Training Camp Thread (UPD:9/26)

[StefanW]

It would surprise me except maybe yelling during a drill or something as was reported but he may have thrown it out to the group. Rarely does a message work unless it's one on one. In a group everyone thinks he means the other guy. Even Chiasson during a very recent interview when asked said the players seem to respect and like MacLean but he himself had only spoken to him briefly a couple of times. It doesn't sound like MacLean does a lot of one on one mentoring.

Conjecture is not your friend.

 

[Tundraman]

Conjecture is not your friend.

What can I say..... I quoted 2 players. Maybe it's because they don't need it.

 

[StefanW]

What can I say..... I quoted 2 players. Maybe it's because they don't need it.

First off, you quoted no one. Instead, you gave your slant on what a couple of players said. In fact, you did not provide links so that others can see what was said for themselves.

To give you an idea of how badly skewed this is, you used Lazar saying "no news is good news", which is as common as a player saying they have to give 110%, and twisted it up to mean that MacLean does not communicate with his players.

When the interpretation of a quote is skewed that badly it comes across (rightly or wrongly) as an agenda at work. If you want to fix this, then provide links and use direct quotes (in quotation marks) from the players. That way you can put your spin on it, and everyone can see what is happening and come to their own conclusions.

 

[Tundraman]

First off, you quoted no one. Instead, you gave your slant on what a couple of players said. In fact, you did not provide links so that others can see what was said for themselves.

To give you an idea of how badly skewed this is, you used Lazar saying "no news is good news", which is as common as a player saying they have to give 110%, and twisted it up to mean that MacLean does not communicate with his players.

When the interpretation of a quote is skewed that badly it comes across (rightly or wrongly) as an agenda at work. If you want to fix this, then provide links and use direct quotes (in quotation marks) from the players. That way you can put your spin on it, and everyone can see what is happening and come to their own conclusions.

If you want direct word for word quotes then you will have to listen to TSN1200 clips from late this past week. Sorry but I haven't the time or inclination to search for you.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/09/26/ottawa-sens-prospect-curtis-lazar-doing-what-he-can-to-make-a-spot-for-himself

In this case, silence is golden so far.

"I haven't heard much feedback from anyone," said Lazar. "I'm assuming that no feedback is good feedback at this point. I'm also just enjoying the ride because it's been a lot of fun so far."

Asked for an assessment of Lazar's camp, coach Paul MacLean said he's been "okay". On the surface that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement from one of the decision makers.

Have a good day.

 

[Quo]

It would surprise me except maybe yelling during a drill or something as was reported but he may have thrown it out to the group. Rarely does a message work unless it's one on one. In a group everyone thinks he means the other guy. Even Chiasson during a very recent interview when asked said the players seem to respect and like MacLean but he himself had only spoken to him briefly a couple of times. It doesn't sound like MacLean does a lot of one on one mentoring.

Camp ain't over and none of the players you referenced have much to do with anything that was said in public. Maybe for some, brief is better?

 

[Cosmix]

If you want direct word for word quotes then you will have to listen to TSN1200 clips from late this past week. Sorry but I haven't the time or inclination to search for you.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/09/26/ottawa-sens-prospect-curtis-lazar-doing-what-he-can-to-make-a-spot-for-himself



Have a good day.

It is surprising to me that a young highly thought of prospect is not getting feedback from anyone on the coaching staff on his play from day to day. Maclean saying he is doing "okay" seems to be a less than enthusiastic remark, but I would not read too much into it at this time.

 

[Samsquanch]

It is surprising to me that a young highly thought of prospect is not getting feedback from anyone on the coaching staff on his play from day to day. Maclean saying he is doing "okay" seems to be a less than enthusiastic remark, but I would not read too much into it at this time.

Very surprising to me too. How are they not working very closely with him everyday?

As a 19 year old looking to make the Nhl roster, Lazar should not have to "assume" anything about his play thus far. He should have been well informed of where they see his strengths and weaknesses, and what he should be working on.

 

[StefanW]

It is surprising to me that a young highly thought of prospect is not getting feedback from anyone on the coaching staff on his play from day to day. Maclean saying he is doing "okay" seems to be a less than enthusiastic remark, but I would not read too much into it at this time.

When he made the quote the Sens had not even paired down their roster for the first time yet. If Mac spends 10 mins giving individual feedback with each of the 57 players invited to camp per day that would work out to 9.5 hours. That is on top of practices, games, and split squad games.

I would expect more feedback to come once the roster is cut down to a reasonable size. And even then, you always have to be careful not to get too much into a player's head. At the initial stages coach wanted to see what Lazar is rather than seeing Lazar acting like what he believes the coach wants him to be (if this makes sense).

 

[Quo]

Very surprising to me too. How are they not working very closely with him everyday?

As a 19 year old looking to make the Nhl roster, Lazar should not have to "assume" anything about his play thus far. He should have been well informed of where they see his strengths and weaknesses, and what he should be working on.

Is Lazar an infant?

 

[L'Aveuglette]

What surprises me is that MacLean seems so unimpressed with Lazar. From all I've seen and heard he's been more than good, especially given his age. If I was his coach, I'd definitely give more of my time to the kid. Weird how Paul only thinks he's been "ok".

 

[Samsquanch]

Is Lazar an infant?

Lol for all intent and purposes, yes.

That comment was made by Lazar before the first cuts. That obviously changes things.

Would you not be concerned if that comment was made yesterday, and no one would have talked with lazar (like at all) by this point in camp?

I sure as hell would be.

 

[Quo]

Lol for all intent and purposes, yes.

That comment was made by Lazar before the first cuts. That obviously changes things.

Would you not be concerned if that comment was made yesterday, and no one would have talked with lazar (like at all) by this point in camp?

I sure as hell would be.

Well, I will point out that Paul is in perhaps the one position in the organization where pumping Lazar's tires on a daily basis or holding his hand throughout the process should not be expected. I think it should be the opposite.

As well, that 'infant' is trying to make it in a man's league and if he wants to stick he shouldn't have a leg up on the rest of the players there just because he's young and promising. These things are earned. He's in the process of earning it, showing how far he's come (pretty far from my limited viewings).

And, yeah, no news is often the best news. He's still here. If that's not enough for him, along with whatever instruction he's absorbed in practices and scrimmages then I don't know if I'd want him on the team. These are hockey players under the guidance of a former hockey player. I don't imagine hurting the players feelings is very high on Mac's priority list.

There will be time after camp is done for full accounting of what he needs to do moving forward, whether he makes it or not.

another edit: And who's to say that nothing has been communicated to him since those comments?

 

[The King of Town]

What surprises me is that MacLean seems so unimpressed with Lazar. From all I've seen and heard he's been more than good, especially given his age. If I was his coach, I'd definitely give more of my time to the kid. Weird how Paul only thinks he's been "ok".

MacLean did the same thing with Karlsson in his first training camp as head coach, and people here predictably freaked out.

The kid has enough hype already, he doesn't need the coach's help in that regard. Mac is trying to manage expectations, and keep the kid grounded and focused. He doesn't need the pressure (even though like Karlsson he seems to thrive under it).

It's not his job to be best buddies with the players and prospects. That's the assistant coaches' jobs.

EDIT: Quo, well said.

 

[Samsquanch]

Well, I will point out that Paul is in perhaps the one position in the organization where pumping Lazar's tires on a daily basis or holding his hand throughout the process should not be expected. I think it should be the opposite.

As well, that 'infant' is trying to make it in a man's league and if he wants to stick he shouldn't have a leg up on the rest of the players there just because he's young and promising. These things are earned. He's in the process of earning it, showing how far he's come (pretty far from my limited viewings).

And, yeah, no news is often the best news. He's still here. If that's not enough for him, along with whatever instruction he's absorbed in practices and scrimmages then I don't know if I'd want him on the team. These are hockey players under the guidance of a former hockey player. I don't imagine hurting the players feelings is very high on Mac's priority list.

There will be time after camp is done for full accounting of what he needs to do moving forward, whether he makes it or not.

I dunno. For an organization that prides itself on drafting and player development, I would have hoped that by this point in camp, someone would have spoken to Lazar. Which I'm sure they have by now...

I dont think that's asking a whole lot of the coaching staff/management.

No one said that they have to gush over him to his face. I would hope they would've had some constructive criticism.

 

[StefanW]

Well, I will point out that Paul is in perhaps the one position in the organization where pumping Lazar's tires on a daily basis or holding his hand throughout the process should not be expected. I think it should be the opposite.

As well, that 'infant' is trying to make it in a man's league and if he wants to stick he shouldn't have a leg up on the rest of the players there just because he's young and promising. These things are earned. He's in the process of earning it, showing how far he's come (pretty far from my limited viewings).

And, yeah, no news is often the best news. He's still here. If that's not enough for him, along with whatever instruction he's absorbed in practices and scrimmages then I don't know if I'd want him on the team. These are hockey players under the guidance of a former hockey player. I don't imagine hurting the players feelings is very high on Mac's priority list.

There will be time after camp is done for full accounting of what he needs to do moving forward, whether he makes it or not.

another edit: And who's to say that nothing has been communicated to him since those comments?

Yeah, starting with "quit whining and *****ing to the media."

 

[Quo]

I dunno. For an organization that prides itself on drafting and player development, I would have hoped that by this point in camp, someone would have spoken to Lazar. Which I'm sure they have by now...

I dont think that's asking a whole lot of the coaching staff/management.

No one said that they have to gush over him to his face. I would hope they would've had some constructive criticism.

Meh. I won't get too worked up either way. After this first round of cuts, it might have happened already, true. Would have been a good time to touch base.

Yeah, starting with "quit whining and *****ing to the media."

Oh yeah. That should have been in their welcome package upon being drafted. Full Ludovico treatment in their first rookie camp...

Thou shalt not, or suffer a very painful feeling all through your guttiwuts.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The NHL is not a developmental league.

While players are always learning and refining their skills, a guy is expected to be close to a finished product when he becomes a full time player in this league.

That's not to say there shouldn't be any kind of learning, mentoring and improvement. Obviously there is still a lot of practice time during the season, and the vets are important to help bring rookies and young guys up to speed. But this isn't elementary school where you're going to have your hand held every step of the way.

 

[aragorn]

What surprises me is that MacLean seems so unimpressed with Lazar. From all I've seen and heard he's been more than good, especially given his age. If I was his coach, I'd definitely give more of my time to the kid. Weird how Paul only thinks he's been "ok".

I haven't seen enough out of Lazar to keep him & not send him back especially with all the one way contracts & two young guys Stone & Hoffman who deserve a shot first. Throughout this preseason he has been good defensively & okay offensively but certainly hasn't dominated or made spectacular plays. He is going to be IMO a very good two way player with offensive potential but he is 19 yrs old & still has some learning to do. I will even predict that next season he starts the yr in Bingo before being called up at some point in the yr, probably half way through the season. Stone played in Bingo & IMO he had a much better junior career & WJC.

 

[Tundraman]

The cuts were made Thursday and Lazar gave the interview Friday. It's easy to see from listening to him that Lazar is like a sponge that soaks up the atmosphere and needs personal reinforcement. It was Lazar who said last season that he called the Sens regularly to ask for feedback and what he could work on. It may sound a bit strange that he is so eager but it could also be that he really wants to make the team and expects regular specific feedback about his play and his status.

At his age Lazar probably hasn't yet fully realized the politics of hockey. He could do everything they ask of him and still be sent back to junior. If he is sent back he won't be the first young Sens player who thought he was doing well based on his own expectations and limited perspective doesn't understand why he was cut. It seems common in hockey for management to rely on exit feedback when cutting players (the coach / GM wants to see you in his office) rather than providing ongoing counsel, explanations and expectations so there are few surprises. It doesn't matter how many players are in camp it's pretty easy to spot the obvious gems that need special attention and most guys here could have listed within 1 or 2 the probable top 30 last week keepers before day 1 of camp. Don't ask for specific quotes but I can think of Z-Bad and Lehner as just 2 examples at some point in the past who were puzzled by their treatment while we the fans had a pretty clear picture of what was going on and debated it at length on this and other fan sites.

 

[Samsquanch]

I just don't get this mentality here. Apparently having some form of open communication between the players and management is taboo, and everyone should know what their role is, and what is expected of them.. wouldn't want to coddle anyone..

Reality is that both the players and management are all in this together. And the more people you have on the same page, buying into the same program, the better our team is going to be.

Again, I think we all agree that some discussions have probably occurred at this point in time. So I don't even really know what were talking about anymore.

 

[Quo]

When he intercepted a puck in the neutral zone and took off like a bat out of hell for a little breakaway opportunity against the Leafs, I got very happy. Chills. Smart player. Picks his spots. Has the tools to make people pay. I like his physical game as well. Doesn't let anyone off easy.

 

[aragorn]

IMO I think there is a lot of talking, that is what practices are all about. They may not talk to him specifically all the time but when they are drawing up systems, watching film, the assistant coaches & players all help out with teaching moments on & off the ice. I guess everyone wants PM to take him aside every few minutes so he can tell that to the newspapers that the coach is giving him a great deal of attention. I'm quite sure if he has questions he will ask players or coaches & there are a lot of them to ask, I think it's a good sign if he is understanding things well.

Nylander in Toronto said that Carlyle hasn't talked to him either. My experience with most coaches is that if he is talking specifically with you it's because you screwed up, it could be a good thing that he doesn't talk a lot to him.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I just don't get this mentality here. Apparently having some form of open communication between the players and management is taboo, and everyone should know what their role is, and what is expected of them.. wouldn't want to coddle anyone..

Reality is that both the players and management are all in this together. And the more people you have on the same page, buying into the same program, the better our team is going to be.

Again, I think we all agree that some discussions have probably occurred at this point in time. So I don't even really know what were talking about anymore.

I think a lot of it is the change in length of training camps the past decade or so. There was a time when guys used training camp to get into shape because the camp was so long. But now, you need to process around 60 players, get guys down tot he farm asap to prep for that league, there are pretty substantial limitations to get guys back to their NCAA/junior/European clubs as well for things like schooling and the earlier start in European leagues. There simply isn't a whole lot of time anymore.

And I think StefanW touches on a very good point. MacLean sad a few times in interviews he wanted guys to play 'like themselves.' That is, play the style that got you drafted, and got you here. There have been times in the past where young guys know a coach likes a certain style of play and try to completely change their game just to impress the coach (a finesse guy suddenly trying to throw hits when he clearly doesn't have the ability to try that against NHL-level guys, for example).

The kids are already on a steep learning curve trying to absorb everything in a pro camp. You don't want to give them too much info/feedback and add more complexity to it.

 

[BK201]

Do you guy think if 9MM stays out a while puempel will get a look?

 

[aragorn]

Do you guy think if 9MM stays out a while puempel will get a look?

Yes, but I don't think that 9MM will miss the start of the season, in fact, I would be surprised if he misses Tuesday's game.