Trade Proposals and Free Agency Thread - 2017 Edition Pt. IV

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WestCoastLeafs

I beleaf
Jun 10, 2013
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Yep. It's literally just them being real gud vets that he has this moral code that you can't demote vets.

Yeah, Babfiction loves his real gud vets.

In fact, Babfiction loves his real gud vets so much that it's amazing to think that he's a caricature of a coach that demoted a bunch of veterans to the minors last season to ice a team full of rookies, and whose only usage of gud vets this year that could be questioned at all are the playing of a vet on third pair D for less than half the games so far, and putting another one on the shutdown line instead of the fourth line.
 

Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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Yeah, Babfiction loves his real gud vets.

In fact, Babfiction loves his real gud vets so much that it's amazing to think that he's a caricature of a coach that demoted a bunch of veterans to the minors last season to ice a team full of rookies, and whose only usage of gud vets this year that could be questioned at all are the playing of a vet on third pair D for less than half the games so far, and putting another one on the shutdown line instead of the fourth line.
Very true. I'd add ice time distribution though, and the Komarov usage is very questionable by itself.
 

realgoodleafs

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Oct 29, 2006
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Hanifin is a level or two below Nylander. A lot easier to draft a dman in the late first/2nd than a top notch centre btw.

Nylander's potential to be a top notch center is about the same as Hannifin's potential to be a top notch defender.

Anyways I don't think this management group will make any bold moves. They'll stick with drafted players and try to keep adding free agents from European leagues.
 

MR4

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Oct 20, 2014
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Nylander's potential to be a top notch center is about the same as Hannifin's potential to be a top notch defender.

Anyways I don't think this management group will make any bold moves. They'll stick with drafted players and try to keep adding free agents from European leagues.
Wrong. But even if it was, we already have a offense LD for the top pair, so a top centre is more worth it for this team.
 

MR4

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Oct 20, 2014
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Yeah, Babfiction loves his real gud vets.

In fact, Babfiction loves his real gud vets so much that it's amazing to think that he's a caricature of a coach that demoted a bunch of veterans to the minors last season to ice a team full of rookies, and whose only usage of gud vets this year that could be questioned at all are the playing of a vet on third pair D for less than half the games so far, and putting another one on the shutdown line instead of the fourth line.
Think you're really simplifying it. As Nith said, ice time distribution is big, and I'd argue that if Babcock was truly giving minutes based only on merit, none of Martin/Komarov/Polak would be playing, while Leivo/Kapanen/Carrick would be in, and Nylander wouldn't be yo-yo'd in the line up and would be a mainstay in the top 9.
 

SeaOfBlue

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Aug 1, 2013
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Think you're really simplifying it. As Nith said, ice time distribution is big, and I'd argue that if Babcock was truly giving minutes based only on merit, none of Martin/Komarov/Polak would be playing, while Leivo/Kapanen/Carrick would be in, and Nylander wouldn't be yo-yo'd in the line up and would be a mainstay in the top 9.

The only thing with guys like Leivo, Kapanen and Carrick is that they can not do what Martin, Komarov and Polak do respectively, and our team needs that right now. Kapanen to Komarov is probably the only one that is justifiable, since we can probably live without what Komarov provides in exchange for what Kapanen provides, but without Polak, our PK would be a mess, and without Martin we would pretty much have no physical presence in our lineup at all.
 

realgoodleafs

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Wrong. But even if it was, we already have a offense LD for the top pair, so a top centre is more worth it for this team.

You're comparing what you hope Nylander will be to what Hannifin actually is right now as a 20 year old. Right now Nylander is projected to have a 50 point season as a winger at age 21. One is playing a much harder position at a younger age.
 

MJ65

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Jul 12, 2009
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We can sit and talk as much as you want to but nothing is going to happen until trade deadline and I am not seeing any thing major
 
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hockeynorth

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You're comparing what you hope Nylander will be to what Hannifin actually is right now as a 20 year old. Right now Nylander is projected to have a 50 point season as a winger at age 21. One is playing a much harder position at a younger age.

I'm wondering why no one can seem to remember that 50 points for a 21 year old is very good. There are MANY good wingers and centres who didn't hit or put up barely more than 50 points at either 21 or their second season in the NHL. Some weren't even in the league!
 
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darrylsittler27

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Ah the belief that they can follow Lemieux in a straight up trajectory akin to Mcdavid and Mathews. Oh how they have gotten spoiled because of one year. I think Boeser's year upset them.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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Nylander's potential to be a top notch center is about the same as Hannifin's potential to be a top notch defender.

Anyways I don't think this management group will make any bold moves. They'll stick with drafted players and try to keep adding free agents from European leagues.

Though Nylander has shown he’s closer to reaching that goal than Hanifin.
 

WestCoastLeafs

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Jun 10, 2013
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Very true. I'd add ice time distribution though, and the Komarov usage is very questionable by itself.

Do you mean Komarov shouldn't be in the line-up at all? I think he is still a good choice for the 4th line - he still PKs, and as long as there's some speed elsewhere on the line I think he would be good.

In Nylander and Marner's case, their ice time has been down some games, but there are other games they start on the fourth line and end up playing 17 minutes. There's some tough love there, but it's because they are worth the effort to develop right. I do agree that the tough love phase has gone on long enough, and now it's time to just throw them back into primary roles and let them work themselves out of a funk. But it's not like Babcock hasn't been mixing up lines lately trying to give them opportunities, and Matthews being out complicates things as well. (Personally, I am confident Nylander will be back with Matthews when he's healthy, but I've been wrong before.)

Think you're really simplifying it. As Nith said, ice time distribution is big, and I'd argue that if Babcock was truly giving minutes based only on merit, none of Martin/Komarov/Polak would be playing, while Leivo/Kapanen/Carrick would be in, and Nylander wouldn't be yo-yo'd in the line up and would be a mainstay in the top 9.

I don't disagree with your line-up suggestions. I don't know why Martin is in the lineup every night (I admit I forgot about him.) I was amazed that Kapanen hadn't earned himself a spot after last year's playoff performance and his training camp this year. And if Nylander's going to drop to the fourth line, I would at least like to see him get some minutes at centre - I mean Moore probably is better at d-zone coverage for now, but Nylander can work on that given the chance, and already does lots of other things better making him the better overall choice at centre.

But we're talking about this year's delta for a team that already has inserted tons of youth into the lineup. The version of Babcock that has been invented by this board is practically a skill-hating, vet-loving Don Cherry, which is ridiculous.

To touch your points directly:

Martin - I forgot about him in my earlier post. I don't quite understand what he accomplishes, although there's been a couple of games lately where he's started to look like an actual NHL hockey player.

Komarov - Pretty invisible most of the time, probably the one vet I would agree is still in his role based on reputation.

Polak - he has actually stayed in the lineup entirely on merit. T his guy didn't get any free pass this year - pretty clearly wasn't even really in management's plans. He might have got his training camp 10-day contract as a reward for being a good soldier, but that sure didn't get him into the lineup. He eventually got signed as a 7th D, and got into the lineup because Carrick was struggling. The number one thing people criticized him for was his icing and hand-grenading the puck. At the risk of looking stupid if he has a terrible game, count how many times the Leafs ice it in a game, and how often it's Polak icing it. He also defers to Borgman pretty often and lets him move it. In his very limited role as a sheltered third-pair dman/PK specialist, Polak is actually doing a good job. so if you want to talk about being in the lineup based on merit, I would argue that he actually does deserve to be in the lineup on merit. (And just to clarify: I'm about as Gardiner on the Gardiner-Polak spectrum as you'll find someone.)

Nylander's usage - Nylander (and Marner) have been given some tough love this year. Are there times when Bozak and JVR are more worthy of being demoted to the fourth line? For sure. But where does that leave us? With Nylander on the sheltered scoring line. Is that our long term plan for Nylander? To make him the sheltered scorer? I firmly believe the long-term plan for this team is to have nine (if not twelve) all-situation forwards that will eliminate the need to hard-line match. That means in the short term, Nylander plays nine minutes against Edmonton because the message being sent is that if he wants to play in specific situation, then he has to prove to the coach that he is the best player to play in that situation, not because he's Nylander.
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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We can sit and talk as much as you want to but nothing is going to until trade deadline and I am not seeing any thing major
We don't have the tradeable assets to get what people are looking for.
We have the UFAs that don't look like any are getting moved,
We have the players that nobody wants moved,
And we have the rest that won't get what people are looking for.
All in all, unless we pick up another Boyle, I'd say this is it. What you see is what you get.
 

MJ65

Registered User
Jul 12, 2009
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We don't have the tradeable assets to get what people are looking for.
We have the UFAs that don't look like any are getting moved,
We have the players that nobody wants moved,
And we have the rest that won't get what people are looking for.
All in all, unless we pick up another Boyle, I'd say this is it. What you see is what you get.

Exactly - not sure what every one else is thinking
 

Kiwi

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Mar 5, 2016
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The only thing with guys like Leivo, Kapanen and Carrick is that they can not do what Martin, Komarov and Polak do respectively, and our team needs that right now. Kapanen to Komarov is probably the only one that is justifiable, since we can probably live without what Komarov provides in exchange for what Kapanen provides, but without Polak, our PK would be a mess, and without Martin we would pretty much have no physical presence in our lineup at all.

If Polak is on the team to help the PK he needs to stop getting himself put in the penalty box so much

12 PIM in 15 games is to many for a sheltered bottom pair D

I also don't think Martin needs to play every day either, he's useful no doubt but sometimes it wouldn't hurt to sit him
 

hockeynorth

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Aug 31, 2017
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If Polak is on the team to help the PK he needs to stop getting himself put in the penalty box so much

12 PIM in 15 games is to many for a sheltered bottom pair D

I also don't think Martin needs to play every day either, he's useful no doubt but sometimes it wouldn't hurt to sit him

Not gonna lie had you told me a month ago Martin wasn't needed I would have agreed completely. However all this injury trouble with Matthews, and yes I know this one was from his own teammate but teams will start taking liberties, makes me think maybe we do still need him for a little while longer to at the very least reduce that. Ideally we get a skilled and intimidating top 4 defender but there aren't many of those so we will have to hope players like grundstrom, Borgman and maybe dermott can grow to the point where we don't need an enforcer type. I'm starting to fear that for at least this season we still do.
 

Martin Skoula

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Oct 18, 2017
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Exactly - not sure what every one else is thinking

JVR for Braun is the only framework for a deal I could see making sense. If not directly, then through a middle-man who liquidates JVR into picks/futures that are moved for a defensive #4 RHD.

Alternatively JVR for cloning/endurance technology so we can either have two Hainseys or double-shift him.

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Hainsey
Borgman-Zaitsev

Should be good enough for now.
 

hullsy47

Registered User
Dec 7, 2005
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Very true. I'd add ice time distribution though, and the Komarov usage is very questionable by itself.
marner don't deserve more than willie ...willie could man the point on a power play too ....marner isn't playing well ....in babs own words ..yet he plays a lot ....
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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What playoff team trades it's top goal scorer ? If Nylander and Marner continue at their current pace we cannot afford to trade JVR.
 
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rumman

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Sep 10, 2008
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Babcock might be a coaching genius, but he makes some unusual choices, having said that I hope Lou and company do not accommodate him by keeping JVR/Bozak around after the deadline. This team has zero chance of winning the cup, and might have trouble making the playoffs. The prudent thing to do is trade assets that won't be here next year, give the young guys a chance, and continue to rebuild. No team, least of all the Leafs can afford to lose assets such as JVR/Bozak/and Leo for nothing. I'll be extremely pissed if this happens, I've seen this movie a hundred times already.
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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What playoff team trades it's top goal scorer ? If Nylander and Marner continue at their current pace we cannot afford to trade JVR.
I think most of us are saying trade him if you don't plan to keep him beyond today. Not because I'd just love to see him traded. Different story if you plan to re-sign him. Ok, we make the playoffs and maybe go far. What if we get bounced in the 1st round? We somehow have to evolve next year with whatever we have. So UFAs walk.
How do we follow up our going for it with own rentals next year.
Are we stronger with:
Hyman...Matthews...Nylander
Marleau...Kadri...Brown
Leivo...Aaltonen...Marner
Martin...Gauthier...Kapanen

Would it be nice if we could get a 1st (and draft a really good center) or get a young power forward with potential. Things we don't have in the organization. Is one playoff year worth the next 7-8 years?
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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I think most of us are saying trade him if you don't plan to keep him beyond today. Not because I'd just love to see him traded. Different story if you plan to re-sign him. Ok, we make the playoffs and maybe go far. What if we get bounced in the 1st round? We somehow have to evolve next year with whatever we have. So UFAs walk.
How do we follow up our going for it with own rentals next year.
Are we stronger with:
Hyman...Matthews...Nylander
Marleau...Kadri...Brown
Leivo...Aaltonen...Marner
Martin...Gauthier...Kapanen

Would it be nice if we could get a 1st (and draft a really good center) or get a young power forward with potential. Things we don't have in the organization. Is one playoff year worth the next 7-8 years?

I agree with your plan if we are pessimistic and feel they won't do well in the playoffs and/or we do not value playoff experience. Unfortunately for fans who think this way, Leafs management and ownership do not think the same way. The most you will get for JVR is a late 1st round pick, which have hardly ever panned out for us. Is that worth sending a message to the team that you don't think they have what it takes to make a run ? Once you make the playoffs, anything can happen if your goalie gets hot. I would rather Lou shore up the D and hang onto our UFAs than trade JVR for a pick or two. With the money we save by letting our UFAs walk, we can sign a player to replace JVR.

Having said that, I would trade TyBo for a rental veteran dman or a rugged centre if I could cause I don't see any urgency in his game and he is as soft as it comes.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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Babcock might be a coaching genius, but he makes some unusual choices, having said that I hope Lou and company do not accommodate him by keeping JVR/Bozak around after the deadline. This team has zero chance of winning the cup, and might have trouble making the playoffs. The prudent thing to do is trade assets that won't be here next year, give the young guys a chance, and continue to rebuild. No team, least of all the Leafs can afford to lose assets such as JVR/Bozak/and Leo for nothing. I'll be extremely pissed if this happens, I've seen this movie a hundred times already.

Too late to tank for Dahlin :) I think it is to early to write this team off. I'd bet a nice winning streak would change the minds of many pessimistic Leaf fans. Don't get me wrong I don't like what I am seeing and I am usually a glass half full guy but I have confidence that this team is not as bad as it has looked and that Lou will make a move before the TDL.
 

Trapper

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I agree with your plan if we are pessimistic and feel they won't do well in the playoffs and/or we do not value playoff experience. Unfortunately for fans who think this way, Leafs management and ownership do not think the same way. The most you will get for JVR is a late 1st round pick, which have hardly ever panned out for us. Is that worth sending a message to the team that you don't think they have what it takes to make a run ? Once you make the playoffs, anything can happen if your goalie gets hot. I would rather Lou shore up the D and hang onto our UFAs than trade JVR for a pick or two. With the money we save by letting our UFAs walk, we can sign a player to replace JVR.

Having said that, I would trade TyBo for a rental veteran dman or a rugged centre if I could cause I don't see any urgency in his game and he is as soft as it comes.
I'm not trying to be pessimistic, perhaps management has a better feel than I do which is fair.
There is nothing I can do except support the team to gather that playoff experience as you state.
My long range thinking is this. If you want to be a team that maintains years of success, you have to fill the organization with a whole bunch of players like Brown, Point, Pageau, more Dermott, some power forwards, etc. You must keep the cycle strong.
Then when the NHL team has shown a few years of playoffs in a row, perhaps getting to the 2nd/3rd round you can have the "own rental" mentality.
I understand your message of not trading the players to make the playoffs.
What is the message if you let them walk and take 1 step back next year? Compare the 2 lineups. From now and above.
 

one77

Registered User
Dec 22, 2013
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Just wait until Bozak, JVR, and Komarov contracts are up. That's when you look at Doughty or Tavares, who would both be great fits here.

All I want in the meantime... is for Gardiner to be traded. And I know that is not happening unless we are somehow getting a replacement for him in a trade, or until one of our prospects are ready (Liljegren/Dermott).
 
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