Training Camp Thread (UPD:9/26)

[Minister of Offence]

Gryba has not looked good these first games. Doing a lot of reacting as opposed to initiating. He looks a tad slow when he does that. I'm really hopeful Claesson gets his 9 game shot. He has looked great.

You just have no way of knowing if these things clean up by the time the games matter. Same thing about players that tear up preseason. The answer is usually that the preseason is an act.

 

[Cosmix]

http://senators.nhl.com/club/m_blogs.htm?id=31993

Coach comments after Friday's scrimmages

To me sounds like he's setting the table for Lazar back to junior... And Cowen and Wiercioch are both on notice to step up.

I read his comments and find that Maclean talks too much about "just play like yourself". I think he could be more communicative and tell us what exactly he would like to see improved upon for each player.

I think Lazar may get into a few games, but will be sent back to Junior for the rest of the season.

I don't see Grant making the team nor getting called up, as i think Puempel, Pageau, and possibly Robinson and Dizzy are ahead of him, and the team already has Greening, Neil, Smith and Condra.

I think Condra will be a UFA at the end of the season and not extended as others such as Robinson, Grant, and Puempel will be in line to get hiis spot at a lower salary.

 

[StefanW]

I read his comments and find that Maclean talks too much about "just play like yourself". I think he could be more communicative and tell us what exactly he would like to see improved upon for each player.

I think Lazar may get into a few games, but will be sent back to Junior for the rest of the season.

I don't see Grant making the team nor getting called up, as i think Puempel, Pageau, and possibly Robinson and Dizzy are ahead of him, and the team already has Greening, Neil, Smith and Condra.

I think Condra will be a UFA at the end of the season and not extended as others such as Robinson, Grant, and Puempel will be in line to get hiis spot at a lower salary.

I don't agree at all that he has to tell us any such thing. He does, however, 100% have to tell the players that stuff when he talks with them one to one.

 

[Cosmix]

You just have no way of knowing if these things clean up by the time the games matter. Same thing about players that tear up preseason. The answer is usually that the preseason is an act.

That may be true for many veterans; however, in Gryba's case, he has always been a slow skater, slow to make a play, and not very physical. He has improved his speed in making passes or clearing the puck from the D zone before he is checked; however he will never be able to skate the puck out of the zone because of his slowness and low puckhandling skills. I think there is one opportunity for him to retain his position on the third defense pairing, and that is to become more physical, using his size and strength to advantage. Due to his slowness he cannot close the gaps because he will then be beat by swift forwards who will shoot the puck by him and beat him to it or take it wide around him.

Phillips is slowing down too and is now vulnerable to the same swift forward attack. He seems to be compensating for his slowing speed by allowing a bigger gap between him and the attacking forwards.

 

[Cosmix]

I don't agree at all that he has to tell us any such thing. He does, however, 100% have to tell the players that stuff when he talks with them one to one.

You are correct; Maclean does not have to tell us anything; however, it would be interesting to know why he is coaching and using players like he does. Telling fans what he would like to see players do to improve their game would be much better than some of his comments so far. He does not have to be like Tortorella or Keenan, but providing meaningful constructive comments is much better than what he serves up now.

 

[bert]

http://senators.nhl.com/club/m_blogs.htm?id=31993

Coach comments after Friday's scrimmages

To me sounds like he's setting the table for Lazar back to junior... And Cowen and Wiercioch are both on notice to step up.

He is saying all the right things and I like it. If Lazar is going to play he has to take his spot, the concerns about a 19 year old over an 82 game season are very real and there is no reason to rush him. I know everyone wants him here but Ottawa has a few players knocking on the door the reason is that they were developed properly. The same will be done with Lazar.

His assessment of Cowen and Wiercioch is also accurate time to be real players. No more excuses 3 years in the league and they have had time to get used to their bodies. I think for both of them its a huge year.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

He is saying all the right things and I like it. If Lazar is going to play he has to take his spot, the concerns about a 19 year old over an 82 game season are very real and there is no reason to rush him. I know everyone wants him here but Ottawa has a few players knocking on the door the reason is that they were developed properly. The same will be done with Lazar.

His assessment of Cowen and Wiercioch is also accurate time to be real players. No more excuses 3 years in the league and they have had time to get used to their bodies. I think for both of them its a huge year.

Bit of a stretch, Cowen has played just slightly more than 2 full seasons (one while recuperating from major surgery) in the league and Wiercoich isn't even close to two full regular seasons.

While I have no problem with Mac saying they need to be good players, maybe he needs to ask himself why he sat the two for a combined 38 games while he played Phillips every night, except when injured.

Phillips was a -12, Cowen and Wiercoich were a combined +1, yet team defense was a problem, go figure.

So if Mac expects these guys will somehow show up better because they are one year older, then he might just be a fool.

While I do expect both Cowen and Wiercoich to be better and definitely understand the team's need for them to be better, Mac has to stop waiting until the wheels fall off his veterans then say the kids better produce or else.

 

[WhiteLight*]

I guess it comes down to role. Are Arcobello Lander and Draisaitl guys you want to play limited mins in a defensive/energy role? If they need Gordon in a top 9 role, they'd probably be better off with Grant in the lineup and Draisaitl getting big mins in the minor league. Same goes with Lander, though I'm not sure they'll get more development out of Arcobello.

It's like DaCosta vs Grant. DaCosta was a far better player, but Grant was getting more opportunity because he fit the needed role better.

Gordon is a bottom six centre. Lander is an all-around checking type, would have no problem fitting in on a 3rd line with his style. I dunno, Drasaitl and Lander might not make the team they seem to be better options than Grant right now

Grant is going to develop into an excellent 4th line forward one day.

He's a mini Zack Smith. Big strong skating centerman that is responsible defensively, not terrible offensively and can win battles all over the ice with his size.

I'd put out a claim for him if my team was lacking a big defensively responsible 4th line forward.

Ottawa loves Smith. Hard to believe they would waive the next Smith without giving him a shot first. imo Grant can't shoot like Smith and doesn't have his drive and strength.

 

[aragorn]

That may be true for many veterans; however, in Gryba's case, he has always been a slow skater, slow to make a play, and not very physical. He has improved his speed in making passes or clearing the puck from the D zone before he is checked; however he will never be able to skate the puck out of the zone because of his slowness and low puckhandling skills. I think there is one opportunity for him to retain his position on the third defense pairing, and that is to become more physical, using his size and strength to advantage. Due to his slowness he cannot close the gaps because he will then be beat by swift forwards who will shoot the puck by him and beat him to it or take it wide around him.

Phillips is slowing down too and is now vulnerable to the same swift forward attack. He seems to be compensating for his slowing speed by allowing a bigger gap between him and the attacking forwards.

Gryba is a right shot & only Kalrsson & Ceci on his roster also play the right side. IMO that gives Gryba an edge over some other defencemen afterall Gryba is the 6th defenceman on this team.

Bit of a stretch, Cowen has played just slightly more than 2 full seasons (one while recuperating from major surgery) in the league and Wiercoich isn't even close to two full regular seasons.

While I have no problem with Mac saying they need to be good players, maybe he needs to ask himself why he sat the two for a combined 38 games while he played Phillips every night, except when injured.

Phillips was a -12, Cowen and Wiercoich were a combined +1, yet team defense was a problem, go figure.

So if Mac expects these guys will somehow show up better because they are one year older, then he might just be a fool.

While I do expect both Cowen and Wiercoich to be better and definitely understand the team's need for them to be better, Mac has to stop waiting until the wheels fall off his veterans then say the kids better produce or else.

PM was runner up for coach of the yr in the NHL & then won coach of the yr What makes people think they know more about hockey, this team or how to coach these players than PM? I'm guessing PM & the coaching staff see & know things about each individual player more so than any of us that go into his decision making, afterall that is what he is paid for. We on the other hand get to criticize after the fact. IMO with the extensions given to Phillips & Boro that kind of makes Wiercioch expendable, especially if Methot re-signs.

 

[Cosmix]

He is saying all the right things and I like it. If Lazar is going to play he has to take his spot, the concerns about a 19 year old over an 82 game season are very real and there is no reason to rush him. I know everyone wants him here but Ottawa has a few players knocking on the door the reason is that they were developed properly. The same will be done with Lazar.

His assessment of Cowen and Wiercioch is also accurate time to be real players. No more excuses 3 years in the league and they have had time to get used to their bodies. I think for both of them its a huge year.

I agree with most of what you said; however, there are some commenters on this board who have suggested that Lazar should and will likely be sent back to junior this year. So not "everyone" wants him on the team this year UNLESS he dominates against NHL players, not just prospects.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Gryba is a right shot & only Kalrsson & Ceci on his roster also play the right side. IMO that gives Gryba an edge over some other defencemen afterall Gryba is the 6th defenceman on this team.


PM was runner up for coach of the yr in the NHL & then won coach of the yr What makes people think they know more about hockey, this team or how to coach these players than PM? I'm guessing PM & the coaching staff see & know things about each individual player more so than any of us that go into his decision making, afterall that is what he is paid for. We on the other hand get to criticize after the fact. IMO with the extensions given to Phillips & Boro that kind of makes Wiercioch expendable, especially if Methot re-signs.

Well I don't believe successful franchises play 36 year old D that are clearly declining ahead of developing and better 22 - 23 year old D, all of whom play the same side.

The year Mac won the coach of the year he had no choice but play the kids, he also had a leader in the room that made his transition to head coach a fairly easy one.

So before I anoint Mac the second coming of Scottie Bowman, what happened to the coach of the year last season?

Well his team played like cr** and his decision making was questionable. As a result he wasn't nominated for anything because he failed to get the players to buy into anything.

I also don't believe its a hockey knowledge issue, it a human interaction issue and based on reports Mac got an earful about how poorly he handled the players.

IMO using the Jack Adams Award to support your notion that since Mac won it so he can't be questioned, is to ignore who votes for this award.

Give you a hint, Brennan and Garrioch are two, now tell me you believe they are more hockey knowledgeable than the average informed fan.

My issue with Mac isn't about his hockey knowledge anyway, its about his openly stated preference for veteran players, which I believe has hurt this team, slowed player development and will likely hurt it again this year (though hopefully not).

So while I am not as eminently qualified to coach as Mac, I do know that preconceived bias can be a slippery slope and a path that doesn't lead to long term success.

Players like Cowen, Weircoich, Zibanejad, Puempel, JGP, etc have to be able to believe the head coach when he says "the best players play", but I wonder if they do.

The latest misstep by Mac,after Lehner signed his contract he said BM & Co. told him whoever plays the best will start, Murray confirmed that is what the club told Lehner.

Then at the opening of camp Mac states, Anderson is the #1 goalie without a game being played.

IMO this is not the stuff of long term successful coaches, thus my criticism.

PS now maybe none of this would matter on a veteran ladened team like Mac is accustomed to in Detroit, but Ottawa is young and probably going to be young for several more years, so Mac needs to adjust IMO.

 

[Cosmix]

Gryba is a right shot & only Kalrsson & Ceci on his roster also play the right side. IMO that gives Gryba an edge over some other defencemen afterall Gryba is the 6th defenceman on this team.


PM was runner up for coach of the yr in the NHL & then won coach of the yr What makes people think they know more about hockey, this team or how to coach these players than PM? I'm guessing PM & the coaching staff see & know things about each individual player more so than any of us that go into his decision making, afterall that is what he is paid for. We on the other hand get to criticize after the fact. IMO with the extensions given to Phillips & Boro that kind of makes Wiercioch expendable, especially if Methot re-signs.

Yes, the fact that Gryba shoots right does give him an edge, but i don't think it is a big edge that cannot be eliminated or overcome by a better skating defenseman who shoots left but plays on the right side. I suppose that may be why the team is giving Wiercioch an opportunity to play the right side; however, his skating is not much better than Gryba's, but his passing and puckhandling seem to be better.

Regarding your comments about the coaching staff, yees they are pros and probably know more than the commentors on this forum; but the forum is for expression of opinions, even though many of them might stink in some peoples' views. But the debate is part of the fun.

If Wiercioch can make the transition to RD, then Gryba could become the expendable one.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Ottawa loves Smith. Hard to believe they would waive the next Smith without giving him a shot first. imo Grant can't shoot like Smith and doesn't have his drive and strength.

They waived Hoffman last year, and every indication they have given since has been that they really like him as a player.

There's simply not enough roster spots to keep a 4th line guy with a 2-way contract on the roster. Sending him down doesn't mean they don't think much of him as a player. Grant playing 20 games with the big club last year should be enough to tell you they like his game.

 

[Lenny the Lynx]

There are so few examples off bubble guys like Grant getting claimed on the way to the nhl. It's just so unlikely that another team will put these guys on their roster especially when they have their own guys to cut/fit

 

[WhiteLight*]

They waived Hoffman last year, and every indication they have given since has been that they really like him as a player.

There's simply not enough roster spots to keep a 4th line guy with a 2-way contract on the roster. Sending him down doesn't mean they don't think much of him as a player. Grant playing 20 games with the big club last year should be enough to tell you they like his game.

They kept 18 or 19 forwards ahead of him, including Dizzy...

I get it if he was one of the final cuts, but that's not the case

 

[aragorn]

Well I don't believe successful franchises play 36 year old D that are clearly declining ahead of developing and better 22 - 23 year old D, all of whom play the same side.

The year Mac won the coach of the year he had no choice but play the kids, he also had a leader in the room that made his transition to head coach a fairly easy one.

So before I anoint Mac the second coming of Scottie Bowman, what happened to the coach of the year last season?

Well his team played like cr** and his decision making was questionable. As a result he wasn't nominated for anything because he failed to get the players to buy into anything.

I also don't believe its a hockey knowledge issue, it a human interaction issue and based on reports Mac got an earful about how poorly he handled the players.

IMO using the Jack Adams Award to support your notion that since Mac won it so he can't be questioned, is to ignore who votes for this award.

Give you a hint, Brennan and Garrioch are two, now tell me you believe they are more hockey knowledgeable than the average informed fan.

My issue with Mac isn't about his hockey knowledge anyway, its about his openly stated preference for veteran players, which I believe has hurt this team, slowed player development and will likely hurt it again this year (though hopefully not).

So while I am not as eminently qualified to coach as Mac, I do know that preconceived bias can be a slippery slope and a path that doesn't lead to long term success.

Players like Cowen, Weircoich, Zibanejad, Puempel, JGP, etc have to be able to believe the head coach when he says "the best players play", but I wonder if they do.

The latest misstep by Mac,after Lehner signed his contract he said BM & Co. told him whoever plays the best will start, Murray confirmed that is what the club told Lehner.

Then at the opening of camp Mac states, Anderson is the #1 goalie without a game being played.

IMO this is not the stuff of long term successful coaches, thus my criticism.

PS now maybe none of this would matter on a veteran ladened team like Mac is accustomed to in Detroit, but Ottawa is young and probably going to be young for several more years, so Mac needs to adjust IMO.

The 36 yr old you speak of is Chris Phillips who they just gave a 2 yr contract to. I don't think they re-signed him to sit & watch the kids play. I think they will move one of their young guys & I've already mentioned that I think it will be Wiercioch.

It's not just PM that makes the decisions, he has a staff & an experienced GM to talk to & come to conclusions & decisions. While so many people on here want to play the young guys it could be that they are not playing the game the way this coach & his staff want them to play or they are not quite ready yet or they make too many mistakes. Of course, I think Phillips makes more mistakes than most but I'm not the coach & if I were the GM I would not have re-signed him. While the average fan doesn't quite understand all the nuances or see the reasons why, some experienced players know what the coach wants & plays the game the way he wants & he plays them. Most coaches trust veteran players over young players, you see it all over the league. Yes, there is a transition happening in the NHL to younger players & Ottawa is headed in that direction as well but its quite likely that not all our young players are making the transition as quickly or as well as the coaching staff would like.

Brennan & Garrioch have been watching the Ottawa Senators since the team came to town which is longer than a number of people on this site. I'm not saying that I agree with everything they say, I'm saying they are not always wrong & their job description is to sell newspapers & entertain their subscribers. People on here disagree with all kinds of hockey analysts, writers & coaches, it doesn't mean they are right & know more than these people who write about hockey for a living or analyse hockey for a living or coach hockey for a living but I do think they know more than the average fan on here. We may know more about the prospects in the organization regarding basic information about them that we gather on the web but most of these people don't follow every prospect from every team either. We don't really know all of the strengths & weaknesses of every player like their coaches do, I think that's a fact. We analyse them based on what we see from the stands or on TV or what we read in the paper or internet or hear on the radio. But we don't know how they are working the system, missing assignments, competing away from the puck & all the little things that coaches notice & care about more than the average fan.

I also disagree with you regarding the goaltending, Anderson is the vet & he has a resume in the NHL. Lehner has yet to prove himself consistently in the NHL as a backup let alone as a starter. Anderson is the #1, I think the majority of people including Lehner himself agree with that. Anderson doesn't have to prove himself in training camp, Lehner does as the young guy but Anderson does need to play well to stay in the net during the season or they will turn it over to Lehner. There are examples of this all over the league where established goaltenders play. I'm not saying they don't have to compete in training camp, I'm saying they are established & because of that fact they are pretty much guaranteed to start the season as the #1 but they can just as easily lose the job if they don't perform to expectations.

Yes, the fact that Gryba shoots right does give him an edge, but i don't think it is a big edge that cannot be eliminated or overcome by a better skating defenseman who shoots left but plays on the right side. I suppose that may be why the team is giving Wiercioch an opportunity to play the right side; however, his skating is not much better than Gryba's, but his passing and puckhandling seem to be better.

Regarding your comments about the coaching staff, yees they are pros and probably know more than the commentors on this forum; but the forum is for expression of opinions, even though many of them might stink in some peoples' views. But the debate is part of the fun.

If Wiercioch can make the transition to RD, then Gryba could become the expendable one.

That is a possibility & it will be fun to watch how it pans out but my money is still on Wiercioch being the guy moved out. Injuries could also play a role here where 2 defencemen or more could be hurt at the same time for a prolonged time limit & Ottawa may not be able to trade one for a while. That could give a guy like Wiercioch more time to prove himself & play himself back into the good books. You never know what could happen.

They waived Hoffman last year, and every indication they have given since has been that they really like him as a player.

There's simply not enough roster spots to keep a 4th line guy with a 2-way contract on the roster. Sending him down doesn't mean they don't think much of him as a player. Grant playing 20 games with the big club last year should be enough to tell you they like his game.

While I like Grant, I really think this is Hoffman's time to show what he can do. They gave Connacher quite a bit of time last yr before they waived him. I would also think that if Hoffman cannot win a roster spot they might package him along with a defencemen to get someone they think they need. Hoffman will be another interesting story line to watch.

 

[StefanW]

Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC · 1h
Everyone on waivers yesterday cleared

No waiver casualties yet.

 

[Quo]

I guess the Islanders exceeded their quota last year.

 

[StefanW]

I guess the Islanders exceeded their quota last year.

The number of contracts you can have catches up with you.

 

[senswon]

Wish they woulda picked up Markstrom from Vancouver

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Wish they woulda picked up Markstrom from Vancouver

Who's spot are you giving him? Lehner or Anderson?

 

[Tundraman]

Lazar recently commented that no one has said anything to him so he guesses no news is good news. Until cut down day, MacLean seems to prefer to send general messages to the wannabes through the press rather than in person.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

Who's spot are you giving him? Lehner or Anderson?

If Markstrom is anything like he was projected to be, a tandem of Lehner/Markstrom in a couple of years would have been sexy. But no way could we afford to take that sort of risk now. Not to mention you'd need to find a taker for Andy.

 

[Quo]

Lazar recently commented that no one has said anything to him so he guesses no news is good news. Until cut down day, MacLean seems to prefer to send general messages to the wannabes through the press rather than in person.

How much do you wanna bet that he's said the exact same thing, and maybe not so politely, to their faces?

 

[Tundraman]

How much do you wanna bet that he's said the exact same thing, and maybe not so politely, to their faces?

It would surprise me except maybe yelling during a drill or something as was reported but he may have thrown it out to the group. Rarely does a message work unless it's one on one. In a group everyone thinks he means the other guy. Even Chiasson during a very recent interview when asked said the players seem to respect and like MacLean but he himself had only spoken to him briefly a couple of times. It doesn't sound like MacLean does a lot of one on one mentoring.