Trade Proposals

[EvenSteven]

Just throwing this out there for fun:

Kitchener and Windsor have sort of a relationship now after having done an "I'll scratch your back you scratch mine" trade (Bracco/ Stanley), that was a little controversial because of their "circumvention" of the "Kadri rule" if you will.

How about they do another controversial deal that comes close to circumventing another trade deadline rule?

The league put a rule in place to prevent teams from loaning players to other teams and then having them traded right back in the off-season. I believe the rule states that a player can't go back to the team he came from for 13 months. For example, back in 1990, Windsor "loaned" Jason York to the Rangers for their memorial cup run only to send York right back to Windsor in the off-season. That type of trade is no longer allowed.

For discussion, how about Windsor sends DiPietro and Vilardi to Kitchener for a sizeable package. For arguments sake, (we can debate the actual price) let's say six 2nds and six 3rds. Then at next year's trade deadline, they can be sent right back to Windsor along with Grayson Ladd for less of a package - say three 2nds and three 3rds.

Dec 1st:
To Kitchener: DiPietro and Vilardi
To Windsor: six 2nds and six 3rds

Jan 3,2019:
To Kitchener: three 2nds & three 3rds
To Windsor: DiPietro, Vilardi and Ladd.

Rangers would get a couple of ringers for this year's playoff run for a cost of, once part two of the deal is done, Ladd, three 2nds and three 3rds. Windsor get Ladd, three 2nds and three 3rds for, in effect, renting a couple of players. Then depending on their situation next year, Windsor could either keep them for a possible playoff run or sell them off for large assets at that deadline.

All that would have to happen is that the deal would be done say December 1 of this year. Then part two of the deal happens in the first week of January 2019. That would complete the 13 month window which is within the rules. It would give the Spits a few days get get a deal done next January should they decide to move one or both of them at that deadline.

There has been talk on here as to whether or not DiPietro would waive his NTC. I'm betting he would for this type of trade if he knew he was coming back to Windsor at next years trade deadline to possibly finish his OHL career as a Spitfire.

Of course, conditions would have to be in place in the event one or both of Vilardi and DiPietro aren't returned to the OHL next year or if they suffer some kind of long-term injury etc. It would be a complicated deal but it could be done.

 

[dirty12]

Or, just make the rangers-spits trade; then, ship DiPietro elsewhere next season. Close to the same results, no controversy

 

[EvenSteven]

From the Rangers's point of view, sure. But from Windsor's point of view, there will be more incentive to make a deal if they knew they were getting them back this time next year. Otherwise, they may not want to deal them at all. This year anyway.

In all, Windsor would get more value out of them by renting them to Kitchener and then being able to trade them again this time next year.

 

[ohloutsider]

Taking the trade freeze into account teams have about 30 trading days left - things will start heating up as we get closer to the December freeze date. ( me thinks that is December 17th) The big moves will come after the WJT is over.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Steven, Windsor needs forwards. They're the 3rd lowest goal scoring team in the league. The only goal scorers on the Spits in double figures are guys that would not be returning and they account for 44% of the goals scored, included Smith/Day you're up over 50% now. Nothing against Ladd but with lack of picks, lack of forwards in the system. The Spits need a huge injection of skilled forwards, acquiring a bunch of picks isn't going to help the process next year or the year after most likely.

 

[OMG67]

well then they wont land Raddysh or Brown. And though might not bite them in the ass come playoff time ... it probably will. SSM adds Raddsyh and maybe more, they will leap frog Sarnia. If OS were to add a better goalie (especially Dipietro) and maybe a top 6 forward, they are more poised for a run. Don't forget London/Kitchener and Eastern teams making moves. Reality is that teams who buy cheap usually regret it - ask OS last year. Ask Erie in 2013-14. And usually teams that add the stars, not just a collection of solid players, win. Guelph in 2013-14 made the biggest splash. Erie/London last year.

Sarnia has 5 seconds until 2022. But just 2 thirds. They could scoop a nice, cheaper priced, forward instead of a Raddysh like piece. But it will still cost at least 2/3 of those picks. Caamano/Moore went for former 2000 first rounder Roberts and 1 second, 2 thirds.
And like I said, those "cheaper" moves probably wont be enough if SSM one upped you with a Raddysh move. Got to spend to get. And someone will be willing to spend. Imo the only asset Sarnia has that can get Raddysh is Rees. I know Sarnia doesnt want to move him but erie didnt want to move McShane. If you are going to make a championship run, Rees can't be in your top 6 anyways. Probably shouldn't really be in your top 9. Hurts the future but you dont need him to win this year. So if you actually want to win this year, you have to buy big

I kind of agree that moving Rees is a bad move for Sarnia. There are many teams that trade for top end talent and don’t have to move their first rounder. IT is very possible that Raddysh and Brown go elsewhere but it doesn’t mean that Sarnia has no other viable options.

If Sarnia were to move Rees for Raddysh then I think it needs to be a bigger move. Ottawa got Chmelevski in a package for Konecny and Studnicka. I think Sarnia would need another piece to make that work, preferably someone that is on roster next year to lessen the impact.

 

[OHLTG]

Windsor would essentially have to deal DiPietro within the next week in order for this to happen (13-month rule, I believe). I see no reason why they'd do this deal because, should they deal him, Brock Baier and Lucas Patton are waiting in the wings. Bringing DiPietro back would kind of be a slap in the face to both.

 

[bobber]

Windsor would essentially have to deal DiPietro within the next week in order for this to happen (13-month rule, I believe). I see no reason why they'd do this deal because, should they deal him, Brock Baier and Lucas Patton are waiting in the wings. Bringing DiPietro back would kind of be a slap in the face to both.

Also I doubt Windsor would want to get into anything fishy after being sanctioned. OHLTG do you believe they will trade DiPietro this season? He is the goalie any team making a run would want and there are a few teams that have some depth but really need huge improvements in net. Windsor could really fill the coffers with the tradable assets they have at the moment if they decide to go that route.

 

[OHLTG]

Yeah, that's definitely a risk. Dealing a player, then re-acquiring him, isn't something I'd attempt for a while, if ever.

If the right offer is there for DiPietro, I can see it. What is the right offer? I don't know - multiple seconds/thirds and a high-end 00 or 01, probably. While he has struggled over the last couple of weeks, we know he's one of the best in the league, if not the best, and his experience in the Memorial Cup is unquestionable. This is going to sound "on the fence", but it's true - I can see both sides of deal or no deal. I think, in the end, a team steps up and offers Rychel something he can't refuse. DiPietro has won a Cup so it's easier to waive any NTC (if he hadn't won in Windsor, no chance he's gone). He knows it'll help the team down the road and DiPietro has always struck me as the kid who does anything for the team. If I'm putting a percentage on it - 65/35 he's dealt.

 

[HF92]

I kind of agree that moving Rees is a bad move for Sarnia. There are many teams that trade for top end talent and don’t have to move their first rounder. IT is very possible that Raddysh and Brown go elsewhere but it doesn’t mean that Sarnia has no other viable options.

If Sarnia were to move Rees for Raddysh then I think it needs to be a bigger move. Ottawa got Chmelevski in a package for Konecny and Studnicka. I think Sarnia would need another piece to make that work, preferably someone that is on roster next year to lessen the impact.

Hounds will move Fowler for Raddysh.

If Sarnia wants Raddysh, theyll have to move Rees

Im going :
Fowler + 2nd in 2019 (FLT) + 2nd in 2020 + 3rd in 2018 + 4th in 2019 conditional ( if Raddysh returns, its a 3rd) for Raddysh.

That's Fowler + 4 picks.

 

[Petes]

Hounds will move Fowler for Raddysh.

If Sarnia wants Raddysh, theyll have to move Rees

Im going :
Fowler + 2nd in 2019 (FLT) + 2nd in 2020 + 3rd in 2018 + 4th in 2019 conditional ( if Raddysh returns, its a 3rd) for Raddysh.

That's Fowler + 4 picks.

Don't forget all first round selections receive no trade clauses. Fowler has to approve any trade.... he doesn't have to go anywhere if he doesn't want too.

 

[Ferda11]

Sarnia doesn’t need Raddysh. It would be a luxury but they do not NEED him. Rees will not be moved, bank on that.

 

[OMG67]

Hounds will move Fowler for Raddysh.

If Sarnia wants Raddysh, theyll have to move Rees

Im going :
Fowler + 2nd in 2019 (FLT) + 2nd in 2020 + 3rd in 2018 + 4th in 2019 conditional ( if Raddysh returns, its a 3rd) for Raddysh.

That's Fowler + 4 picks.

The problem with the logic of a team getting a 2001 is that not all 2001 are valued the same. The Hounds can trade Fowler as a 19th overall pick and it probably would not affect them this year or next so they are really only giving up on two years of Fowler for Raddysh.

The Sting will feel the loss of Rees right now so that is 3.5 years of Rees vs 2.0 years of Fowler.

Then factor in the impact of Rees vs Fowler as 18 and 19 year olds. I will say right here and now that Rees will be a much more impactful player than Fowler.

So, when factoring trade values etc, Fowler as a 19th pick is not really much more valuable than a 2nd round pick that is in the first couple picks, say 24th. Rees as a top 10 pick with 10 points in 13 games is so much more valuable than Fowler right now it really isn’t very close.

I remember back in 2010-2011 the 67’s were in the mix and there was a lot of trade talk. People were saying they’d have to trade Monahan to get a stud 19 year old. Again, Monahan was darn near a point per game player at 16 years old. What benefit would the 67’s have trading Monahan for a 19 year old that would outscore him by 30 points at seasons end? Same situation with Rees.

 

[Fischhaber]

The problem with the logic of a team getting a 2001 is that not all 2001 are valued the same. The Hounds can trade Fowler as a 19th overall pick and it probably would not affect them this year or next so they are really only giving up on two years of Fowler for Raddysh.

The Sting will feel the loss of Rees right now so that is 3.5 years of Rees vs 2.0 years of Fowler.

Then factor in the impact of Rees vs Fowler as 18 and 19 year olds. I will say right here and now that Rees will be a much more impactful player than Fowler.

So, when factoring trade values etc, Fowler as a 19th pick is not really much more valuable than a 2nd round pick that is in the first couple picks, say 24th. Rees as a top 10 pick with 10 points in 13 games is so much more valuable than Fowler right now it really isn’t very close.

I remember back in 2010-2011 the 67’s were in the mix and there was a lot of trade talk. People were saying they’d have to trade Monahan to get a stud 19 year old. Again, Monahan was darn near a point per game player at 16 years old. What benefit would the 67’s have trading Monahan for a 19 year old that would outscore him by 30 points at seasons end? Same situation with Rees.

You have to be careful with these early comparisons based on a small sample of games. Fowler could be a ppg player if the Hounds stuck him on the wing with Frost and Katchouk, but he's getting limited minutes on the 4th line with other rookies. I'm not saying one player is better than the other or that you are wrong, but teams probably don't see it the same way that you do. Getting a first round pick from the top scouting staff in the league has to be appealing, much more so than a second round pick.

 

[OMG67]

You have to be careful with these early comparisons based on a small sample of games. Fowler could be a ppg player if the Hounds stuck him on the wing with Frost and Katchouk, but he's getting limited minutes on the 4th line with other rookies. I'm not saying one player is better than the other or that you are wrong, but teams probably don't see it the same way that you do. Getting a first round pick from the top scouting staff in the league has to be appealing, much more so than a second round pick.

9th vs 19th overall

Typically speaking, those late first round picks are not top 2 line players through their first two seasons. With normal draft separation, the numbers favour my opinion.

Teams making deals will do an eye test but the numbers need to make sense too.

If Sarnia were to offer four 2nds and three 3rds and Sault were to offer Fowler and two 2nds and two 3rds, I still say the Sarnia offer has better value because Fowler is a 19th overall pick. Odds are pretty decent that one of those Sarnia picks will be inside the 25th pick. The relative difference between pick 18 and 25 is usually pretty small.

Barrie has a .660 Win%. Using the logic of Brown and Raddysh going for a 2001, would that mean Barrie has no chance at either of those two players unless they trade Suzuki? At what point does trading your 2001 not become reasonable? Would Windsor and Erie simply not even negotiate with Barrie because they know that they can not get Suzuki? Of course not. Each package will be weighed against the other. Windsor and Erie would “prefer” to get a quality 2001 but that doesn’t mean they will get it because there could be a better package that does not include a 2001.

 

[Fischhaber]

9th vs 19th overall

Typically speaking, those late first round picks are not top 2 line players through their first two seasons. With normal draft separation, the numbers favour my opinion.

Teams making deals will do an eye test but the numbers need to make sense too.

If Sarnia were to offer four 2nds and three 3rds and Sault were to offer Fowler and two 2nds and two 3rds, I still say the Sarnia offer has better value because Fowler is a 19th overall pick. Odds are pretty decent that one of those Sarnia picks will be inside the 25th pick. The relative difference between pick 18 and 25 is usually pretty small.

Barrie has a .660 Win%. Using the logic of Brown and Raddysh going for a 2001, would that mean Barrie has no chance at either of those two players unless they trade Suzuki? At what point does trading your 2001 not become reasonable? Would Windsor and Erie simply not even negotiate with Barrie because they know that they can not get Suzuki? Of course not. Each package will be weighed against the other. Windsor and Erie would “prefer” to get a quality 2001 but that doesn’t mean they will get it because there could be a better package that does not include a 2001.

The years of the picks being equal, Erie won't see it that way, I'm very certain of that.

Another way to look at it is that if a team offered a couple of seconds and a third for Fowler, the Hounds would hang up the phone in a second. These high picks are very valuable. Every position counts. A failed first rounder in Liam Hawel got more than that in his second year.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say. I just wanted to point out that you were jumping to some conclusions that weren't really justified just yet.

 

[OMG67]

The years of the picks being equal, Erie won't see it that way, I'm very certain of that.

Another way to look at it is that if a team offered a couple of seconds and a third for Fowler, the Hounds would hang up the phone in a second. These high picks are very valuable. Every position counts. A failed first rounder in Liam Hawel got more than that in his second year.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say. I just wanted to point out that you were jumping to some conclusions that weren't really justified just yet.

I understand what you are saying but I think many on here are jumping to conclusions with respect to 2001’s in deals. Only one 2000 was traded last year at the deadline and not so coincidentally that was the 19th overall pick.

I am not saying Raddysh is not worth a 2001 but I am saying that Raddysh is not worth Rees +++. Not by a long shot. Sarnia will not give up Rees straight up for Raddysh because it makes no sense for that franchise. Same for Brown.

The point I am making is when posters suggest Sarnia NEEDS to offer Rees for Raddysh otherwise they have no shot at him, that is just plain wrong. I can think of a plethora of scenario’s that would preclude that opinion. One of which had both Stephens and Bracco change teams without 2000’s changing teams. Another could be potential destination conflict with respect to the 2001 not waiving for certain teams or waiving at all for that matter. Another could be injury concerns with respect to Brown. The 19 year old may also request a specific couple of teams and out of respect the organization trading the player agrees to fulfill the request and those teams cannot or will not give their 2001.

So, it is entirely possible that NO team offers Erie a 2001 for various reasons. Does that mean Erie walks away from a trade? Nope. They will still look for best situation and decide if THAT situation is a legitimate offer. One of those offers could very well be a Sarnia pick heavy deal.

Who knows what will actually happen? I don’t think Erie management really knows yet. That said, I do agree the initial ask NEEDS to be the 2001 for sure. Whether they get it or not is the question.

 

[Fischhaber]

I agree that Raddysh may not land a 2001. In the case of the Greyhounds, Fowler may be their most convenient player to deal and that will be tough to compete with. I hope that they don't make that kind of deal, but it's a possibility with an extremely strong rookie class on the team.

 

[Fischhaber]

I agree that Raddysh may not land a 2001. In the case of the Greyhounds, Fowler may be their most convenient player to deal and that will be tough to compete with. I hope that they don't make that kind of deal, but it's a possibility with an extremely strong rookie class on the team.

 

[ScoresFromCentre]

Getting a first round pick from the top scouting staff in the league has to be appealing, much more so than a second round pick.

Interesting statement. Do teams actually think like this? As in, have their scouts evaluate a player, then give their evaluation an "SSM bump" because the Greyhounds have had some success developing players as of late? This seems like poor practice to me, but we've also seen the way some teams trade with London. (Who, incidentally, might challenge your casual "top scouting staff in the league" assertion, for whatever it's worth.)

I understand what you are saying but I think many on here are jumping to conclusions with respect to 2001’s in deals. Only one 2000 was traded last year at the deadline and not so coincidentally that was the 19th overall pick.

I am not saying Raddysh is not worth a 2001 but I am saying that Raddysh is not worth Rees +++. Not by a long shot. Sarnia will not give up Rees straight up for Raddysh because it makes no sense for that franchise. Same for Brown.

The point I am making is when posters suggest Sarnia NEEDS to offer Rees for Raddysh otherwise they have no shot at him, that is just plain wrong. I can think of a plethora of scenario’s that would preclude that opinion. One of which had both Stephens and Bracco change teams without 2000’s changing teams. Another could be potential destination conflict with respect to the 2001 not waiving for certain teams or waiving at all for that matter. Another could be injury concerns with respect to Brown. The 19 year old may also request a specific couple of teams and out of respect the organization trading the player agrees to fulfill the request and those teams cannot or will not give their 2001.

So, it is entirely possible that NO team offers Erie a 2001 for various reasons. Does that mean Erie walks away from a trade? Nope. They will still look for best situation and decide if THAT situation is a legitimate offer. One of those offers could very well be a Sarnia pick heavy deal.

Who knows what will actually happen? I don’t think Erie management really knows yet. That said, I do agree the initial ask NEEDS to be the 2001 for sure. Whether they get it or not is the question.

Sarnia traded Ryan Kujawinski straight up for Ryan Spooner! Different situation, I know, but notable nevertheless.

 

[BoxerMax]

The only player on Erie that I could see the Sting target is Sambrook. The Sting do not need to give up what they would need to give up for a top forward. Offensively they are fine. D is the only think they need to take this team over the top.

 

[bobber]

I think the proof has to be in the pudding when discussing the " top scouting staff in the league". There has to be pennants and Championship banners hanging in the rafters in recent times to claim that title. It's like a boxing manager saying his boxer is the best in his class and he hasn't won a title yet. I agree the Soo does have a great system in place and scouts out players that fit the mold. I love the way they play the game. Still have to win a championship or two before deciding on a parade route.

 

[dirty12]

The only player on Erie that I could see the Sting target is Sambrook. The Sting do not need to give up what they would need to give up for a top forward. Offensively they are fine. D is the only think they need to take this team over the top.

A top six forward to move 16 yr old small-ish Rees to 3rd line before fatigue sets in during a long playoff drive would be a good idea, imo.

 

[Fischhaber]

Interesting statement. Do teams actually think like this? As in, have their scouts evaluate a player, then give their evaluation an "SSM bump" because the Greyhounds have had some success developing players as of late? This seems like poor practice to me, but we've also seen the way some teams trade with London. (Who, incidentally, might challenge your casual "top scouting staff in the league" assertion, for whatever it's worth.)



Sarnia traded Ryan Kujawinski straight up for Ryan Spooner! Different situation, I know, but notable nevertheless.

I think your second paragraph says it all. Teams will pay up for players from a team with a history of great drafting. I feel that the Hounds do well without having the 'resources' that a team like London uses to attract NCAA players, but I don't want that statement to get in the way of my point, so let's just say a very good scouting staff.

 

[dirty12]

Yeah, just say that; very good is more palatable than the top scouting staff.