GDT: St. Louis Blues @ Detroit Red Wings

[Mlotek]

I'm fine with trading Vanek, Smith, Green, Jurco and etc...

I just don't want to see a "Shanaplan" here. I want Wings, as a team, put their best foot forward and try to win games. I want to see Ken Holland sign the Greens, OTTs, Booths, and Daleys of the world so they can win more games than not... and have assets to trade off for free picks.

I don't consider that a tank. I consider that smart asset management. And I consider that a GM giving the team players to help them succeed. Lets face it, Barkovs, McDavids, Eckblads of the world are not hitting free agency. So we can go ahead and spend the cap. Those players are not ever going to be available for free.

That's what I would call a natural tank. Ken Holland is trying to build a competitive team, but the young guns don't have the *it* factor to drive the team to gloryland. But Kenny is giving them the players to help support them if they do ever learn how to drive the bus.

Would only consider that true if he found a suitable replacement for Lidstrom. Unlike the Rafalski retirement which came out of the blue, the Lidstrom retirement was inevitable for years.

Ken didn't find a suitable top pairing replacement, the signing of Green was closest thing and that was YEARS after Lidstrom's retirement.

Even with Lidstrom, the team was barely squeaking into playoffs on OTLs.

 

[Dotter]

There's no player on this green earth that can replace Lidstrom. By the truest of true definitions, he is irreplaceable. They call him The Perfect Human for really real reasons. That's not a made up fabrication.

But as far as "suitable" replacement. Ryan Suter is the only guy who would have qualified, and what could have Ken Holland do better that Mike Ilitch couldn't do when he flew his private jet with bags and bags of money to meet Suter personally face-to-face to court him?

 

[TheMule93]

Dahlin will do just fine in replacing lidstrom

 

[jkutswings]

I'm fine with trading Vanek, Smith, Green, Jurco and etc...

I just don't want to see a "Shanaplan" here. I want Wings, as a team, put their best foot forward and try to win games.

In terms of the players always doing their best and trying to win, I'm with you so far (although there's nothing suggesting that any players in Toronto ever have less than their best effort to win)...

I want to see Ken Holland sign the Greens, OTTs, Booths, and Daleys of the world so they can win more games than not... and have assets to trade off for free picks.

And that's where I hop off the bus. For where this roster is right now, there's zero point in signing these guys. All they do is kick the can down the road, keeping the team in mediocrity.

I don't consider that a tank. I consider that smart asset management. And I consider that a GM giving the team players to help them succeed. Lets face it, Barkovs, McDavids, Eckblads of the world are not hitting free agency. So we can go ahead and spend the cap. Those players are not ever going to be available for free.

I don't want them to play the kids because I'm hoping to have the cap space to land an elite free agent. I want them to let the kids swim or sink, because, until they have enough cheap young talent established, no activity in free agency makes any sense at all. Develop your backbone from within. Make a trade or two as necessary to profit from strengths and shore up weaknesses. Then, once you're only a piece or two away from being a favorite in the playoffs, THEN go land a decent free agent to put the cherry on the sundae.

That's what I would call a natural tank. Ken Holland is trying to build a competitive team, but the young guns don't have the *it* factor to drive the team to gloryland. But Kenny is giving them the players to help support them if they do ever learn how to drive the bus.

But what if I think this approach will never yield anybody good enough to drive the bus? That's a lot of supporting cast, with no foundation. A 'donut roster', if you will (hole in the middle).

 

[ArGarBarGar]

There's no player on this green earth that can replace Lidstrom. By the truest of true definitions, he is irreplaceable. They call him The Perfect Human for really real reasons. That's not a made up fabrication.

But as far as "suitable" replacement. Ryan Suter is the only guy who would have qualified, and what could have Ken Holland do better that Mike Ilitch couldn't do when he flew his private jet with bags and bags of money to meet Suter personally face-to-face to court him?

Not wait until 2012 to find a suitable replacement?

 

[jkutswings]

There's no player on this green earth that can replace Lidstrom. By the truest of true definitions, he is irreplaceable. They call him The Perfect Human for really real reasons. That's not a made up fabrication.

But as far as "suitable" replacement. Ryan Suter is the only guy who would have qualified, and what could have Ken Holland do better that Mike Ilitch couldn't do when he flew his private jet with bags and bags of money to meet Suter personally face-to-face to court him?

Nobody asked anybody to clone him. But hardly even drafting anybody at the position, when you know he could leave at any time, was horrendous preparation.

 

[Winger98]

I'm fine with trading Vanek, Smith, Green, Jurco and etc...

I just don't want to see a "Shanaplan" here. I want Wings, as a team, put their best foot forward and try to win games. I want to see Ken Holland sign the Greens, OTTs, Booths, and Daleys of the world so they can win more games than not... and have assets to trade off for free picks.

I don't consider that a tank. I consider that smart asset management. And I consider that a GM giving the team players to help them succeed. Lets face it, Barkovs, McDavids, Eckblads of the world are not hitting free agency. So we can go ahead and spend the cap. Those players are not ever going to be available for free.

That's what I would call a natural tank. Ken Holland is trying to build a competitive team, but the young guns don't have the *it* factor to drive the team to gloryland. But Kenny is giving them the players to help support them if they do ever learn how to drive the bus.

Some of these things are not like the others. I don't really have a problem with Holland spending term/cap on the right players - players like Green. Or signing others to one year deals, like Ott and Booth. Daley is nothing more than a serviceable top4, though. And signing him to three years is clear we're not dealing him until later, if we deal him at all.

If we had the space and were able to grab someone like De Haan or Gudbrannason (sp?) next summer, I wouldn't complain. Good young guys, should be here awhile where we can work around them and they can be a part of something. If we're signing 33 year olds, unless it's someone like Green who has shown they have that top gear in their game and can still be expected to come in and seriously produce, I have a hard time seeing the use for it. At least not while we still have Ericsson and Kronwall on the team, and Dekeyser, and are able to run them out there for around 20 minutes a night.

Also, and I know we disagree on this (or at least we have in the past), but I think there's value to having some cap space to facilitate trades. At some point it seems someone is looking to dump some contract and is willing to package something nice with it to make it happen. Being able to step into that sort of deal isn't the worst thing. Or even just being in a position where we don't have to insist on sending salary back to make a trade happen.

 

[Dotter]

Not wait until 2012 to find a suitable replacement?

Normally I would ask who? But for fun lets say Brent Burns since he was a guy Babcock was pissed about. If you remember, Wings were too busy *winning and didn't have the trade assets. I guess my question is at the time what young players/prospects did Red Wings have to rival what Minny got from Sharks?

Then later there was Dion Phanuef I guess for Mantha was it?

*As for not having assets when they were winning, it should be noted that currently during this time of rebuild, Red Wings selected more players in the draft last season then they have in the past 20+ years. And possibly going to do the same this draft. Nearly 50% of those selections are dmen.

Nobody asked anybody to clone him. But hardly even drafting anybody at the position, when you know he could leave at any time, was horrendous preparation.

Jim Nill doesn't draft many Dmen on the Stars either. We are lucky he is gone. Nearly 50% of our draft selections the past few years are spent on dmen.

 

[Dotter]

Some of these things are not like the others. I don't really have a problem with Holland spending term/cap on the right players - players like Green. Or signing others to one year deals, like Ott and Booth. Daley is nothing more than a serviceable top4, though. And signing him to three years is clear we're not dealing him until later, if we deal him at all.

If we had the space and were able to grab someone like De Haan or Gudbrannason (sp?) next summer, I wouldn't complain. Good young guys, should be here awhile where we can work around them and they can be a part of something. If we're signing 33 year olds, unless it's someone like Green who has shown they have that top gear in their game and can still be expected to come in and seriously produce, I have a hard time seeing the use for it. At least not while we still have Ericsson and Kronwall on the team, and Dekeyser, and are able to run them out there for around 20 minutes a night.

Also, and I know we disagree on this (or at least we have in the past), but I think there's value to having some cap space to facilitate trades. At some point it seems someone is looking to dump some contract and is willing to package something nice with it to make it happen. Being able to step into that sort of deal isn't the worst thing. Or even just being in a position where we don't have to insist on sending salary back to make a trade happen.

I like Daley. I just replied to 3 posters that said "Kenny didn't have a plan when he knew Lidstrom was about to retire". This is Kenny preparing for one (or all) of Ericsson, Kronwall or Green to be gone to either trade or LTIR. Nobody knows how much time those 3 will be playing. So having Daley as a sure bet insurance policy is fine by me.

Your comment about maybe/hopefully/wishing we grab guy-X during the free agent frenzy is what people *and you* are saying got Kenny in this mess to begin with because he didn't have a plan and whiffed on "maybes" and "hopefullys". He didn't whiff on this top4 (Daley) when we could lose 3 by the start of next season.

You can't complain he didn't have a plan then complain about the plan after he locks down the best available plan for the next 3 years. Maybe he could get De Haan or Gudbrannason. Maybe he can't. But if hindsight taught us anything, is it's risky to "hope" when one was available now while knowing the future of our 3 looks bleak.

 

[Winger98]

I seriously wonder if Z wants to come back next year at this point. His point pace is the lowest it's been since his rookie year. Next year is his salary drops over 50%, too.

Maybe he pulls a Shane Doan and sticks it out through everything, but man, it's hard watching him struggle.

How much of it is physical and how much mental? I think a lot of it right now is just Z mentally not being there, which sucks.

I like Daley. I just replied to 3 posters that said "Kenny didn't have a plan when he knew Lidstrom was about to retire". This is Kenny preparing for one (or all) of Ericsson, Kronwall or Green to be gone to either trade or LTIR. Nobody knows how much time those 3 will be playing. So having Daley as a sure bet insurance policy is fine by me.

Your comment about maybe/hopefully/wishing we grab guy-X during the free agent frenzy is what people *and you* are saying got Kenny in this mess to begin with because he didn't have a plan and whiffed on "maybes" and "hopefullys". He didn't whiff on this top4 (Daley) when we could lose 3 by the start of next season.

You can't complain he didn't have a plan then complain about the plan after he locks down the best available plan for the next 3 years. Maybe he could get De Haan or Gudbrannason. Maybe he can't. But if hindsight taught us anything, is it's risky to "hope" when one was available now while knowing the future of our 3 looks bleak.

Except he an probably grab another Daley level player next year. Or the year after. Or pretty much every year. The guy just isn't anything special and signing him wasn't some big coup. It was Holland being willing to throw an offer that was cash and term at a guy who probably wasn't getting similar offers from anyone.

Signing Daley as prep for losing other players is like Holland signing Ian White and Carlo Colaiacovo. Except he got better term on both of those guys.

 

[Syckle78]

I seriously wonder if Z wants to come back next year at this point. His point pace is the lowest it's been since his rookie year. Next year is his salary drops over 50%, too.

Maybe he pulls a Shane Doan and sticks it out through everything, but man, it's hard watching him struggle.

I threw it out there before the season that I thought this would be hanks last year. He's not going to be making much (relative to him) after taxes and whatnot next year. The way this year is going and knowing next year won't be any better has to be taking a mental toll. Maybe Holland let's him hand pick a coach to get him to continue? Idk. Big question is if he retired or they try to get him on ltir. It's going to be difficult after being healthy the last two years.

 

[Dotter]

How much of it is physical and how much mental? I think a lot of it right now is just Z mentally not being there, which sucks.


Except he an probably grab another Daley level player next year. Or the year after. Or pretty much every year. The guy just isn't anything special and signing him wasn't some big coup. It was Holland being willing to throw an offer that was cash and term at a guy who probably wasn't getting similar offers from anyone.

Signing Daley as prep for losing other players is like Holland signing Ian White and Carlo Colaiacovo. Except he got better term on both of those guys.

Clearly our opinion on Daley differs. Daley has been a solid fit since the start of the season. White (when not paired with Lids) and Carlo quickly proved to be dumpster fires (and I agree, mistakes). White I get because I think Lidstrom and Babcock were specifically vocal about adding RHD. RHD were hard to find at the time, so he did what he could adding White after he had a solid season with the Sharks.

I think fans of teams where Daley played generally thought he was a solid top4 and liked him. And he's probably better than both Ericsson and Kronwall in their current state of health. And to me, Daley seems like the kind of dman that will be okay health wise in the NHL. He's not a banger.

And if one of Ericsson or Kronwall do decide to LTIR this summer and Green already traded at deadline, perhaps Holland can peruse De Haan if he is available. In that case, Wings could use 1 more vet and promote a kid from within. Also, Jensen could be traded too. I see nothing in his game that suggests he should remain a DRWs other than being a cheap warm body.

Imagine if Wings lost Kronwall, Green and Ericsson playing on 1 hip and not having the insurance policy; Daley, only to whiff out on De Haan... shew! I am not so sure depth top4s hit the UFA market every season, and if they do... who says they wouldn't rather go play for TML instead or where ever?

 

[RedWingzz]

Joe Veleno(C), Oliver Wahlstrom(C/W), Ty Smith(D), Rasmus Kupari(C), Quinton Hughes(D)

Hughes is a top 5 pick, guaranteed. I wouldn't be shocked if Hughes goes 3rd. I'm starting to do a bunch of research on the draft, and for me at the moment it's a toss-up between Hughes and Boqvist at #3.

 

[Redder Winger]

Clearly our opinion on Daley differs. Daley has been a solid fit since the start of the season. White (when not paired with Lids) and Carlo quickly proved to be dumpster fires (and I agree, mistakes). White I get because I think Lidstrom and Babcock were specifically vocal about adding RHD. RHD were hard to find at the time, so he did what he could adding White after he had a solid season with the Sharks.

I think fans of teams where Daley played generally thought he was a solid top4 and liked him. And he's probably better than both Ericsson and Kronwall in their current state of health. And to me, Daley seems like the kind of dman that will be okay health wise in the NHL. He's not a banger.

And if one of Ericsson or Kronwall do decide to LTIR this summer and Green already traded at deadline, perhaps Holland can peruse De Haan if he is available. In that case, Wings could use 1 more vet and promote a kid from within. Also, Jensen could be traded too. I see nothing in his game that suggests he should remain a DRWs other than being a cheap warm body.

Imagine if Wings lost Kronwall, Green and Ericsson playing on 1 hip and not having the insurance policy; Daley, only to whiff out on De Haan... shew! I am not so sure depth top4s hit the UFA market every season, and if they do... who says they wouldn't rather go play for TML instead or where ever?

Daley sucks.
27 games
1 assist.
-12.

He's a top 4 the way Matthieu Dandenault was a top 4 for awhile on Detroit.

You can get away with that shit when you're running Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and Draper at center.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Daley is the worst at helping the team score. And we have ericsson,broken kronwall, Danny d, a 24 year old dman who is more of a shutdown type and jensen

Actually Danny d is slightly worse but it’s really by the size of a bread crumb that fell on the floor

 

[Frk It]

Hughes is a top 5 pick, guaranteed. I wouldn't be shocked if Hughes goes 3rd. I'm starting to do a bunch of research on the draft, and for me at the moment it's a toss-up between Hughes and Boqvist at #3.

While I’m a big fan of Quinn Hughes, on a podcast a month or two ago his coach said he was “up to 5’9.5”. So I’m not sure I buy into that he’s a guaranteed top 3 or top 5 pick.

 

[Grimm]

I hope you guys know we aren't getting Dahlin. That means we have to tank the bottom 2 in the NHL probably. Unless lady luck massively hits us. Like, massive. We realistically won't be picking #1. Our tank best case is going to be #4 I bet due to Vegas.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I hope you guys know we aren't getting Dahlin. That means we have to tank the bottom 2 in the NHL probably. Unless lady luck massively hits us. Like, massive. We realistically won't be picking #1. Our tank best case is going to be #4 I bet due to Vegas.

Vegas doesn’t get top odds so they have to play historically bad to fall below us and get better chances

 

[Grimm]

Vegas doesn’t get top odds so they have to play historically bad to fall below us and get better chances

I thought Vegas was guaranteed 3rd or below? No??

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I thought Vegas was guaranteed 3rd or below? No??

They didn’t even pick top 5 last year they picked 6.

They had a great chance to pick top 3 last year iirc and that was for that year only I’m pretty sure

 

[Ezekial]

They didn’t even pick top 5 last year they picked 6.

They had a great chance to pick top 3 last year iirc and that was for that year only I’m pretty sure

They had the same odds as the 3rd from the bottom team in the lottery. They get no carry over to next year.

 

[Dotter]

Bode Wilde, D, 6-foot-2, 197 pounds (USNTDP): Great skater, big shot, enjoys the offensive side of the game. Athletic genes have put him on a pro path since early in his minor hockey career.

"Wilde is a big, two-way difference–maker on the back-end…a big kid that is also a real solid skater…transitions smoothly…passes the puck with authority and accuracy…has a booming slap shot from the point that he can unleash in a hurry…he can be a real catalyst on the power play…shows nice leadership skills…calm puck handling, rarely displaying panic under pressure…generates time and space by using body positioning…uses his big frame to step into opponents and shut them down physically"

^This kid seems like he fits the bill in terms of both size and athleticism.


Sportsnet’s 2018 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings: December - Sportsnet.ca

 

[avssuc]

Daley sucks.
27 games
1 assist.
-12.

He's a top 4 the way Matthieu Dandenault was a top 4 for awhile on Detroit.

You can get away with that **** when you're running Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and Draper at center.

What are the advanced stats here?

In the very small amount of his shifts I've seen, he's looked decent to me. Certainly the 2nd best D on the team. Yea, the team is super bad, but I just don't feel as disgusted watching him play, contrary to most of the others.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But there's a meaningful difference between flying and just throwing yourself at the ground and missing.

You get a lot more kudos if you do the right thing in the first place than if you try to do the wrong thing, fail at it, and bumble into the right thing.

We have different opinions on what the "wrong thing" is then. If Holland had traded big to land instant help and went after big-name FAs like Alzner etc. and we were still this bad, that would be the wrong thing in my eyes. Staying patient and letting the chips fall where they may is a very reasonable rebuild strategy imo. If it lands you just outside the playoff picture several years in a row you need to change that strategy, but that hasn't even happened once to us yet.

 

[TheMule93]

man, we really suck don't we