Trade Proposals and Free Agency Thread - 2017 Edition Pt. IV

[ToneDog]

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, perhaps management has a better feel than I do which is fair.
There is nothing I can do except support the team to gather that playoff experience as you state.
My long range thinking is this. If you want to be a team that maintains years of success, you have to fill the organization with a whole bunch of players like Brown, Point, Pageau, more Dermott, some power forwards, etc. You must keep the cycle strong.
Then when the NHL team has shown a few years of playoffs in a row, perhaps getting to the 2nd/3rd round you can have the "own rental" mentality.
I understand your message of not trading the players to make the playoffs.
What is the message if you let them walk and take 1 step back next year? Compare the 2 lineups. From now and above.

I understand your position and I agree that we still need to fill the organization with the examples you gave. I might be a seller at the TDL if they continue to slide and are fighting for a WC spot instead of remaining in 2nd place at the TDL. They will definitely be buyers if they are 2nd near the TDL. Finish second and you have home ice in round 1. Gotta think they would be favorites if healthy.

 

[Walshy7]

The only thing with guys like Leivo, Kapanen and Carrick is that they can not do what Martin, Komarov and Polak do respectively, and our team needs that right now. Kapanen to Komarov is probably the only one that is justifiable, since we can probably live without what Komarov provides in exchange for what Kapanen provides, but without Polak, our PK would be a mess, and without Martin we would pretty much have no physical presence in our lineup at all.

I guess polak is good on the PK, although it seems to do ok while he serves his 2 penalties per game as well, maybe its not him and we have a good PK system

 

[Trapper]

I understand your position and I agree that we still need to fill the organization with the examples you gave. I might be a seller at the TDL if they continue to slide and are fighting for a WC spot instead of remaining in 2nd place at the TDL. They will definitely be buyers if they are 2nd near the TDL. Finish second and you have home ice in round 1. Gotta think they would be favorites if healthy.

I think at the very least you work on re-signing JVR. If you can structure a deal that fits financially and still allows him to be moveable in 3/4 years then I'm good with that course of action. At present I don't think Nylander/Marner are getting paid quite what people think. That way if you have a trade out for JVR (or in 2 years Marleau is off the books), that sends a greater message to me. Keeping the piece to make the playoffs now but keeping the piece for later to ensure we keep improving. This years Bozak though (IMO) can and should be moved. I don't believe he will impact making or missing the playoffs. Especially since we can move Marleau or Nylander to center. And if you do lose JVR, you got something for Bozak to compensate. At least a little. Even a 2nd round pick would give us 3 in the 18 draft. You might be able to package that for a little something. I also don't think moving Bozak to put Nylander at center sends a bad message at all.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't agree with the thinking that we shouldn't trade JVR because that will "send a negative message". We have been playing poorly for a long time now - that's the negative message and trading JVR would be IMO a natural response to that message.

Last year it was said that we traded for Boyle because the team deserved to be rewarded but so far this season, they're not playing like they deserve to be rewarded, quite the opposite in fact. Perhaps a JVR trade would shake things up and we'll see some improvement, there's a lot of talent on this team, hard to imagine we could play much worse than we have been with or without JVR.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I understand your position and I agree that we still need to fill the organization with the examples you gave. I might be a seller at the TDL if they continue to slide and are fighting for a WC spot instead of remaining in 2nd place at the TDL. They will definitely be buyers if they are 2nd near the TDL. Finish second and you have home ice in round 1. Gotta think they would be favorites if healthy.

Home advantage because of 2nd place in our weak division is nothing to be proud of IMO, certainly no reason to sacrifice any future to win now. Out of all the 2nd place teams we have the worst record, we're neck and neck with Boston and they're trending up while we're trending down. There's still a long way to go but I see no reason at this point to think that we'd be significant favourites against them in the playoffs regardless of who has home advantage. I do think there's reason to think that if we are lucky enough to win one PO round (and even making the playoffs isn't a sure thing at this point), we'd be substantial underdogs in the 2nd round. Bottom line is that this team is unlikely to go far in the playoffs. We should be realistic, forget about making a "cup run" this season and focus instead on asset management with an eye on becoming a contender in the not too distant future.

 

[Trapper]

I don't agree with the thinking that we shouldn't trade JVR because that will "send a negative message". We have been playing poorly for a long time now - that's the negative message and trading JVR would be IMO a natural response to that message.

Last year it was said that we traded for Boyle because the team deserved to be rewarded but so far this season, they're not playing like they deserve to be rewarded, quite the opposite in fact. Perhaps a JVR trade would shake things up and we'll see some improvement, there's a lot of talent on this team, hard to imagine we could play much worse than we have been with or without JVR.

I do agree with Tonedog to the point of it depends on the return for JVR concerning that message. Again as I've stated above, if you retain JVR with the intention to re-sign him, there is still no reason you can't move Bozak/Komarov and remain a team that can make the playoffs. Remove those players from the lineup and:
Hyman...Matthews...Marner
Marleau...Kadri...Brown
JVR...Nylander...Kapanen
Martin...Moore...Sosh/Leivo
Bold denotes PK.
Have we taken a drastic downward turn with these moves?

So then I agree with your point as to where we are today and where we'd like to be in the future. For that reason, I'd even accept a meeting in the middle. Obviously JVR has the greatest value. If you are keeping the "own rental" pick one, not 3.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The Polak signing and the Marincin call-up shows how thin the Leafs are at D (for guys ready to step in). They don't have much in the way of C depth either. But yet they may be willing to let 3 or 4 guys walk? And I know the argument will be "picks won't help us now". But those picks can be used to obtain the help needed, perhaps in a package.

 

[darrylsittler27]

I don't agree about best we can get is a late first for Jvr .
Other teams must make the playoffs and will look at it for a mid first.They will have to since I doubt we accept the offer.This draft looks about 15 to 20 players deep. Last late first got us Andersen. That would be 2 firsts in that range in a strong draft. I think many don't want zero for those 3 and an early exit,which could happen this year. We don't look as hungry this year, except G. Andersen etc.

 

[Trapper]

The Polak signing and the Marincin call-up shows how thin the Leafs are at D (for guys ready to step in). They don't have much in the way of C depth either. But yet they may be willing to let 3 or 4 guys walk? And I know the argument will be "picks won't help us now". But those picks can be used to obtain the help needed, perhaps in a package.

I was very high on Conor Timmons (going to the Canadian WJC) who went for a 2nd round pick. A RHD version of Dermott IMO. I would have loved to use a 2nd round pick acquired for a Bozak/Komarov to draft this kid. These are assets for the future and organizational needs.

 

[htpwn]

Not gonna lie had you told me a month ago Martin wasn't needed I would have agreed completely. However all this injury trouble with Matthews, and yes I know this one was from his own teammate but teams will start taking liberties, makes me think maybe we do still need him for a little while longer to at the very least reduce that. Ideally we get a skilled and intimidating top 4 defender but there aren't many of those so we will have to hope players like grundstrom, Borgman and maybe dermott can grow to the point where we don't need an enforcer type. I'm starting to fear that for at least this season we still do.

How many times did Tkachuk run over Andersen last game against Calgary? He even speared Martin of all people from the bench. He never had to answer once.

This notion that the rats won't be rats if a guy like Martin is around is bunk. When was the last time you saw someone like Brad Marchand or Matthew Tkachuk drawn into a fight? And if they do happen to do so, it's never against guys like Martin. They pick their spots... like when Alex Burrows fought Rielly.

And the problem is not Matt Martin himself: By any metric, he's a serviceable 4th line player. The problem is (A) we're massively overpaying him in that role, and (B) we have Leivo and Kapanen and probably Johnsson who are all better players and can't crack the lineup.

 

[hockeywiz542]

What teams would be interested?

Every team. But Karlsson has a 10-team no-trade list, and it’s likely that the teams he'd approve trades to are big-market contenders, such as the Toronto Maple Leafs, New York Rangers, etc. He’s not going to Arizona or Buffalo.

What would teams have to give up?

The Senators will probably ask for a package that includes a young defenseman, a young center, a first-round pick, a second-round pick and another prospect.

For example, if the Maple Leafs decided Karlsson could put them over the top, the Senators would likely ask for prospect defenseman Timothy Liljegren and center William Nylander, plus draft picks and another prospect.

The Rangers' package would start with defenseman Brady Skjei and prospect center Lias Andersson.

The Rangers would be a likely suspect to pursue Karlsson because they are in win-now mode with goalie Henrik Lundqvist turning 36 in March.

With Rick Nash’s $7.8 million contract coming off the books this offseason, the Rangers would be able to accommodate the signing of Karlsson moving forward.

If the Dallas Stars were in the hunt for Karlsson, the Senators would want prospect defenseman Miro Heiskanen and maybe center Radek Faksa.

​

 

[cookie]

We need to consider how JVR ups his game during the playoffs. Between him and Bozak, JVR is the better player and should be the kind of quality veteran player the younger forwards can look up to. It's just a matter of what kind of deal he'll be signing: how will his body hold up with the punishment he takes in front of the net?

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'm not sure where the JVR ups his game during the playoffs theory came from. He's been in what two playoff rounds here and one with Philly? His ice-time was limited by Babcock last year and he had 3 points

 

[3headeddragon]

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This is why you don't make the trade.

 

[Trapper]

This is why you don't make the trade.

UFA or bust.
Same with Doughty. Same with Tavares. Too high profile to trade for in terms of depleting assets.

 

[The CyNick]

Home advantage because of 2nd place in our weak division is nothing to be proud of IMO, certainly no reason to sacrifice any future to win now. Out of all the 2nd place teams we have the worst record, we're neck and neck with Boston and they're trending up while we're trending down. There's still a long way to go but I see no reason at this point to think that we'd be significant favourites against them in the playoffs regardless of who has home advantage. I do think there's reason to think that if we are lucky enough to win one PO round (and even making the playoffs isn't a sure thing at this point), we'd be substantial underdogs in the 2nd round. Bottom line is that this team is unlikely to go far in the playoffs. We should be realistic, forget about making a "cup run" this season and focus instead on asset management with an eye on becoming a contender in the not too distant future.

What odds did you give on Nashville and Ottawa both being in the conference finals?

If anything the league is more wide open this year than previous years. Are you saying it's impossible to see Tampa ousted in the first round? Is it also impossible to think we could beat them in the 2nd round. Is it more likely that we lose in the 2nd round than win? Maybe. But there's value in progression.

You start firing off consistent goal scorers, and you'll be in no man's land quickly.

 

[Walshy7]

​

I really doubt the leafs or habs would be on his list, he can essentially make it a 12 team list if he leaves them off. No chance in hell Melnyk or Dorian can face sending Karlsson to the leafs or habs and have to play him 6~times a year it would be a PR disaster for a franchise that is just atrocious with PR especially right now

 

[The CyNick]

This is why you don't make the trade.

I personally wouldn't trade that type of package for him, even though I think it's very reasonable. Even just trading any future first round picks scares me. Look at Edmonton. They were a very common pick to come out of the West, now they might end up being a bottom five team. Montreal has gone from juggernaut to garbage very quickly. It's a tightly packed league, the ups and downs can happen suddenly.

If EK is available at some point for free as a FA, take a look then. His contact right now doesn't look great based on how he's playing. He clearly needs a anchor partner to let him be effective. A player like that isn't worth top dollar to me.

 

[The CyNick]

How many times did Tkachuk run over Andersen last game against Calgary? He even speared Martin of all people from the bench. He never had to answer once.

This notion that the rats won't be rats if a guy like Martin is around is bunk. When was the last time you saw someone like Brad Marchand or Matthew Tkachuk drawn into a fight? And if they do happen to do so, it's never against guys like Martin. They pick their spots... like when Alex Burrows fought Rielly.

And the problem is not Matt Martin himself: By any metric, he's a serviceable 4th line player. The problem is (A) we're massively overpaying him in that role, and (B) we have Leivo and Kapanen and probably Johnsson who are all better players and can't crack the lineup.

Leivo has had loads of chances this year and rarely has stood out.

 

[Gary Nylund]

My responses in red:

What odds did you give on Nashville and Ottawa both being in the conference finals?

What makes you think I made any predictions at all about these teams (i'm really only concerned with the Maple Leafs myself)? What would you say are the chances of the Maple Leafs with the current roster reaching the conference finals?

If anything the league is more wide open this year than previous years. Are you saying it's impossible to see Tampa ousted in the first round?

LOL what makes you think I said anything like that? I would only add that "anything's possible" is hardly a basis for deciding how to manage a hockey team.

Is it also impossible to think we could beat them in the 2nd round.

What an odd question - it's possible to think whatever you like. If we did play TB in the 2nd round though, we'd likely be substantial underdogs.

Is it more likely that we lose in the 2nd round than win?

Well we'd have to get to the 2nd round first now wouldn't we. As of today, it seems like we're at best even money to get that far and assuming we did get that far, we sould likely be substantial underdogs.

Maybe. But there's value in progression.

There's value in many different things. As one example, there's value in trading our pending UFA's instead of losing them for nothing.

You start firing off consistent goal scorers, and you'll be in no man's land quickly.

Not sure what you mean by "fire off". If you mean losing them for nothing the yes, it seems pretty obvious that losing good players without getting anything in return is the way to no mans land.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I personally wouldn't trade that type of package for him, even though I think it's very reasonable. Even just trading any future first round picks scares me. Look at Edmonton. They were a very common pick to come out of the West, now they might end up being a bottom five team. Montreal has gone from juggernaut to garbage very quickly. It's a tightly packed league, the ups and downs can happen suddenly.

If EK is available at some point for free as a FA, take a look then. His contact right now doesn't look great based on how he's playing. He clearly needs a anchor partner to let him be effective. A player like that isn't worth top dollar to me.

LOL. When was Montreal a juggernaut in your opinion?

Of course ups and downs happen but if you look at the top teams in the NHL, most of them have been good for quite some time now.

 

[rumman]

if they're extending JVR (which I wouldn't do), it better be before the deadline. The last thing the Leafs need is to overpay JVR so no one loses face when he walks for nothing, seen that too many times before.

 

[3headeddragon]

UFA or bust.
Same with Doughty. Same with Tavares. Too high profile to trade for in terms of depleting assets.

We aren't deep enough to spend this recklessly on a player.

I personally wouldn't trade that type of package for him, even though I think it's very reasonable. Even just trading any future first round picks scares me. Look at Edmonton. They were a very common pick to come out of the West, now they might end up being a bottom five team. Montreal has gone from juggernaut to garbage very quickly. It's a tightly packed league, the ups and downs can happen suddenly.

If EK is available at some point for free as a FA, take a look then. His contact right now doesn't look great based on how he's playing. He clearly needs a anchor partner to let him be effective. A player like that isn't worth top dollar to me.

The only one I throw big money at is Doughty. If that fails, highly likely, I try to sign another Hainsey type player. No use blowing the bank on players that don't fill a need.

 

[pspot]

they tried to through big money at stamkos so at that point they thought it was the right move
what's changed since then?

 

[3headeddragon]

they tried to through big money at stamkos so at that point they thought it was the right move
what's changed since then?

Stamkos was considered a need at the time.

Toronto needs a steadying defenseman for the defensive zone not a strictly offensive defenseman. The fact Doughty brings both is why he will cost so much.

I believe Toronto will throw big money at him, I don't believe he signs with them.

Read your comment two different ways so I tried to answer both.