Speculation: Vancouver offer for Subban

[Kriss E]

Stop it woth the lateral trade. Subban is better, more dynamic and drives the play and is as good or even better defensively than Weber.

I always liked Weber. I used to make trades on EA's NHL to pair him up with Markov. But that was before Subban rose up. So I have no bias against him. Subban is just better.

I used to wish we could somehow land the big guy too, and it would have been an absolute treat to watch him play along side Subban. Hands down, they would have made the best defensive pairing in the NHL.
But swapping him for Subban, it really just showed how out of touch with the reality of the NHL Bergevin is.
Not only that, but within his own team. The idea that the issue with this team was a lack of a bigger more stay at home Dman over Subban, that Weber would be a better for the Habs, showed a completely misunderstanding of the Habs.
At first, I thought it was just BS for the cameras. Just a PR thing. But then we look at how Bergevin continued in the same direction this past summer, letting go of essentially all his puck movers and replacing them with defensive Dmen. The guy actually thought this was the way to build. He is such a clueless GM.

 

[WG]

The important part here is that the decision to trade a superstar defenseman hinged on the possibility of drafting PLD. That alone says enough about Bergevin's judgement.

Needs to be reinforced. Subban for PLD plus whatever else would have been super fantastic but Subban for Keller/Tkachuk plus whatever else = no dice. Would almost seem that Bergy was prioritizing particular skills.

 

[BLONG7]

Needs to be reinforced. Subban for PLD plus whatever else would have been super fantastic but Subban for Keller/Tkachuk plus whatever else = no dice. Would almost seem that Bergy was prioritizing particular skills.

MB's priority, was placating his clown coach...

 

[yianik]

No question you can see that MB was not fond of PK.

However , we saw MB go out and get guys like Briere, PAP and Vanek,And while the 1st 2 were of the Bargainbin variety, it still showed he thought we needed extra skill and scoring punch.

We also saw MT quickly dismissing these guys. I know people were not happy with Vanek but when you can't score you don't throw a top veteran scorer onto the bottom 6, you just hope he starts scoring and keep him top 6.

I think that MB finally went all in with MTs vision of the team he wanted so out goes PK and even out goes Eller, whose East West play in the neutral zone MT hated.

So in my view, MT was the driving force for the PK trade, though of course MB is the guy responsible because he just could have kept him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's not throwing Weber under the bus to point out that it was a very bad trade where we got the lesser player/asset.

Depends on the poster and what you say about Weber I guess. I already said multiple times that the gap in value between these two is not huge and if I had to choose one player between the two, I would pick Subban. However, I think there are some attempts at devaluing Weber to make it worse than it is. This is not fair to Weber and this is what I mean by throwing him under the bus.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Stop it woth the lateral trade. Subban is better, more dynamic and drives the play and is as good or even better defensively than Weber.

I always liked Weber. I used to make trades on EA's NHL to pair him up with Markov. But that was before Subban rose up. So I have no bias against him. Subban is just better.

Sorry, I think it's a lateral trade. A RD for a RD where both players are very good at what they do and considered some of the best in the league. That is a lateral trade to me. Your concentrated at who is better and at the moment, Subban is better yes.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We got 4 years older not to mention taking on a contract with a decade left on it to put a nice, rotten cherry on top. All other things being equal (which they're not) we lost the trade.

A lateral trade doesn't mean that we won or lost the trade. A lateral to me means we traded a RD for a RD where both are considered to be some of the best in the league on D. At the moment, Subban is having a career year on a great team and Weber is hurt on a bad team. I do think Subban has more value but I don't think the gap between them is huge. The 4 year age gap has not factored in the equation yet IMO. Maybe it will in a few years... hard to predict.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's fine I'll drop it, but you can't expect to use words and not get called out when they mean one thing but you are using it another way that doesn't exist. It's like if I counted losses where I felt we could have won and call them wins, you unfortunately can't do that.

Please refrain from making comments alluding to me picking on you because of language. I was raised in french and both my parents are native French speakers. I never make racial or language based arguments. Playing the victim won't help anyone.

Feel free to use words as you see fit and I'll take your suggestion to refrain from replying to these type of posts.

All the best,

KIG

It's all good. But I am sure you are a pretty smart person and you understood what I was talking about with the lateral move and how I explained it after you questioned it. Think of it as a lateral pass in football... you can't pass it forward but you can pass it laterally or behind you. That's what we did. We took the unnecessary risk at making the lateral and it was a sligly backwards lateral where the guy who caught the pass got tackled right away and we ended up with a net gain of -2 yards.

We should not of taken that risk! It was stupid

 

[Tighthead]

Depends on the poster and what you say about Weber I guess. I already said multiple times that the gap in value between these two is not huge and if I had to choose one player between the two, I would pick Subban. However, I think there are some attempts at devaluing Weber to make it worse than it is. This is not fair to Weber and this is what I mean by throwing him under the bus.

Sort of the equivalent of calling Brisebois passive because of his appearance?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Sort of the equivalent of calling Brisebois passive because of his appearance?

Not really but nice try. I actually said lots of good things about Brisebois but the passive comment was blown out of proportion because that's what you do. I would not be upset if we hired Brisebois as our next GM... just like I was not upset when we hired Bergevin as our GM back in 2012. However, I think the 5 year (+/-) cycle is repeated. My choice is Roy as I believe he would do what it takes to give us a shot at a cup.

 

[Tighthead]

Not really but nice try. I actually said lots of good things about Brisebois but the passive comment was blown out of proportion because that's what you do. I would not be upset if we hired Brisebois as our next GM... just like I was not upset when we hired Bergevin as our GM back in 2012. However, I think the 5 year (+/-) cycle is repeated. My choice is Roy as I believe he would do what it takes to give us a shot at a cup.

It’s actually the exact same thing. It was a completely baseless remark that you repeated but could not provide any justification for beyond “I’m entitled to my opinion same as you.”

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Of course it does, a player who plays more games is by default more valuable. Hes also gaining 1 bonus coin for every extea game he has over the other player.

For suee it doesnt factor teamates. This isn’t a chemistry measure its a value measure.

None the less you can do the same exercise for when Subban was in mtl and weber in nsh.

I'd rather use hockey stats... because it actually makes sense to look at things that way.

When I do that I can see that Subban is a top 5 (maybe top 3) offensive talent. I see that the positive impact he has on his teammates is massive. I see that defensively he's ridiculously underrated. I can also see that he's one of the best penalty killers in the league and is successful despite playing harder minutes. Most of all though I see that he's one of the best in the league at getting the puck out of his own zone, sending it the other way and keeping it there.

 

[optimus2861]

"Yeah, I guess"?

So tommorow Vancouver offers Horvat/Tanev/1st for Weber, and you don't drive him to the airport?

I do it in a heartbeat.

Oh for Weber, absolutely, I'd take that return six days a week and twice on Sunday. That contract is ridiculous for his old-fashioned game.

My point was that for Subban, I don't think it would have been good enough and wouldn't have left the team in any kind of better shape. The article said as much, that the best "alternate reality" for the Canadiens is still the one where they never traded PK in the first place.

 

[optimus2861]

I'd rather use hockey stats... because it actually makes sense to look at things that way.

When I do that I can see that Subban is a top 5 (maybe top 3) offensive talent. I see that the impact he has on his teammates is massive. I see that defensively he's ridiculously underrated. I can also see that he's one of the best penalty killers in the league and is successful despite playing harder minutes. Most of all though I see that he's one of the best in the league at getting the puck out of his own zone, sending it the other way and keeping it there.

There is an argument to be made that the 100-point player, being on the far right of the bell curve, is definitely worth more than 2x the 50-point player, who is closer to the middle of the curve. He's a much rarer commodity and is going to have much more impact on your roster than a pair of 50-point players, generally.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It’s actually the exact same thing. It was a completely baseless remark that you repeated but could not provide any justification for beyond “I’m entitled to my opinion same as you.”

Correct. We both have an opinion. My opinion about Brisebois appearing to be too passive was clarified multiple times after your cheery picking grudge point. I have admitted to not seeing too much interviews or video about Brisebois. You are flipping this to Weber and my stance at the gap between him and Subban not being as big as some predict it to be. Last time I checked, Weber has not declined yet. He is still the same defenseman he was when we acquired him. As for Brisebois being too passive and not able to handle our GM job... I have no idea if this would be true or not as we have zero sample size.

The only clear thing you are proving is you hold a grudge and you can't let go. Come on man. Give it up.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There is an argument to be made that the 100-point player, being on the far right of the bell curve, is definitely worth more than 2x the 50-point player, who is closer to the middle of the curve. He's a much rarer commodity and is going to have much more impact on your roster than a pair of 50-point players, generally.

Subban never should've been traded. If we wanted Weber for whatever reason we should've found another way to do it. You don't trade away those kinds of players when you're trying to win. The only time it makes sense to do it is if you're in rebuild mode.

Forget about Weber. Remove him from the equation here. It simply doesn't make sense to move a guy like Subban. Why would we look to move him to begin with?

We had a bad season after Price got hurt and PK took the blame (same way Price is taking the blame now.) A bunch of his haters piled on and blamed him here. MB tripled down with MT and now we're seeing what we lost. When you lose heart and soul players like him it kills you.

 

[optimus2861]

It simply doesn't make sense to move a guy like Subban. Why would we look to move him to begin with?

Rhetorical, right? We all know why. Therrien hated his guts, Bergevin wasn't fond of him either; with the NMC about to kick in, Subban would've outlasted them both in Montreal and everyone knew it, and those two peabrains couldn't handle it. Plus they needed a scapegoat for the disastrous 15/16 season. Poof! Away Subban goes.

It's actually bloody obvious in hindsight that Subban was doomed. It had nothing, nothing, nothing to do with anything on the ice, and everything to do with the fact the organization is staffed at nearly all levels by petty, incompetent, small-minded fools.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Rhetorical, right? We all know why. Therrien hated his guts, Bergevin wasn't fond of him either; with the NMC about to kick in, Subban would've outlasted them both in Montreal and everyone knew it, and those two peabrains couldn't handle it. Plus they needed a scapegoat for the disastrous 15/16 season. Poof! Away Subban goes.

It's actually bloody obvious in hindsight that Subban was doomed. It had nothing, nothing, nothing to do with anything on the ice, and everything to do with the fact the organization is staffed at nearly all levels by petty, incompetent, small-minded fools.

Like I said, I'd never trade a guy like that unless it's rebuild time.

And now it's time to move our other heart/soul player. Jeff Petry's now our best blueliner and we can't score worth crap. It's over. Max (who we never got a center for) has to go too. That whole group it's time to move on from. Just a total waste of talent.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Oh for Weber, absolutely, I'd take that return six days a week and twice on Sunday. That contract is ridiculous for his old-fashioned game.

My point was that for Subban, I don't think it would have been good enough and wouldn't have left the team in any kind of better shape. The article said as much, that the best "alternate reality" for the Canadiens is still the one where they never traded PK in the first place.

What would be the point in trading Subban for futures? At the time we were a good team that needed a few pieces to put us over. You don't trade a core player for futures at that point.

Now however....

 

[Miller Time]

Oh for Weber, absolutely, I'd take that return six days a week and twice on Sunday. That contract is ridiculous for his old-fashioned game.

My point was that for Subban, I don't think it would have been good enough and wouldn't have left the team in any kind of better shape. The article said as much, that the best "alternate reality" for the Canadiens is still the one where they never traded PK in the first place.

I see.... And totally agree.

Highlights how awful the trade was for us.

 

[Brainiac]

All that Subban talk got me thinking...

Anyone here believes that Nashville would accept a one for one trade:

To Montréal: Subban

To Nashville : Weber

Anyone? Because for some guys around here, it seems like the trade would be OK for Nashville. Seriously?

 

[Miller Time]

Depends on the poster and what you say about Weber I guess. I already said multiple times that the gap in value between these two is not huge and if I had to choose one player between the two, I would pick Subban. However, I think there are some attempts at devaluing Weber to make it worse than it is. This is not fair to Weber and this is what I mean by throwing him under the bus.

I think the Gap is significant...

But yes, agree fully that this is not a reflection on Weber, simply the reality of how much more valuable PK was/is.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think the Gap is significant...

But yes, agree fully that this is not a reflection on Weber, simply the reality of how much more valuable PK was/is.

I don't think the gap is significant. Today, I would have Weber as a fringe top 10 NHL defenseman (10-15 range for sure) and Subban in the the top 10. That is not a significant gap but that is according to my standards and what I know today. I can't overlook the good season Subban is having on a very good team. It's tracking to match his career best (2014-2015) and Weber is hurt at the moment. Weber was tracking at a 50+ pts and 19 goal pace. Pretty much his average.

 

[Miller Time]

I don't think the gap is significant. Today, I would have Weber as a fringe top 10 NHL defenseman (10-15 range for sure) and Subban in the the top 10. That is not a significant gap but that is according to my standards and what I know today. I can't overlook the good season Subban is having on a very good team. It's tracking to match his career best (2014-2015) and Weber is hurt at the moment. Weber was tracking at a 50+ pts and 19 goal pace. Pretty much his average.

Disagree completely.

PK is top 3, if not the best dman in the game right now.

Weber isn't in the top 20 at this point.

And it's not a linear comparison... Top 3-5 aren't just a bit better than 10-15, the truly elite players are at significantly better than the next bunch

 

[Habs Halifax]

Disagree completely.

PK is top 3, if not the best dman in the game right now.

Weber isn't in the top 20 at this point

I believe you are over inflating Subban and deflating Weber. Truth is in the middle. Show me now many NHL defenseman who can score 15-20 NHL goals and are not in the top 20 consideration? Come on man. Weber is a goal scoring machine and not many can do what he can do.