Speculation: Vancouver offer for Subban

optimus2861

Registered User
Aug 29, 2005
5,044
531
Bedford NS
You continue to overvalue Weber's offensive game, focused as you are on his goals, which come largely from someone setting him up for his booming shot. Subban is able to contribute to his team's offensive game in a far more comprehensive and complete fashion than Weber does. His point & goal totals may end up slightly lower than Weber's in a given year, but the team ends up vastly the better for having Subban on it than Weber. It's been demonstrated over and over and over again that Subban tilts the ice in his team's favour when he's playing, while Weber is largely just "there". Add in the 4-year age gap and Weber's ludicrous contract and "lateral" remains a generous description of the infamous deal. It was a misguided move in the short term, and colossally stupid one in the medium and long terms.
 

BLONG7

Registered User
Oct 30, 2002
35,619
21,954
Nova Scotia
Visit site
More ob
Rhetorical, right? We all know why. Therrien hated his guts, Bergevin wasn't fond of him either; with the NMC about to kick in, Subban would've outlasted them both in Montreal and everyone knew it, and those two peabrains couldn't handle it. Plus they needed a scapegoat for the disastrous 15/16 season. Poof! Away Subban goes.

It's actually bloody obvious in hindsight that Subban was doomed. It had nothing, nothing, nothing to do with anything on the ice, and everything to do with the fact the organization is staffed at nearly all levels by petty, incompetent, small-minded fools.
More obvious, each passing day..........come on Geoff, do the right thing!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doc McKenna

waffledave

waffledave, from hf
Aug 22, 2004
33,417
15,736
Montreal
I believe you are over inflating Subban and deflating Weber. Truth is in the middle. Show me now many NHL defenseman who can score 15-20 NHL goals and are not in the top 20 consideration? Come on man. Weber is a goal scoring machine and not many can do what he can do.

Weber is a perfect example of that kind of player.
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
22,837
15,037
I believe you are over inflating Subban and deflating Weber. Truth is in the middle. Show me now many NHL defenseman who can score 15-20 NHL goals and are not in the top 20 consideration? Come on man. Weber is a goal scoring machine and not many can do what he can do.

Subban
Hedman
Doughty
Karlsson
Burns
Klingberg
Josi
Suter
Pietrangelo
Carlson
OEL
Jones

(11) are all superior to Weber impact-wise right now (goal scoring is nice, but far from the only or main consideration when looking at a #1 dman).

Letang
Giordano
Keith
Chara
McDo
Vlasic
Fowler
Ekholm

(8) and probably a few others are similar, impact-wise, or debatable

Prokorov
Reilly
Goshtibehere
Ekhdbad
Parayko
Butcher
Werenski
McAvoy
Hanifin

(9) and likely a few other young dmen are more valuable assets to have for a team in our situation, better suited for what drives success in the game today and better overall assets from a long term perspective


Now, you likely disagree with some of my choices, and i'm surely missing some that should be in the discussion, but what is clear imo is that Weber is not in the top-15, impact-wise today, and probably not even in the top-20 as far as his value as an asset to a team (factoring in age and contract on top of current impact).

PK, conversely, is arguably #1, unquestionably top-3-5.

That is a significant gap.

And none of this is a slight on Weber, imo. He's a very nice player to have, there are just quite a few other players in the league today that have surpassed his impact, if not his reputation.
 

Habs 4 Life

No Excuses
Mar 30, 2005
41,015
4,793
Montreal
That Vancouver offer, especially if Dubois fell, would have been a steal of a return for Subban.

Lol stuck with Weber for how many more years?

With Subban signed long term, he could have easily fetched something else the following year had he kept him and not made a stupid "rush" trade
but no, he "needed" to move him since he was apparently the "problem"
f***ing stupid GM and an even bigger moron of an owner accepting him to do that.
That's when Molson should have fired him on the SPOT!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BLONG7

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,166
25,917
East Coast
Subban
Hedman
Doughty
Karlsson
Burns
Klingberg
Josi
Suter
Pietrangelo
Carlson
OEL
Jones

(11) are all superior to Weber impact-wise right now (goal scoring is nice, but far from the only or main consideration when looking at a #1 dman).

Letang
Giordano
Keith
Chara
McDo
Vlasic
Fowler
Ekholm

(8) and probably a few others are similar, impact-wise, or debatable

Prokorov
Reilly
Goshtibehere
Ekhdbad
Parayko
Butcher
Werenski
McAvoy
Hanifin

(9) and likely a few other young dmen are more valuable assets to have for a team in our situation, better suited for what drives success in the game today and better overall assets from a long term perspective


Now, you likely disagree with some of my choices, and i'm surely missing some that should be in the discussion, but what is clear imo is that Weber is not in the top-15, impact-wise today, and probably not even in the top-20 as far as his value as an asset to a team (factoring in age and contract on top of current impact).

PK, conversely, is arguably #1, unquestionably top-3-5.

That is a significant gap.

And none of this is a slight on Weber, imo. He's a very nice player to have, there are just quite a few other players in the league today that have surpassed his impact, if not his reputation.

Thanks for providing your research and debating in good faith. It's appreciated and I know how much time it takes to put this together. I think I have Weber above several guys than what you have. Think about Shattenkirk for a second. On one team he is considered a very good offensive defenseman but when he goes to the Caps and Rangers, he falls off quite a bit. There are several guys that fit this category IMO.

- In the 1st group: Hard to argue too much but I would not have Carlson, Suter, or Klingberg in this list. I think they belong in the next group.

- In the 2nd group: Add the 3 guys from the point I made above. Also add Weber. Chara is interesting as he is still very effective as a 40 year old but he is more a defensive guy now and he don't put up the points like he use to.

- Then you have the young guys who are moving down the list: We can't crown them yet as they need to prove themselves over a larger span

Weber belongs in the 7th - 13th ish range IMO. He is very good defensibly and he is still the leader of the pack in the goal scoring department. He belongs in the mix IMO and there are several guys who are similar in age that are in this modest "decline" years from age 30+
 

Goodbahd

Registered User
Dec 17, 2017
652
554
This trade will eventually look worst than the Gomez, Roy, Chelios trades combined.

From here on PK will litterally dominate the league for a another 4-5 years. Hes going to win a at least 2 cups and 2 more Norris and at least 1 Conn Smyth.

He will inspire millions of kids living in poverty to play hockey and will help communitys around NA build hockey rings.

P.K. Subban,

A legend in the making




Roy is the best goalie in history, and Subban will never match the legacy of Chelios.

Roy had 3 Smythes, Vezinas, 4 Cups, etc. Chelios has Norris, Cups, etc.

Outside of the Norris that belonged to Suter, Subban hasn’t won jack yet.

More importantly, up until now Weber has had the better career. 2 Golds and 1 World Cup. In the last decade nobody has more goals by a defenseman than Weber.


Weber was/is the better defenseman, and it’s not his fault our forward core is abysmal.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
22,837
15,037
Thanks for providing your research and debating in good faith. It's appreciated and I know how much time it takes to put this together. I think I have Weber above several guys than what you have. Think about Shattenkirk for a second. On one team he is considered a very good offensive defenseman but when he goes to the Caps and Rangers, he falls off quite a bit. There are several guys that fit this category IMO.

- In the 1st group: Hard to argue too much but I would not have Carlson, Suter, or Klingberg in this list. I think they belong in the next group.

- In the 2nd group: Add the 3 guys from the point I made above. Also add Weber. Chara is interesting as he is still very effective as a 40 year old but he is more a defensive guy now and he don't put up the points like he use to.

- Then you have the young guys who are moving down the list: We can't crown them yet as they need to prove themselves over a larger span

Weber belongs in the 7th - 13th ish range IMO. He is very good defensibly and he is still the leader of the pack in the goal scoring department. He belongs in the mix IMO and there are several guys who are similar in age that are in this modest "decline" years from age 30+

so again, even if you go as high as 8, moving him ahead of Carlson/Suter/Klingberg (Carlson/Suter maybe a case to put them in the middle group, Klingberg is clearly superior at this stage) and putting him ahead of all of the guys in the mid-bracket (which i wouldn't), to consider him a better asset than all of the young guys on the list is a huge stretch unless we're talking EA hockey.

Cap situation, progression curves, and current production put several of those players ahead of him today, and that's not even considering the reality of our roster.

everybody has an opinion i suppose, just hard to see the case you'd make for weber being inside the top 15 as being grounded in today's NHL realities.
 

RickP

Registered User
Mar 14, 2017
970
514
Save the sensationalist trolling for another forum.

Roy is the best goalie in history, and Subban will never match the legacy of Chelios.

Roy had 3 Smythes, Vezinas, 4 Cups, etc. Chelios has Norris, Cups, etc.

Outside of the Norris that belonged to Suter, Subban hasn’t won jack yet.

More importantly, up until now Weber has had the better career. 2 Golds and 1 World Cup. In the last decade nobody has more goals by a defenseman than Weber.


Weber was/is the better defenseman, and it’s not his fault our forward core is abysmal.

The best part of the Subban trade though was/is seeing his disgruntled fanboys crying to no end.

I've always wondered, and this is no knock on Weber, but what's the diffference between Weber scoring a PP goal from the top of the face-off circle, and Ovechkin or Stamkos scoring a PP goal from the top of the face-off circle? I understand Weber is a defenseman at 5-on-5 (and a great one), but on the PP, he usually plays where Ovechkin plays, in a 1-3-1 structure. So Weber's pretty much used as a forward on the PP.

Except this year in MTL, he mostly played at the blue line on the PP, except for a few games where Mete was at the blue line and he was feeding Weber for the one timer (which worked, but for some reasons, they didn't keep that unit for long).
 

lamp9post

Registered User
Jan 28, 2007
4,402
1,652
That Vancouver offer, especially if Dubois fell, would have been a steal of a return for Subban.

Lol stuck with Weber for how many more years?

Keller would have been a good choice at 5 for us.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
20,340
13,876
You continue to overvalue Weber's offensive game, focused as you are on his goals, which come largely from someone setting him up for his booming shot. Subban is able to contribute to his team's offensive game in a far more comprehensive and complete fashion than Weber does. His point & goal totals may end up slightly lower than Weber's in a given year, but the team ends up vastly the better for having Subban on it than Weber. It's been demonstrated over and over and over again that Subban tilts the ice in his team's favour when he's playing, while Weber is largely just "there". Add in the 4-year age gap and Weber's ludicrous contract and "lateral" remains a generous description of the infamous deal. It was a misguided move in the short term, and colossally stupid one in the medium and long terms.

It was a lot of fun arguing during the summer how Montreal's lack of PMD was going to hurt their offense when stuff like the Subban-Weber trade, Sergachev, Markov and/or Alzner were the topics of discussion.
 

Talks to Goalposts

Registered User
Apr 8, 2011
5,117
371
Edmonton
I've always wondered, and this is no knock on Weber, but what's the diffference between Weber scoring a PP goal from the top of the face-off circle, and Ovechkin or Stamkos scoring a PP goal from the top of the face-off circle? I understand Weber is a defenseman at 5-on-5 (and a great one), but on the PP, he usually plays where Ovechkin plays, in a 1-3-1 structure. So Weber's pretty much used as a forward on the PP.

Except this year in MTL, he mostly played at the blue line on the PP, except for a few games where Mete was at the blue line and he was feeding Weber for the one timer (which worked, but for some reasons, they didn't keep that unit for long).


It was an advantage back when most teams used a 3F2D structure and the umbrella wasn't as popular, which put a big premium on defensemen who could contribute from long range. Now Weber is an elite shooter who plays too high in the offensive to get the most out his shot as he still plays more like a defenseman/forward tweener than setting up in quite the same spot as Ovechkin does.

Now that its become obvious that the 4F1D set up is markedly superior, there is a lot more premium on defenseman who are good at the top of the umbrella an less of an emphasis on pure point shooters like what Souray used to be. Not that the best powerplay set up Montreal has run all year is with Petry on the umbrella and Galchenyuk and Drouin on the flanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RickP

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
17,753
16,114
Horvat is not a #1C, he still hasn't shown the offense for that. At best he's a good #2C right now, otherwise we'd have to start calling guys like Turris, Brassard, Stepan, etc. solid #1C.

Tanev might be a top pairing shutdown defenceman, although I would rate him more of an ideal #3D, a la Hjalmarsson, but he has little offense to his game (he's about as good as Gorges offensively) and he's very injury prone (still hasn't played a full season after what? 5-6 years as a fulltime NHL player.)

Those 2 for Subban are definitely not overpayment imo.

Horvat is somewhere between the guys you listed and the true elites. He's a powerful skater that can make room for himself when checking gets tight. I don't expect him to win scoring titles, but he will get better at that too, especially as the young talent in Vancouver continues to penetrate the lineup. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Canucks went into a tailspin when they lost this guy.

I agree that tanev is injury prone but he's a top pair guy. His only deficiency is the offensive side, but he's one of the best defensive dmen in the game. He eats minutes against the best and is very reliable when healthy.

Those two guys alone would make it a sweet deal, assuming tanev could stay reasonably healthy (which I guess he hasn't but we are looking in retrospect), not to mention that the age factor with Weber vs subban completely reverses with subban vs horvat.
 

hotcarle

Registered User
Jul 10, 2009
2,086
388
vd, qc, ca
Bergevin destroyed the team at this draft. The Andrew Shaw trade was awful!! With his two 2nd round picks we could have Debrincat and Girard too in our team.
I was convinced these would be our two 2nds. And then when Subban was traded to Nashville I thought for sure they'd have the Preds throw Girard in to make up for the 4-5 year age difference. Alas, they just wanted Subban to gtfo and didn't care to haggle about the price. But if this stuff is so obvious to us fans... why can't our management see it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: sandviper

Doc McKenna

A new era 2021
Jan 5, 2009
11,812
11,733
Subban never should've been traded. If we wanted Weber for whatever reason we should've found another way to do it. You don't trade away those kinds of players when you're trying to win. The only time it makes sense to do it is if you're in rebuild mode.

Forget about Weber. Remove him from the equation here. It simply doesn't make sense to move a guy like Subban. Why would we look to move him to begin with?

We had a bad season after Price got hurt and PK took the blame (same way Price is taking the blame now.) A bunch of his haters piled on and blamed him here. MB tripled down with MT and now we're seeing what we lost. When you lose heart and soul players like him it kills you.
Well that is the trade we did for Drouin as well. With the added bonus of a 2nd rounder in case a 19 year old didn't play the full year. Good thing Sergechev is ripping it up as calder candidate. We won't lose another 2nd rounder for no reason. Wouldn't want to get burned on another dumpster fire trade.
 

groovejuice

Without deviation progress is not possible
Jun 27, 2011
19,277
18,222
Calgary
Strangely enough Subban is in that 15-20 goals range this year. But yeah some people on this board still think Weber is better even while he is injured and providing nothing of value. BTW gang it only gets worse as you age and those injuries linger a long long time.

Weber's best days are behind him, unfortunately. Subban's are yet to come. This is really the crux of the matter. We got shafted.
 

tazsub3

Registered User
May 30, 2016
5,622
6,062
I was convinced these would be our two 2nds. And then when Subban was traded to Nashville I thought for sure they'd have the Preds throw Girard in to make up for the 4-5 year age difference. Alas, they just wanted Subban to gtfo and didn't care to haggle about the price. But if this stuff is so obvious to us fans... why can't our management see it?
Sorry to inform you, the blind cant see
 

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
24,283
17,385
Quebec City, Canada
Horvat is somewhere between the guys you listed and the true elites. He's a powerful skater that can make room for himself when checking gets tight. I don't expect him to win scoring titles,

A real first line center must be a 60 points guy though. IMO there's absolutely no question about it. People always talk about how Bergeron is the weakest first line center to win the cup but the guy was a regular 60 points guy and he had 70 points seasons. In career Bergeron is a 62.13 points over 82 games guy. And it's not like he was playing with Ovy quality wingers. We always talk about Toews defensive prowess but he is still in career a 70.01 points over 82 games guy. He had the chance to play with Kane on the PP and Hossa at ES but he's still producing offensively. He's having an average year (on pace for 53 points in 82 games) and the Hawks are out of the playoffs for now.

As far as i'm concerned a 50 points guy is not a first line center no matter how good he is defensively. Horvat is still young and could progress but so far he has not shown the ability to be a regular 60 points guy (unless he would be paired width elite wingers).
 
Last edited:

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
24,283
17,385
Quebec City, Canada
Strangely enough Subban is in that 15-20 goals range this year.

In Montreal he was the bread and better of our offense. He was our defensive go to guy and our offensive go to guy too. Our strategy on the PP was to pass it to Subban and hope for the best. Was very easy to play against and Subban tried to smash the board behind the net Tatarinov style. I still think he tried to do too much the last season. Ship was sinking and it was the first time Subban was put in this position as a leader and top player. He tried to take the team on his shoulder and it did not work. The only thing it might tells about him is he's not a leader the other guys will follow when things are falling apart. There's just a few guys like this in the league anyway. Many elite players are not locker room leader. But it doesn't tell anything about his level of play on the ice. He always had a good shot and while he's not a regular 20 goals guy in career he is a 12.74 goals over 82 games guy. That historically bad season people were talking about him like if he was scoring 5 goals over 82 games on average. 13 goals a season is not bad specially for an elite play maker like Subban. It's fine.
 

Shabs

Registered User
Nov 16, 2017
2,068
1,996
This thread is depressing on so many levels. I remember watching weber in that game 7 preds vs sharks and thinking, “wow, he has lost a step and the game has passed him by”. It seemed so obvious to me. He looked awful in that game. Then we trade subban - our most mobile D - for him!? WTF was bergevin watching? Now, we basically have lost a year of Weber and I really don’t care. What a waste. If he had to trade subban this was a way way better deal. Can anyone really think anymore that bergevin even has a clue?
 

McGuires Corndog

Marc Bergevin juju exorcist
Sponsor
Feb 6, 2008
25,742
12,860
Montreal
Keller would have been a good choice at 5 for us.

Even better yet would have been just merely standing pat and doing nothing.

Keep Eller
Keep Subban
Draft Sergachev
Draft Debrincat/Girard (that’s best case, we probably don’t draft both)

That’s where I deviate, I would have traded Pacioretty that offseason. His stock was as high as ever, he still had 3 years on that great contract and his playoff ineffectiveness still wasn’t completely glaring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doc McKenna

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
24,283
17,385
Quebec City, Canada
Even better yet would have been just merely standing pat and doing nothing.

Keep Eller
Keep Subban
Draft Sergachev
Draft Debrincat/Girard (that’s best case, we probably don’t draft both)

That’s where I deviate, I would have traded Pacioretty that offseason. His stock was as high as ever, he still had 3 years on that great contract and his playoff ineffectiveness still wasn’t completely glaring.

There's no denying than by standing pat and finding a good coach our team would be better.

Patch-DD-Gallagher
Hudon-AG-Scherbak
Lehkonen-Eller-Gheto
Carr-Plekanec-Weise

Markov-Subban
Mete-Petry
Beaulieu-Emelin (or Emelin-Juulsen)

imo and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind this team is performing better than we are this season. Absolutely no doubt in my mind. It's a slightly younger team too.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->