally:

Weber's Value is 58% of Pk's.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

If you wanted to know which GM won the trade.
Here is a very simple calculation you can do:

(playoffs included)

Every game = 1 Coin
Every point = 1 Coin
Any extra game = Bonus 1 Coin /each
Any extra point = Bonus 1 Coin /each


PK: 134 GP = 134 Coins + 24 Bonus Coins = 158 Coins
Weber: 110 GP = 110 Coins + No bonus Coins = 110 Coins

PK: 87 Pts = 87 Coins +26 Bonus Coins = 113 Coins
Weber: 61 Pts = 61 Coins + No bonus Coins = 61Coins

PK: 271 Total Coins
Weber: 171 Total Coins

Weber will cost MTL 24 mils in total by the end of the year
Subban will cost Nashville 22 mils in total by the end of the year

Subban's is worth 12.3 Coins per million dollars
Webber is worth 7.13 Coins per million dollars


Finally:

Weber's Value is 58% of Pk's.

This is a very interesting way of determining value, and I find it very accurate in this instance.

Nice job!

 

[waffledave]

Are McJesus and Toews Weber's teammates?

Who cares? Gretzky said Hemsky was the most skilled offensive player he's ever seen. You agree with that?

Actually, given how much you pumped Hemsky's tires this summer, you probably do...

 

[The Great Weal]

Are McJesus and Toews Weber's teammates?

I wonder what Toews thinks when Subban shut him up in the playoffs by absolutely spanking the hawks. Mcdavid literally played 45 games out west when Weber was on Nashville. That is a terrible sample size.

 

[Genesis76]

There're not a lot of bad moves made by this regime man. You can try really hard but you wont convince me.

If your worst trade is PK vs Weber you can get lost right away.

This trade will eventually look worst than the Gomez, Roy, Chelios trades combined.

From here on PK will litterally dominate the league for a another 4-5 years. Hes going to win a at least 2 cups and 2 more Norris and at least 1 Conn Smyth.

He will inspire millions of kids living in poverty to play hockey and will help communitys around NA build hockey rings.

P.K. Subban,

A legend in the making

 

[Fish on The Sand]

It's not exactly "lateral" though, is it?

Subban was younger, had a better recent track-record than Weber, and a better contractual situation.

As much as I like Weber, he's older than Subban, he's worse than Subban, and he's under contract until he's 40. That doesn't mean he can't be a quality #1D for another few years. We just got the short end of the stick on this one, on a trade that seems mostly based on acquiring "leadership" and to please a coach that should have been long gone even at that point.



The 3 years contract Galchenyuk just signed isn't a bridge, it takes him straight to UFA status. I actually agreed with handing him a bridge deal at the time.

I wanted us to sign Galchenyuk to a Drouin like contract instead of the bridge. We didn't quite get burned on it, but we could have.

 

[Deluded Puck]

We don’t need speculation and hypotheticals to make Bergevin seem worse than he is - the reality is bad enough.

 

[Brainiac]

If you wanted to know which GM won the trade.
Here is a very simple calculation you can do:

(playoffs included)

Every game = 1 Coin
Every point = 1 Coin
Any extra game = Bonus 1 Coin /each
Any extra point = Bonus 1 Coin /each


PK: 134 GP = 134 Coins + 24 Bonus Coins = 158 Coins
Weber: 110 GP = 110 Coins + No bonus Coins = 110 Coins

PK: 87 Pts = 87 Coins +26 Bonus Coins = 113 Coins
Weber: 61 Pts = 61 Coins + No bonus Coins = 61Coins

PK: 271 Total Coins
Weber: 171 Total Coins

Weber will cost MTL 24 mils in total by the end of the year
Subban will cost Nashville 22 mils in total by the end of the year

Subban's is worth 12.3 Coins per million dollars
Webber is worth 7.13 Coins per million dollars


Finally:

Weber's Value is 58% of Pk's.

Eh... how can I say.

The method used in his post just doubles the difference between the two players.

Player A - 100 points
Player B - 50 points

The difference between them is 50 points (thank you captain).

Now let's use, the 'method'...

The difference between player A and B will be:

A - B = 50 points! but.... let's add the difference between them, just for fun!

A vs B = 50 + (A - B) = 50 + 50 = 100!!

This is ridiculous.

 

[Genesis76]

Eh... how can I say.

The method used in his post just doubles the difference between the two players.

Player A - 100 points
Player B - 50 points

The difference between them is 50 points (thank you captain).

Now let's use, the 'method'...

The difference between player A and B will be:

A - B = 50 points! but.... let's add the difference between them, just for fun!

A vs B = 50 + (A - B) = 50 + 50 = 100!!

This is ridiculous.

Firstly i used coins.
Secondly if:

Player A has 100 points
Player B has 50 Points

Than player A is worth 100 coins + another 50 coins because every point over Player B is worth an additional 1 coin.

So the value of each player is:

Player A 150 coins
Player B 50 coins

Assuming they both make the same salary and they both play the same position Player B’s value will be worth 33% of Player A’s.

 

[JianYang]

If it's true (Friedman discussed about it : How PK Subban was almost traded from Canadiens to Canucks in 2016). Bergevin had the chance to trade PK Subban at the 2016 Entry Draft for Bo Horvat, Chris Tanev and the 5th overall pick. If it's really true he NEEDS to leave right now!

Imagine the Montreal Canadians right now with:

Horvat
Tanev
5th pick : Tkachuk, Keller or Sergachev
9th pick : McAvoy

Horvat is a solid #1C.... Probably the next captain of the Canucks and tanev is a top pairing shutdown defender.

That's already overpayment for subban.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Disagree. It was a stupid trade becuase of the reasons why we traded him but in the end it was a lateral trade IMO. Weber is just under 4 years older than Subban but we acquired a RD defenseman who is one of the best in the game. Weber is not declining at the rate people say he is.

Stop it woth the lateral trade. Subban is better, more dynamic and drives the play and is as good or even better defensively than Weber.

I always liked Weber. I used to make trades on EA's NHL to pair him up with Markov. But that was before Subban rose up. So I have no bias against him. Subban is just better.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Firstly i used coins.
Secondly if:

Player A has 100 points
Player B has 50 Points

Than player A is worth 100 coins + another 50 coins because every point over Player B is worth an additional 1 coin.

So the value of each player is:

Player A 150 coins
Player B 50 coins

Assuming they both make the same salary and they both play the same position Player B’s value will be worth 33% of Player A’s.

It doesn't take into consideration injuries, it doesn't factor in teammates and it's only a season and a half that you're looking at.

I hated the trade but this coin thing makes no 'cents'.

 

[Brainiac]

Firstly i used coins.
Secondly if:

Player A has 100 points
Player B has 50 Points

Than player A is worth 100 coins + another 50 coins because every point over Player B is worth an additional 1 coin.

So the value of each player is:

Player A 150 coins
Player B 50 coins

Assuming they both make the same salary and they both play the same position Player B’s value will be worth 33% of Player A’s.

Calvaire.

I'm gonna use coins too.

Player A has 100 points = 100 coins
Player B has 50 points = 50 coins

I'm gonna give 3 coins for every extra point.

Player A = 100 coins + 3 x (100-50) = 250 coins
Player B = 50 coins

Player A is 5 times as good as player B...

 

[nhlfan9191]

If you wanted to know which GM won the trade.
Here is a very simple calculation you can do:

(playoffs included)

Every game = 1 Coin
Every point = 1 Coin
Any extra game = Bonus 1 Coin /each
Any extra point = Bonus 1 Coin /each


PK: 134 GP = 134 Coins + 24 Bonus Coins = 158 Coins
Weber: 110 GP = 110 Coins + No bonus Coins = 110 Coins

PK: 87 Pts = 87 Coins +26 Bonus Coins = 113 Coins
Weber: 61 Pts = 61 Coins + No bonus Coins = 61Coins

PK: 271 Total Coins
Weber: 171 Total Coins

Weber will cost MTL 24 mils in total by the end of the year
Subban will cost Nashville 22 mils in total by the end of the year

Subban's is worth 12.3 Coins per million dollars
Webber is worth 7.13 Coins per million dollars


Finally:

Weber's Value is 58% of Pk's.

I’ll make it easier with less text. PK time of trade 27, Weber 30 turning 31 before the year. PK coming into prime, Weber peaked 2-3 years before the trade happened. We already lost at that point.

 

[LaP]

It puzzles me that some people are still trying to convince themselves and others that the trade involving Subban is not a a bad trade.

Reminds me so much the Houle era where people kept saying for a long while he was doing good trades and then when he was fired it was like all of them had a collective wakening up and realized all of a sudden he had destroyed the team.

Even if they would be equal now, which is highly debatable, the age difference makes it bad.

 

[TT1]

Where does it say anything about Horvat and Tanev? I only see them talking about the draft pick..

 

[LaP]

Where does it say anything about Horvat and Tanev? I only see them talking about the draft pick..

Well obviously pk was not going to be traded for a 5th overall pick. You don't get that kind of player in their prime for a 5th overall pick (i.e. a non generational kid who might fail). If Vancouver was interested there was some other good pieces included.

I think it's crazy how undervalued pk is around here. He's not a generational player but he is in the upper hand of the elite group.

He's the kind of player that IF WE want to get them from other teams we have to unload our whole team, the farm and all our picks for the next 10 years. But apparently other teams can steal those players from us for not much.

 

[TT1]

Well obviously pk was not going to be traded for a 5th overall pick. You don't get that kind of player in their prime for a 5th overall pick (i.e. a non generational kid who might fail). If Vancouver was interested there was some other good pieces included.

Of course but what those other pieces would have been is just pure speculation.

 

[LaP]

Of course but what those other pieces would have been is just pure speculation.

Well what else did they have back then?

I still think a good GM would have get crazy offers for PK.

 

[c3z4r]

Horvat is a solid #1C.... Probably the next captain of the Canucks and tanev is a top pairing shutdown defender.

That's already overpayment for subban.

Horvat is not a #1C, he still hasn't shown the offense for that. At best he's a good #2C right now, otherwise we'd have to start calling guys like Turris, Brassard, Stepan, etc. solid #1C.

Tanev might be a top pairing shutdown defenceman, although I would rate him more of an ideal #3D, a la Hjalmarsson, but he has little offense to his game (he's about as good as Gorges offensively) and he's very injury prone (still hasn't played a full season after what? 5-6 years as a fulltime NHL player.)

Those 2 for Subban are definitely not overpayment imo.

 

[Genesis76]

It doesn't take into consideration injuries, it doesn't factor in teammates and it's only a season and a half that you're looking at.

I hated the trade but this coin thing makes no 'cents'.

Of course it does, a player who plays more games is by default more valuable. Hes also gaining 1 bonus coin for every extea game he has over the other player.

For suee it doesnt factor teamates. This isn’t a chemistry measure its a value measure.

None the less you can do the same exercise for when Subban was in mtl and weber in nsh.

 

[The Great Weal]

Horvat isn't a #1 c, he is a good #2.

 

[Miller Time]

It still seems like more of a lateral move than anything. Tanev's nothing to get excited about; he's certainly no Subban replacement. Horvat's good and young, but Subban is vastly superior. The extra first rounder is great, but why trade Subban at all when Price is in the same age window?

Better than Weber as a return? Yeah, I guess. Still not good enough for trading Subban.

"Yeah, I guess"?

So tommorow Vancouver offers Horvat/Tanev/1st for Weber, and you don't drive him to the airport?

I do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Miller Time]

We agree on this. I remember having an argument about the trade rumors before he was traded. I was sure it was just a rumor based on how bad our previous season was. Boy I was shocked on that day! I will never throw Weber under the bus because our GM traded Subban though. It was a lateral trade that was stupid and the reasons why we traded him in the first place is stupid!

It's not throwing Weber under the bus to point out that it was a very bad trade where we got the lesser player/asset.

 

[RickP]

Ask Toews and McJesus.

The funny thing is McDavid once said Subban was his favorite player in the league:

Stu Cowan: Subban stifles McDavid Show as teammates explode offensively

Subban played a monster game. He logged 24:50 of ice time, picked up a goal and an assist and was plus-1. He extended his point-scoring streak to five games and has points in 14 of the last 16 games. The defenceman leads the Canadiens in scoring with 5-36-41 totals, but it was his defensive play and his ability to contain McDavid that was most impressive on Saturday.

"He’s obviously one of the best defencemen in the world and any chance to get into a matchup against him it’s always a good challenge,” McDavid said. “He was on his game tonight and it was fun to play against him.”

(...)

Subban recalled someone showing him an article when McDavid was playing at the under-17 level and was asked who his favourite player was. McDavid’s answer: P.K. Subban.
“I’m still going to hold that,” Subban said with a big smile. “That possibly the best player in the league in the next couple of years is saying that I’m his favourite player.”