The Official Tank Thread II

[Pavels Dog]

I hope you guys are ready for the "We climbed our way out of last place, so we don't really need to rebuild" line. It's coming.

I don't understand the thinking that a rebuild is optional at all. It's happening, it's been happening for years. Only question is how bad we will be through it, or rather how bad we need to be. Will the rebuild be quicker if we are in the bottom 5 at least once or twice? Probably. But it's not like we can force our way out of the bottom 5 unless we find some very good players very soon. If none of our young players improve, what will this team be when Zetterberg is finally done? When Green leaves? When we trade Howard or lose him in expansion?
A bottom 5 team is what. Bottom 3 maybe. We're not going to be able to sign anyone in FA that drags this team into the playoffs. Trades are possible but again, if our young players suck how can we trade them for pieces that make us competitive?

 

[Frk It]

I don't understand the thinking that a rebuild is optional at all. It's happening, it's been happening for years. Only question is how bad we will be through it, or rather how bad we need to be. Will the rebuild be quicker if we are in the bottom 5 at least once or twice? Probably. But it's not like we can force our way out of the bottom 5 unless we find some very good players very soon. If none of our young players improve, what will this team be when Zetterberg is finally done? When Green leaves? When we trade Howard or lose him in expansion?
A bottom 5 team is what. Bottom 3 maybe. We're not going to be able to sign anyone in FA that drags this team into the playoffs. Trades are possible but again, if our young players suck how can we trade them for pieces that make us competitive?

How can you possibly consider a team that has been a buyer at 2 of the 3 (2014 and 2015) previous deadlines going into this season a team that has been "re-building for years". Prior to this season, our moves have not reflected that of a re-building team. I consider this year 1 of a legitimate re-build, assuming we don't do a bunch of dumb stuff this summer.

 

[Winger98]

How can you possibly consider a team that has been a buyer at 2 of the 3 (2014 and 2015) previous deadlines going into this season a team that has been "re-building for years". Prior to this season, our moves have not reflected that of a re-building team. I consider this year 1 of a legitimate re-build, assuming we don't do a bunch of dumb stuff this summer.

We're going to at least try to do plenty of dumb stuff this summer, is my guess. Right now, we're already out of the bottom5 of the league, sitting as the sixth worst team. Winnipeg and Buffalo are catchable with just our games in hand, and it's not entirely inconceivable to move a couple of spots past that if the Wings keep playing well and/or teams above them start cratering over the last ten games.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Holland looks to re-work the blueline over the summer, and that re-working will include going after Wideman and Seidenberg.

 

[Flowah]

I don't understand the thinking that a rebuild is optional at all. It's happening, it's been happening for years. Only question is how bad we will be through it, or rather how bad we need to be. Will the rebuild be quicker if we are in the bottom 5 at least once or twice? Probably. But it's not like we can force our way out of the bottom 5 unless we find some very good players very soon. If none of our young players improve, what will this team be when Zetterberg is finally done? When Green leaves? When we trade Howard or lose him in expansion?
A bottom 5 team is what. Bottom 3 maybe. We're not going to be able to sign anyone in FA that drags this team into the playoffs. Trades are possible but again, if our young players suck how can we trade them for pieces that make us competitive?

And I don't understand why people say that you're automatically rebuilding if you're a bottom 5 team.

You're not. You can still make dumb decisions that are the opposite of what you should be doing in a rebuild. Imagine if Holland went out and traded picks and prospects at the deadline for veterans to make a push for the playoffs. That would not be a rebuilding team.

You can be a bottom feeder and still not be in rebuilding mode.

 

[jkutswings]

We're going to at least try to do plenty of dumb stuff this summer, is my guess. Right now, we're already out of the bottom5 of the league, sitting as the sixth worst team. Winnipeg and Buffalo are catchable with just our games in hand, and it's not entirely inconceivable to move a couple of spots past that if the Wings keep playing well and/or teams above them start cratering over the last ten games.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Holland looks to re-work the blueline over the summer, and that re-working will include going after Wideman and Seidenberg.

I'm hoping the schedule goes more according to Hoyle to help mitigate that. Buffalo, Carolina, and New Jersey are the only non-playoff-esque teams remaining (there are two games against Tampa, who are still in the hunt, and have had Detroit's number the last few years).

If the Wings go something like 3-8 down the stretch, that should definitely keep them in the bottom 5. Now whether that does anything to change the delusion of returning to the playoffs next year is another matter, but one can hope that the denial ends sooner, rather than later.

 

[Frk It]

We're going to at least try to do plenty of dumb stuff this summer, is my guess. Right now, we're already out of the bottom5 of the league, sitting as the sixth worst team. Winnipeg and Buffalo are catchable with just our games in hand, and it's not entirely inconceivable to move a couple of spots past that if the Wings keep playing well and/or teams above them start cratering over the last ten games.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Holland looks to re-work the blueline over the summer, and that re-working will include going after Wideman and Seidenberg.

Could we even afford both of those guys? We might try and improve, but I'd expect at least as much improvement from teams like Buffalo, Florida, and Toronto. So I don't know in the end that we end up at a much different place next year.

I think TB, TOR, FLA will all be much better teams next year.

 

[wings95]

We're going to at least try to do plenty of dumb stuff this summer, is my guess. Right now, we're already out of the bottom5 of the league, sitting as the sixth worst team. Winnipeg and Buffalo are catchable with just our games in hand, and it's not entirely inconceivable to move a couple of spots past that if the Wings keep playing well and/or teams above them start cratering over the last ten games.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Holland looks to re-work the blueline over the summer, and that re-working will include going after Wideman and Seidenberg.

Yuck on those two D men. I think the Wings need younger and faster players with IQ. A d with size, skating and snarl would be nice or at least the size and skating. Wings need to get faster back there. Green will slow down soon, if he stays the whole season or not. XO is avg to below avg skater, Big Rig, not so fast, Kronner was never really fast to begin with and as age and injuries he is slowing down. DD not really fast or slow, can get up the ice but he has not played all the good this year. Jensen is fast. Sproul is good for a bigger guy. I think if the Wings can get Kronner on Long term injury reserve and than sign or trade for a top 2 d who is a good two way D or offensively inclined they will be ok. Also ideally for me this should be under 28 so the Wings have him around a while. Up front some more size and snarl. Use Gus or Tatr, prefer Gus plus a lot of somethings to get your D than sign a fwd who is either big or uses their size and can skate above average or one like a Vanek who can score some goals. Mantha maybe turn into that in the next couple of seasons but one more big fwd does not hurt. AA and Larkin need to keep developing and Tatr needs to be Tatr and Gus, if he stays needs to shoot more. I would like to draft or sign a top six center who is a great playmaker since IMO, the Wings lack that element when Dats retired.

 

[Winger98]

I'm hoping the schedule goes more according to Hoyle to help mitigate that. Buffalo, Carolina, and New Jersey are the only non-playoff-esque teams remaining (there are two games against Tampa, who are still in the hunt, and have had Detroit's number the last few years).

If the Wings go something like 3-8 down the stretch, that should definitely keep them in the bottom 5. Now whether that does anything to change the delusion of returning to the playoffs next year is another matter, but one can hope that the denial ends sooner, rather than later.

If we do, yeah, we should be either in or at least very close to the bottom5. I think the Wings have had a lot of bad luck this year, though, and have also just played worse than they realistically should have been. This is not to say they were or are a cup team, but I still think this is closer to a bubble team than a bottom5 team.

Holland made the right move and dealt guys for picks this year. Hopefully we take advantage of them. I think we're still going to see Holland make moves to make the club as competitive as possible next season, though, rather than going into a full conventional rebuild.

Could we even afford both of those guys? We might try and improve, but I'd expect at least as much improvement from teams like Buffalo, Florida, and Toronto. So I don't know in the end that we end up at a much different place next year.

I think TB, TOR, FLA will all be much better teams next year.

Maybe. It depends what happens with the cap, the expansion draft, and free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those guys slips through cracks of free agency and comes comparably cheap.

While TB, Toronto, and Florida might get better, will Montreal stay as good? Boston? Is Columbus going to repeat? NYR?

I've never thought we were Cup team this year, but I still think we are a bubble quality team that has had a miserable year. Do I want to be a middle of the pack team, praying to get lucky in the middle of the draft? Not really, but I think that's we are going to see next year.

 

[Retire91]

A team that traded for rentals, traded down in the draft, and signed three 30+ players to franchise contracts is rebuilding?

Just because Holland's decline is finally bottoming out does not credit this as a rebuild. This top 5 pick won't be credit to a rebuild its credit to how badly Holland failed to make the playoffs. I think the only reason he didn't rental last season was cap. Need to see more actual rebuild moves before anyone can claim rebuild.

 

[plymouthmi]

As someone who has lurked around here for awhile and would like to post more but am nervous, everyone should keep in mind that some fans (like me) just have different priorities as a fan. All this talk about if you're okay with the last few years, you like mediocrity or losing or you're a Holland worshiper or you're not a smart fan is sometimes off-putting. I love hockey and I love the Red Wings and I want my sports fandom to be fun so I make it fun. I find things to enjoy and be excited about always, whether it's watching young players develop, seeing Zetterberg still going strong this year, admiring specific goals or saves. I don't think that makes me a bad or foolish fan, and I still enjoy discussions about trades & signings and the team's direction. Maybe I would feel differently if they hadn't won 4 cups in my lifetime but I don't think so. I'm a Lions fan too after all.

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

 

[Pavels Dog]

How can you possibly consider a team that has been a buyer at 2 of the 3 (2014 and 2015) previous deadlines going into this season a team that has been "re-building for years". Prior to this season, our moves have not reflected that of a re-building team. I consider this year 1 of a legitimate re-build, assuming we don't do a bunch of dumb stuff this summer.

We did the bare minimum to be considered "buyers". It's almost like saying we're not rebuilding because we waived Pulkkinen but we signed Vanek. These are very minor moves.
And I'm looking more at the big picture. Core players aging/retiring = team is rebuilding, whether they want to or not. If you're operating on the very strict definition of "rebuilding" that means you do a firesale, stock up on draft picks, intentionally suck for several years.. then sure, we haven't been rebuilding until now. But rebuilding can be done in many different ways and most importantly there can be many different phases of a rebuild. Last 5 years were if nothing else at least the early stage of the rebuild, the preparation phase.
Now we're hitting a more intense rebuilding period where we get top picks and require bigger things in order to turn the team around.

There's no "dumb stuff" we can do this summer that pulls us out of a rebuild apart from, I guess, trading our 1st or Larkin/Mantha/Svech/AA for 30+ year olds or something like that.

 

[jkutswings]

As someone who has lurked around here for awhile and would like to post more but am nervous, everyone should keep in mind that some fans (like me) just have different priorities as a fan. All this talk about if you're okay with the last few years, you like mediocrity or losing or you're a Holland worshiper or you're not a smart fan is sometimes off-putting. I love hockey and I love the Red Wings and I want my sports fandom to be fun so I make it fun. I find things to enjoy and be excited about always, whether it's watching young players develop, seeing Zetterberg still going strong this year, admiring specific goals or saves. I don't think that makes me a bad or foolish fan, and I still enjoy discussions about trades & signings and the team's direction. Maybe I would feel differently if they hadn't won 4 cups in my lifetime but I don't think so. I'm a Lions fan too after all.

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

First of all, welcome to the board. Always nice to have new voices in the discussion.

Secondly, you're perfectly entitled to your own desired type of fandom. Several of us (myself included) can get pretty carried away on certain topics, but ultimately, sports are entertainment, and what you consider fun is 100 percent up to you.

As to the bolded above, speaking only for myself, I hope that the players I like watching perform well, but that the team loses in spite of those efforts. But again, your call on what you want out of the home stretch of this season.

 

[Retire91]

As someone who has lurked around here for awhile and would like to post more but am nervous, everyone should keep in mind that some fans (like me) just have different priorities as a fan. All this talk about if you're okay with the last few years, you like mediocrity or losing or you're a Holland worshiper or you're not a smart fan is sometimes off-putting. I love hockey and I love the Red Wings and I want my sports fandom to be fun so I make it fun. I find things to enjoy and be excited about always, whether it's watching young players develop, seeing Zetterberg still going strong this year, admiring specific goals or saves. I don't think that makes me a bad or foolish fan, and I still enjoy discussions about trades & signings and the team's direction. Maybe I would feel differently if they hadn't won 4 cups in my lifetime but I don't think so. I'm a Lions fan too after all.

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

Welcome aboard, yes feel free to chime in. We are all good to each other around here we disagree but I don't have anyone blocked lol. We all bleed red here at the end of the day.

I personally wouldn't categorize the team having been rebuilding. And its my humble yet outspoken opinion that they desperately need to. Also that they should have started long ago. There are valid and factual arguments for where we are though financially and pride wise.

I am not in favor of intentionally sucking for 1st overall picks. That is lame, 100% agree. I am however in favor of not fighting to be a wild card by using a revolving door of the latest round of plug FA veterans and rentals.

 

[Classicnamesup]

A team that traded for rentals, traded down in the draft, and signed three 30+ players to franchise contracts is rebuilding?

Just because Holland's decline is finally bottoming out does not credit this as a rebuild. This top 5 pick won't be credit to a rebuild its credit to how badly Holland failed to make the playoffs. I think the only reason he didn't rental last season was cap. Need to see more actual rebuild moves before anyone can claim rebuild.

This team was dragged kicking and screaming into the first steps of a rebuild. Selling UFAs is not a bold step either. We will see if it continues or if it's already time to sign some 35 year old vets to 4 year contracts to play on the third pairing.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

We did the bare minimum to be considered "buyers". It's almost like saying we're not rebuilding because we waived Pulkkinen but we signed Vanek. These are very minor moves.
And I'm looking more at the big picture. Core players aging/retiring = team is rebuilding, whether they want to or not. If you're operating on the very strict definition of "rebuilding" that means you do a firesale, stock up on draft picks, intentionally suck for several years.. then sure, we haven't been rebuilding until now. But rebuilding can be done in many different ways and most importantly there can be many different phases of a rebuild. Last 5 years were if nothing else at least the early stage of the rebuild, the preparation phase.
Now we're hitting a more intense rebuilding period where we get top picks and require bigger things in order to turn the team around.

There's no "dumb stuff" we can do this summer that pulls us out of a rebuild apart from, I guess, trading our 1st or Larkin/Mantha/Svech/AA for 30+ year olds or something like that.

Apparently re-signing Helm and Glendening is all part of this rebuild master plan youre talking about? Along with the Nielson signing. Green two summers ago?

Maybe its just me, but that doesnt translate to any kind of rebuild. To me, thats trying to preserve a bubble team from becoming less.

 

[Syckle78]

Needed that loss tonight. Hopefully a hot Montreal team smacks them around next.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

As someone who has lurked around here for awhile and would like to post more but am nervous, everyone should keep in mind that some fans (like me) just have different priorities as a fan. All this talk about if you're okay with the last few years, you like mediocrity or losing or you're a Holland worshiper or you're not a smart fan is sometimes off-putting. I love hockey and I love the Red Wings and I want my sports fandom to be fun so I make it fun. I find things to enjoy and be excited about always, whether it's watching young players develop, seeing Zetterberg still going strong this year, admiring specific goals or saves. I don't think that makes me a bad or foolish fan, and I still enjoy discussions about trades & signings and the team's direction. Maybe I would feel differently if they hadn't won 4 cups in my lifetime but I don't think so. I'm a Lions fan too after all.

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

Welcome, please post more.

The thing is, you don't have to root for players to fail. They just will.

They will either fail with their contracts...

Or they will fail in the "system" that the Wings employ.

If the Wings don't go all in on a rebuild, they will just continue to be what they are right now: few good young players with long term contract depth.

 

[Hadoop]

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

Easy. I don't get emotionally invested with the current team or any of the current players (except maybe Z). Also helps that I don't live in the Detroit area (and haven't for over 10 years) so I don't have to witness the carnage first-hand. Of course they will always be my favourite team, but I don't take this year too seriously as it's not like I'll remember anything from this season once it's over anyways.

 

[aar000n]

As someone who has lurked around here for awhile and would like to post more but am nervous, everyone should keep in mind that some fans (like me) just have different priorities as a fan. All this talk about if you're okay with the last few years, you like mediocrity or losing or you're a Holland worshiper or you're not a smart fan is sometimes off-putting. I love hockey and I love the Red Wings and I want my sports fandom to be fun so I make it fun. I find things to enjoy and be excited about always, whether it's watching young players develop, seeing Zetterberg still going strong this year, admiring specific goals or saves. I don't think that makes me a bad or foolish fan, and I still enjoy discussions about trades & signings and the team's direction. Maybe I would feel differently if they hadn't won 4 cups in my lifetime but I don't think so. I'm a Lions fan too after all.

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

This feels like the first season of Rich Rod in Michigan and how he ruined the bowl streak of Michigan. Same with trashill truth an NHL coach and this team is in the post season. But now the streak is over every season is cup or bust. Holland thinks the pressure will go down but it will actually go up. After this season Cup or bust.

 

[Filppula]

Big loss tonight. Gives Buffalo some breathing space on us. Great win by Dallas too.

Really, I think we're looking at no worse than 7th. Avs, Canucks, Yotes, Devils (in total free fall) all look likely to be below us, Dallas is 50/50. Throw in the Las Vegas pick, shaping up as around 5-7.

 

[Shaman464]

This feels like the first season of Rich Rod in Michigan and how he ruined the bowl streak of Michigan. Same with trashill truth an NHL coach and this team is in the post season. But now the streak is over every season is cup or bust. Holland thinks the pressure will go down but it will actually go up. After this season Cup or bust.

There is no way after this season its cup or bust, unless Holland adds Shatenkirk and McDavid to this team. And don't see how you can blame Blashill for this team. This team was a bubble team when Babs left, and he's arguably the best coach in the league. Add to that the loss of Datsyuk and this team is only preforming marginally worse than it should. The players who are currently "under performing" are ones who actually over performed in the past. Without elite talent to shelter them, they have come back to earth. Sorry, but this dumpster fire fall squarely on Holland. No matter how much Blashill rearranges deck chairs, this Titanic was bound to sink.

 

[jkutswings]

Big loss tonight. Gives Buffalo some breathing space on us. Great win by Dallas too.

Really, I think we're looking at no worse than 7th. Avs, Canucks, Yotes, Devils (in total free fall) all look likely to be below us, Dallas is 50/50. Throw in the Las Vegas pick, shaping up as around 5-7.

Yeah, New Jersey looks pretty determined, but hopefully they can at least pick ahead of Dallas and Vancouver.

Or just get really lucky on lottery night and go after Patrick or Hischier.

 

[Retire91]

This team was dragged kicking and screaming into the first steps of a rebuild. Selling UFAs is not a bold step either. We will see if it continues or if it's already time to sign some 35 year old vets to 4 year contracts to play on the third pairing.

Haha forgive me sticking on semantics but this just isn't a rebuild not yet. After years of veteran signings and rentals trading a few spare parts for 3rd round picks isn't really a solid sign of an organization committing to a rebuild. We need to see much more than that like a UFA that can be built around, or a trade for a player that fills a need and can also be in a core going forward. Holland isn't rebuilding, he just failed to the point that he is getting a top draft pick and sold off some spare parts when the opportunity was clear he should do so.

Crediting this as a rebuild is like crediting someone who passed out blackout drunk as getting the sleep they have been needing.

 

[Frk It]

We did the bare minimum to be considered "buyers". It's almost like saying we're not rebuilding because we waived Pulkkinen but we signed Vanek. These are very minor moves.

We didn't pay a huge price... but we traded 2nd and 3rd round picks for 35+ year old players to play here for 2 months. However major or minor you deem that to be -- re-building teams stockpile picks, don't give them up for players on their last legs.

And I'm looking more at the big picture. Core players aging/retiring = team is rebuilding, whether they want to or not. If you're operating on the very strict definition of "rebuilding" that means you do a firesale, stock up on draft picks, intentionally suck for several years.. then sure, we haven't been rebuilding until now.

If we're looking at the big picture, and saying the priority should be shifting from an old core to new core, then I'd say we have been doing a lousy job. Especially if you want to say that has been the priority of "re-building" the last 4-5 years.

But rebuilding can be done in many different ways and most importantly there can be many different phases of a rebuild. Last 5 years were if nothing else at least the early stage of the rebuild, the preparation phase.
Now we're hitting a more intense rebuilding period where we get top picks and require bigger things in order to turn the team around.

Last 5 years we have been pushing the re-build off, more than anything. Which I can honestly understand and sympathize with, given our circumstances. I just hope we don't revert back to that now that it should be pretty apparent an honest rebuild is imminent/inevitable.

If you're saying simply that roster turnover = re-building, I'd say that is false. Especially when the quality of the replacements isn't greater than the original players, in most cases. Roster turnover is something all teams have to do, regardless of what their strategy is. It's just the circle of life in the NHL.

There's no "dumb stuff" we can do this summer that pulls us out of a rebuild apart from, I guess, trading our 1st or Larkin/Mantha/Svech/AA for 30+ year olds or something like that.

Lots of dumb stuff, or dumb contracts we could make happen this summer.

 

[Frk It]

As to the current season and the tank subject of this thread, I have an honest question for people. I'm on board with the notion that this season is a loss and I'd be fine with them finishing as low in the standings as possible to get a good draft pick. But I can't root for individual players or the team as a whole to play poorly, that just feels wrong. How do you guys reconcile that in your mind? Just curious because it's something I've been struggling with the past few weeks.

Welcome to the board.

You don't have to root for individual players to be bad for this team to be bad. You know the saying "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"? That quote works well for this team, just in reverse.