GDT: St. Louis Blues @ Detroit Red Wings

[jkutswings]

We have different opinions on what the "wrong thing" is then. If Holland had traded big to land instant help and went after big-name FAs like Alzner etc. and we were still this bad, that would be the wrong thing in my eyes. Staying patient and letting the chips fall where they may is a very reasonable rebuild strategy imo. If it lands you just outside the playoff picture several years in a row you need to change that strategy, but that hasn't even happened once to us yet.

But that's not what he did. Nobody forced him to rush out and sign Abdelkader to 7 years before his current deal was even close to expiring. Nobody demanded that he give Helm 5 years. Nobody held him hostage to overpay Nielsen.

Staying patient and letting the chips fall where they may would be a combination of letting the kids play, and things like the Vanek contract. Those are moves that are easy to get out of, if they don't work. Instead, he spent years desperately clinging to the role of '1st round cannon fodder' by signing long-term deals to veterans.

Now maybe last year was the start of real changes. But let's not pretend that the roster has been constructed in the vein of, 'staying patient, and whatever happens, happens'. Holland did everything he possibly could to artificially maintain a token streak, and the aftermath of that approach is a significant element to the mess they're in today.

 

[Dotter]

he spent years desperately clinging to the role of '1st round cannon fodder' by signing long-term deals to veterans.

For a dying man

 

[HIFE]

 

[avssuc]

For a dying man

There's a flip side here too...

For a man so proud of how the Wings dominated, how could he willingly agree to mediocrity (playoff streak with no chance at contention)?

But there's also things that make me agree with what you're saying. He fired Dombrowski for far less, right after he made some amazing trades to build for the future. That seemed insane at the time, still does now. Was it Mike or Chris?

In any event, I'm not too upset with ownership, and I'm not against the notion that Holland is towing the line. Still, Holland should have more pride, just like Dombrowski.

 

[Syckle78]

For a dying man

I thought it was for money? Now it's for the honor of a dying man?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Desperately signing helm and Nielsen because he intentionally did not have a backup plan for stamkos was and is just as bad if not worse then not signing alzner

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This appeal to Ilitch being old and dying is really absurd. He was a billionaire who made a crazy amount of money through his investments in Detroit. He was not and is not above criticism and the moves made on his behalf are certainly not above criticism, either.

 

[Dotter]

I thought it was for money? Now it's for the honor of a dying man?

Is every decision one makes always and only based on 1 exclusive element? We all learned the pros and cons list in grade school, right? You'd have to think Billionaires also take everything into account when they make decisions, too.

Perhaps they felt:
Honor Mr I.
Z and D still have gas and want to win
Milking revenue
25 year streak

But in your world it can only be 1? If life were only that black and white with no other colors options, boy how does that fit the M.O. of this message forum oh-so-well.

 

[Dotter]

This appeal to Ilitch being old and dying is really absurd. He was a billionaire who made a crazy amount of money through his investments in Detroit. He was not and is not above criticism and the moves made on his behalf are certainly not above criticism, either.

Criticize - Just have perspective. The talking points regarding Holland is redundant and old. If he truly was the one and only primary problem for all of Detroit, he'd been fired by now. Wings (and ownership) decided the playoff streak was more important and figured the extra 2 year wait on a rebuild was more worth it. Criticize. But they pay the salaries. You, as a consumer, get to choose whether or not you want to pay for tickets and merch. Wonderful country we live in, isn't it?

 

[ricky0034]

Is every decision one makes always and only based on 1 exclusive element? We all learned the pros and cons list in grade school, right? You'd have to think Billionaires also take everything into account when they make decisions, too.

Perhaps they felt:
Honor Mr I.
Z and D still have gas and want to win
Milking revenue
25 year streak

But in your world it can only be 1? If life were only that black and white with no other colors options, boy how does that fit the M.O. of this message forum oh-so-well.

or maybe it's just incompetence

you're here constructing this increasingly elaborate list of excuses for Holland,Can't he just be a bad GM? ever hear of Occam's razor?

 

[Redder Winger]

Desperately signing helm and Nielsen because he intentionally did not have a backup plan for stamkos was and is just as bad if not worse then not signing alzner

That was all Holland.

 

[Dotter]

or maybe it's just incompetence

you're here constructing this increasingly elaborate list of excuses for Holland,Can't he just be a bad GM? ever hear of Occam's razor?

I believe there is a chain of command, I think there are meetings and group decisions with sit-downs with ownership (and their CFO) to discuss expectations of the current state and future of the team. If you really study the actions of the franchise, I think it draws a clear and concise picture. Ownership and management of Wings are not transparent. So it seems like it's easier for everyone to mobb together and blame 1 villain to all world problems.

I think some fans expect a full presser with a step-by-step blueprint guide how they plan on achieving their next half century legacy... and it better be a 2 or 3 year window!

EDIT:
I am giving Ken Holland 10 years to turn this team into a top 10 contender. I consider we are currently on year #2 of the rebuild. I expect us to be a top 10 team in the league by 2026. If not, I am jumping on the bandwagon. But I'm not going to starting worrying until 2024. I feel like that is realistic expectations based on previous NHL teams that have already been through rebuilds.

 

[StargateSG1]

I believe there is a chain of command, I think there are meetings and group decisions with sit-downs with ownership (and their CFO) to discuss expectations of the current state and future of the team. If you really study the actions of the franchise, I think it draws a clear and concise picture. Ownership and management of Wings are not transparent. So it seems like it's easier for everyone to mobb together and blame 1 villain to all world problems.

I think some fans expect a full presser with a step-by-step blueprint guide how they plan on achieving their next half century legacy... and it better be a 2 or 3 year window!

Even Devellano mentioned that Wings need a proper rebuild earlier this season, I believe.
If they "sit down and talk about it", it seems they are not all on the same page.

 

[Dotter]

I am giving Ken Holland 10 years to turn this team into a top 10 contender. I consider we are currently on year #2 of the rebuild. I expect us to be a top 10 team in the league by 2026. If not, I am jumping on the bandwagon. But I'm not going to starting worrying until 2024. I feel like that is realistic expectations based on previous NHL teams that have already been through rebuilds.

 

[TheMule93]

Four of our last 5 games were blowout losses

The one that wasn't a blowout loss was a blowout win

 

[StargateSG1]

I am giving Ken Holland 10 years to turn this team into a top 10 contender. I consider we are currently on year #2 of the rebuild. I expect us to be a top 10 team in the league by 2026. If not, I am jumping on the bandwagon. But I'm not going to starting worrying until 2024. I feel like that is realistic expectations based on previous NHL teams that have already been through rebuilds.

Year 2? LMAO
I honestly can't stop laughing.
Yeah, let's just give the dude 20 years to "rebuild".
Maybe he'll figure out this "Cap Thing" in a few.
That should be some kinda record.

 

[Dotter]

Even Devellano mentioned that Wings need a proper rebuild earlier this season, I believe.
If they "sit down and talk about it", it seems they are not all on the same page.

Really? Because he is on record saying this:

"From ownership on down, we don't want to gut it and go to the bottom. We just don't want to do that — we're going to a new building." - Jim Devellano

 

[Dotter]

Year 2? LMAO
I honestly can't stop laughing.
Yeah, let's just give the dude 20 years to "rebuild".
Maybe he'll figure out this "Cap Thing" in a few.
That should be some kinda record.

Using your logic, Pens had a 20 year rebuild, Oilers on their 3rd rebuild now, Chicago 60 year rebuild. That is using your logic.

 

[Sadekuuro]

I am giving Ken Holland 10 years to turn this team into a top 10 contender.

What?!

 

[Dotter]

What?!

 

[TheMule93]

We've been retooling since 2010. We're on year 7-8 of a rebuild.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But that's not what he did. Nobody forced him to rush out and sign Abdelkader to 7 years before his current deal was even close to expiring. Nobody demanded that he give Helm 5 years. Nobody held him hostage to overpay Nielsen.

Bad contracts on paper. Don’t see anything hurting a rebuild with some deals like that in place though. Imo it was at least in part Holland preparing for a big focus on drafting D. Some stability up front while we’re replacing (likely) every D-man, goalie and coach in the next 3-5 years. Again, it’s philosophical differences in what we see as the doing the wrong things in a rebuild. You’re very all-or-nothing. I think a more patient, measured approach can work.

 

[Dotter]

We've been retooling since 2010. We're on year 7-8 of a rebuild.

Chicago trading Panarin for Saad is "retooling". Selling at deadline for draft picks to gather more selections in a single draft in over 20+ years is... "rebuilding".

Wings are currently on year 2 of an actual rebuild. By 2026 Wings *should* be a top 10 contender in the NHL.

 

[jkutswings]

The average tenure of an NHL GM is 5 years. You're giving Holland 10 because he used to be part of a very successful team, despite 5 years and counting of an unacceptable product. I'll pass.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Criticize - Just have perspective. The talking points regarding Holland is redundant and old. If he truly was the one and only primary problem for all of Detroit, he'd been fired by now. Wings (and ownership) decided the playoff streak was more important and figured the extra 2 year wait on a rebuild was more worth it. Criticize. But they pay the salaries. You, as a consumer, get to choose whether or not you want to pay for tickets and merch. Wonderful country we live in, isn't it?

This is asinine. I do not solely blame Holland. Most people don't 100%. But he is the face of management when it comes to the roster and the coaching staff. He deserves a large share of the blame for how he has managed the team.

It is possible the owners are a big reason he has done what he has done. But that just makes them culpable to a poor model and a far cry from what the team used to be. I don't care if they cared about the streak, or they wanted to stay "competitive". They made poor choices and kept the team limping along, which has led to a mediocre product that is spending to the salary cap every year. We have one of the worst defenses in the league, potentially no superstar at forward, a complete question mark in goal going forward, and a coaching staff that doesn't produce.

There is no defense for the state of the team. The fact you are willing to give management another 8 years or so before you are willing to part ways is telling.