So how do we look?

[allan5oh]

Hear hear. That is part of the reason why resigning wellwood pissed me off

Didn't have much choice really. We have a pretty big hole behind Wheeler on RW. Selanne, Doan, and a few others were not signed, but weren't available to us. Wellwood was by far the best choice.

Nobody in our system could graduate to his spot either.

 

[Positive]

We should have a Buff pool. You know, like a baby pool. Everyone take their best guess at how much he weighs when he arrives.

 

[Huffer]

History is littered with teams that had potential but got bogged down in the EXACT spot the ATL/WPG franchise has been in for a few years now...9-12, doing nothing, not getting better. Littered. Good teams progress through that range quickly, the Jets are already been in that range too long, another year and this core will not get it done. Barring a miracle pull out of the hat for the first overall pick, you won't get the talent you need to progress, and after this long in this range the talent in the system will not improve enough long term to take the Jets to the levels I want them to be at. I don't care that's it's a short season, this is a do or die season for this group, IMO. I want a Stanley Cup contender, not a playoff contender. The steps have to start now or they will never happen with this group.

I understand the sentiment, and agree somewhat (agree that at some point a team has to decide which way it is going - Hello Calgary!), but I don't know if I really agree with your premise that if the Jets are not a Cup contender this year that it's blow up the team time.

Are you saying that if the team is not a cup contender this year that you would want to deal Ladd, Little, Wheeler, Enstrom, Buff, and Pavelec? (I'm assuming that young guys like Kane, Burmi, Scheifele, and Bogo are part of the rebuild?).

IMO, that's a pretty youngish core to deal away. I would think an alternative strategy would be to keep all of the above, add another medium to large FA if possible (Zajac, etc), make the playoffs next year (2013-2014), and then be a contender when Kane, Burmi, and hopefully Scheifele are playing bigger roles, and Trouba is hopefully contributing a bit as well. At that stage (2014-2015), Ladd will be 28, Little 27, Wheeler 28, Enstrom 30, and Buff 29. That doesn't seem that old to me, and I would think you could give that group at least a year or two at that point with a supporting cast (Kane 23, Burmi 23, Bogo 24, Scheifele 21, Trouba 20, Lowry 21).

I'm thinking there must be a happy medium between Calgary's continued mediocrity (bad trades and signings helped), and Edmonton's scorched Earth plan.

I think it was Jet (apologies if it wasn't) that described being against the blow it up and start from scratch Edmonton model, as it caused the young guys to be surrounded by a terrible cast year after year. If we blew up the Ladd group to focus on the Scheifele group, would we have an adequate surrounding cast for them? Or would they fail as well because we wouldn't have the depth or talent overall to compete?

 

[truck]

I've read some pretty in depth analysis on contenders, and it seems as though the third line is usually the key line, because the first two tend to cancel each other out on great teams.

But you're right, you need basically two really good lines that click, and a well above average third line.

That makes sense.

Depth is huge. Gotta be able to battle through slumps and injuries.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I'm thinking there must be a happy medium between Calgary's continued mediocrity (bad trades and signings helped), and Edmonton's scorched Earth plan.

To add to that, the scorched earth rebuild will no longer be as effective, given that under the new CBA all teams that miss the playoffs now have a shot at picking first overall in a draft lottery. There is not as much reason to tank to last place if you aren't guaranteed to reap the reward of the #1 pick.

 

[truck]

To add to that, the scorched earth rebuild will no longer be as effective, given that under the new CBA all teams that miss the playoffs now have a shot at picking first overall in a draft lottery. There is not as much reason to tank to last place if you aren't guaranteed to reap the reward of the #1 pick.

I also heard that getting a 1st overall pick will hurt your chances of getting it again the next year. It will be interesting to learn the specifics.

 

[jetkarma*]

To add to that, the scorched earth rebuild will no longer be as effective, given that under the new CBA all teams that miss the playoffs now have a shot at picking first overall in a draft lottery. There is not as much reason to tank to last place if you aren't guaranteed to reap the reward of the #1 pick.

You were not guarranteed that prior to this you though , ask CBJ.

 

[Gump Hasek]

You were not guarranteed that prior to this you though , ask CBJ.

Yes. But the odds of that happening again have now increased, markedly so in fact. That was the point.

 

[allan5oh]

One thing to consider doing a mild rebuild is that rental players moving forward will be more valuable due to more teams right at the cap. The next two seasons after this one will be very interesting.

The question is will Chevy sell his rentals if we're potentially in a playoff position? It also depends on the player and what the asking price is.

 

[sully1410]

Didn't have much choice really. We have a pretty big hole behind Wheeler on RW. Selanne, Doan, and a few others were not signed, but weren't available to us. Wellwood was by far the best choice.

Nobody in our system could graduate to his spot either.

I know that. I just think that this team is not a playoff team, let alone a cup contendor with Kyle Wellwood playing in the top six.

 

[puck stoppa]

Wellwood will have a career year (17 goals, 33 assists), you heard it here first! And as for the rental comment, who would be the Jets best rental players that teams would seek? Are you talking Antro or Poni boy?

 

[sully1410]

Wellwood will have a career year, you heard it here first! And as for the rental comment, who would be the Jets best rental players that teams would seek? Are you talking Antro or Poni boy?

I highly doubt that either of them get traded tbh.I think we'll be right in the thick of it when the deadline rolls around, and we'll need both players going forward.

 

[CorgisPer60]

I highly doubt that either of them get traded tbh.I think we'll be right in the thick of it when the deadline rolls around, and we'll need both players going forward.

Agreed. I want to see if they can reclaim some of that chemistry they had in Toronto.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Agreed. I want to see if they can reclaim some of that chemistry they had in Toronto.

Put Wellwood with them, and I'd suffer from "I used to cheer for the Leafs" syndrome.

Please Noel: don't do that to me.

 

[allan5oh]

Wellwood will have a career year (17 goals, 33 assists), you heard it here first! And as for the rental comment, who would be the Jets best rental players that teams would seek? Are you talking Antro or Poni boy?

Antropov, Hainsey, Ponikarovsky, Wellwood, Miettenen, Clitsome all expire into UFA status this year. We wouldn't get much value this year, but next year and the year after is the ticket. Not sure Jokinen would get much next year due to the Jokinen playoff curse. There's also Thorburn and Stuart for next year. I think we could get more than most people think for those two guys. Both are also guys that we should be upgrading.

 

[puck stoppa]

If Burmi played with Kane and Jokinen he would excel in my opinion, put him there please, but I think Im the only one who thinks this.

 

[truck]

If Burmi played with Kane and Jokinen he would excel in my opinion, put him there please, but I think Im the only one who thinks this.

No you aren't. I have long thought that spot on the wing was between he and Welly.

 

[allan5oh]

If Burmi played with Kane and Jokinen he would excel in my opinion, put him there please, but I think Im the only one who thinks this.

That's a very good idea, the other two would create chaos, giving Burmi more room and incentive to pass. Exactly what he needs.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I think that is a really simplistic view.

Sure, Chi and Pit hit the jackpot with top picks, but that isn't the only way to success.

The Thrash/Jets have had 5 straight top 10 picks and they all appear to be developing well. Those picks include a couple top 5 picks in Kane & Bogo that look like potential stars. Unless that group falls apart, I don't think we need to panic.

Vancouver, NJ, Phi and Detroit are perennial contenders and they aren't relying exclusively on top 10 picks. Sure the Sedins are big factor for Van and Doughty is big for LA, but depth is the key to all of those teams. Smart management, smart drafting, good goaltending and a little bit of luck is what it takes to win a cup.

It's easier to stay at the top than it is too get there. Once you are a good team, you usually have your top end guys (Sedin's, Datsyuk, Thornton/Marleau, Elias/Brodeur) in hand, then you can fill out with smart drafting, good depth, big bold moves even. It's way easier at the top. So let's just throw out those, we need to get there, is the brunt of the discussion.

Honestly, I think it was garret that did the analysis, but picks 6-15 don't tend to have that much difference in terms of success. My point is that it is very very hard to build a team with those picks. So 5 straight "top 10" picks is more a statement of problems, than it is of anything real. Teams get stuck there for a LONG LONG time (ie FLA, CLB, TOR, etc, etc), making it hard to move out of there.

I completely understand, nor would I be advocated a complete scorched earth Edmonton style. That does not serve, hell for all the talk I STILL don't think that team is going anywhere, they are very very poorly built for NHL hockey (dominate in shiny hockey though), it's just a mismanaged **** organization they have.

Good well built teams have done a "hit and run" and the bottom. Good teams tend to have 1-2 years in the complete tank (bottom 5) then do a quick turnaround back out of it. They don't always completely rely on those bottom picks either, but they do add some top end talent to go with solid drafting elsewhere. They do 1-2 years at the bottom, 1 AT MOST 2 sitting just outside playoffs, then 1-3 years as playoff fodder, before taking the step to Stanley Cup. Carolina did it. Anaheim did it. Pittsburgh did it. Chicago did it. Boston did it. Los Angeles did it. The key was they did not get stuck in the middle at the barely missing playoffs stage. Teams like Columbus, Florida, Toronto did, and they got nowhere.

Atlanta started the rebuild well. Kane and Bogosian were fine. Difference was the failed on all levels to rebuild the prospect pool elsewhere whether it be via trades (Esposito ) or through the second-seventh rounds. That is what is killing us now. That is the problem, even if our drafting/development is better, by the time the Jets guys begin to pay dividends it is far too late, unless we manage to start coming out of this now, so that guys like Lowry, Pasquale, Yuen, Olsen, etc will be stepping into complementary roles and proper roles cheaply to supplement the already established talent.

I understand the sentiment, and agree somewhat (agree that at some point a team has to decide which way it is going - Hello Calgary!), but I don't know if I really agree with your premise that if the Jets are not a Cup contender this year that it's blow up the team time.

Are you saying that if the team is not a cup contender this year that you would want to deal Ladd, Little, Wheeler, Enstrom, Buff, and Pavelec? (I'm assuming that young guys like Kane, Burmi, Scheifele, and Bogo are part of the rebuild?).

IMO, that's a pretty youngish core to deal away. I would think an alternative strategy would be to keep all of the above, add another medium to large FA if possible (Zajac, etc), make the playoffs next year (2013-2014), and then be a contender when Kane, Burmi, and hopefully Scheifele are playing bigger roles, and Trouba is hopefully contributing a bit as well. At that stage (2014-2015), Ladd will be 28, Little 27, Wheeler 28, Enstrom 30, and Buff 29. That doesn't seem that old to me, and I would think you could give that group at least a year or two at that point with a supporting cast (Kane 23, Burmi 23, Bogo 24, Scheifele 21, Trouba 20, Lowry 21).

I'm thinking there must be a happy medium between Calgary's continued mediocrity (bad trades and signings helped), and Edmonton's scorched Earth plan.

I think it was Jet (apologies if it wasn't) that described being against the blow it up and start from scratch Edmonton model, as it caused the young guys to be surrounded by a terrible cast year after year. If we blew up the Ladd group to focus on the Scheifele group, would we have an adequate surrounding cast for them? Or would they fail as well because we wouldn't have the depth or talent overall to compete?

Yet how is the hell is that different than right now? Right now they must have a terrible supporting cast since they can't make playoffs as it is.

Edmonton's all out scorched earth was flawed from the start, no doubt on that account. I talked about it above, that's one organization I would never emulate, EVER.

But all the championship teams have followed a STRIKINGLY similar pattern since the cap has been brought in. That is what the ATL franchise tried to do, but they have failed, mostly due to depth and being just average with their picks, not great, to take that next step. Jets are in real danger of being stuck in medicrity if progress is not made NOW.

You are talking about most of our core being ~30 while taking the FIRST STEPS into playoff action. By the time we should be taking steps into Stanley Cup contention, we looking at a core around 30-33, not feasible. That's also when the young guys will be getting big raises, to go with all major players being UFA eligible...it'll never work, IMO. It's just too late at that point. They should already by a SC team. You don't just turn it around in your late twenties and go from missing playoffs to Stanley Cup contenders, you need to show the steps towards progress, or you become Toronto.

If serious progress into playoff fodder team is not made, it's time for a serious retooling. I am not talking selling the team, sucking for years and years for first overall picks, but clearly this group is not a winning group. I know it's only "year 2" of Winnipeg Jets hockey, but this group has been here and is not getting the job done. What moves need to be made? Not really sure, this core still has a little time to show they can be it. But not much, and the clock is ticking very very fast.

I am not happy with mediocrity. I want a Stanley Cup. If this team is far enough out of it by the deadline that they are considering selling Antropov and Hainsey, then Pavelec, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Little, hell even Kane and Burmistrov might be on the block, IMO. Not saying you sell all of them, but time for a retooling for sure.

 

[truck]

It's easier to stay at the top than it is too get there. Once you are a good team, you usually have your top end guys (Sedin's, Datsyuk, Thornton/Marleau, Elias/Brodeur) in hand, then you can't fill out with smart drafting, good depth, big bold moves even. It's way easier at the top. So let's just throw out those, we need to get there, is the brunt of the discussion.

Honestly, I think it was garret that did the analysis, but picks 6-15 don't tend to have that much difference in terms of success. My point is that it is very very hard to build a team with those picks. So 5 straight "top 10" picks is more a statement of problems, than it is of anything real. Teams get stuck there for a LONG LONG time (ie FLA, CLB, TOR, etc, etc), making it hard to move out of there.

I completely understand, nor would I be advocated a complete scorched earth Edmonton style. That does not serve, hell for all the talk I STILL don't think that team is going anywhere, they are very very poorly built for NHL hockey (dominate in shiny hockey though), it's just a mismanaged **** organization they have.

Good well built teams have done a "hit and run" and the bottom. Good teams tend to have 1-2 years in the complete tank (bottom 5) then do a quick turnaround back out of it. They don't always completely rely on those bottom picks either, but they do add some top end talent to go with solid drafting elsewhere. They do 1-2 years at the bottom, 1 AT MOST 2 sitting just outside playoffs, then 1-3 years as playoff fodder, before taking the step to Stanley Cup. Carolina did it. Anaheim did it. Pittsburgh did it. Chicago did it. Boston did it. Los Angeles did it. The key was they did not get stuck in the middle at the barely missing playoffs stage. Teams like Columbus, Florida, Toronto did, and they got nowhere.

Atlanta started the rebuild well. Kane and Bogosian were fine. Difference was the failed on all levels to rebuild the prospect pool elsewhere whether it be via trades (Esposito ) or through the second-seventh rounds. That is what is killing us now. That is the problem, even if our drafting/development is better, by the time the Jets guys begin to pay dividends it is far too late, unless we manage to start coming out of this now, so that guys like Lowry, Pasquale, Yuen, Olsen, etc will be stepping into complementary roles and proper roles cheaply to supplement the already established talent.




Yet how is the hell is that different than right now? Right now they must have a terrible supporting cast since they can't make playoffs as it is.

Edmonton's all out scorched earth was flawed from the start, no doubt on that account. I talked about it above, that's one organization I would never emulate, EVER.

But all the championship teams have followed a STRIKINGLY similar pattern since the cap has been brought in. That is what the ATL franchise tried to do, but they have failed, mostly due to depth and being just average with their picks, not great, to take that next step. Jets are in real danger of being stuck in medicrity if progress is not made NOW.

You are talking about most of our core being ~30 while taking the FIRST STEPS into playoff action. By the time we should be taking steps into Stanley Cup contention, we looking at a core around 30-33, not feasible. That's also when the young guys will be getting big raises, to go with all major players being UFA eligible...it'll never work, IMO. It's just too late at that point. They should already by a SC team. You don't just turn it around in your late twenties and go from missing playoffs to Stanley Cup contenders, you need to show the steps towards progress, or you become Toronto.

If serious progress into playoff fodder team is not made, it's time for a serious retooling. I am not talking selling the team, sucking for years and years for first overall picks, but clearly this group is not a winning group. I know it's only "year 2" of Winnipeg Jets hockey, but this group has been here and is not getting the job done. What moves need to be made? Not really sure, this core still has a little time to show they can be it. But not much, and the clock is ticking very very fast.

I am not happy with mediocrity. I want a Stanley Cup. If this team is far enough out of it by the deadline that they are considering selling Antropov and Hainsey, then Pavelec, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Little, hell even Kane and Burmistrov might be on the block, IMO. Not saying you sell all of them, but time for a retooling for sure.

If the team can be improved by trade I am all for it and I am not happy with mediocrity either, but that isn't what we are talking about. The idea that you can only succeed by killing it with top picks (and that we know the Jets haven't done that yet) is a bit off to me.

While I agree that the draft is a crap shoot and I agree that it is harder when you pick later but high picks are not the only way to acquire talent.

Among the core players you listed:
Datsyuk (171st overall) <their team is all late picks.
Thornton (1st overall but aquired by trade)
Elias (51st overall)
Brodeur (20th overall)

Also for the Devils:
Zajac (20th)
Parise (17th)

LA:
Kopitar (11th overall)
Doughty was drafted high, but their other high picks (Schenn and Thomas Hickey weren't active)

Obviously picking in the top 3 makes it easier, but it is about getting elite players, not where you got em. Who knows, the Jets may have nabbed 5 in a row. There is nothing that says you win right away after drafting these players. The Oilers have been in the top 5 most of these years and they still suck.

EDIT

I wanna add...

I don't think there is any one way to build a team. I don't have any special answers either, but writing things off if they are progressing (even slowly) is something I can't get behind.

I am not deluded about what the Jets have, they are a couple impact players away from really mattering, but some of the pieces they have could really nicely compliment a couple stars.

One legit top line 70+ point centre can go a long way.

 

[sully1410]

It's easier to stay at the top than it is too get there. Once you are a good team, you usually have your top end guys (Sedin's, Datsyuk, Thornton/Marleau, Elias/Brodeur) in hand, then you can fill out with smart drafting, good depth, big bold moves even. It's way easier at the top. So let's just throw out those, we need to get there, is the brunt of the discussion.

Honestly, I think it was garret that did the analysis, but picks 6-15 don't tend to have that much difference in terms of success. My point is that it is very very hard to build a team with those picks. So 5 straight "top 10" picks is more a statement of problems, than it is of anything real. Teams get stuck there for a LONG LONG time (ie FLA, CLB, TOR, etc, etc), making it hard to move out of there.

I completely understand, nor would I be advocated a complete scorched earth Edmonton style. That does not serve, hell for all the talk I STILL don't think that team is going anywhere, they are very very poorly built for NHL hockey (dominate in shiny hockey though), it's just a mismanaged **** organization they have.

Good well built teams have done a "hit and run" and the bottom. Good teams tend to have 1-2 years in the complete tank (bottom 5) then do a quick turnaround back out of it. They don't always completely rely on those bottom picks either, but they do add some top end talent to go with solid drafting elsewhere. They do 1-2 years at the bottom, 1 AT MOST 2 sitting just outside playoffs, then 1-3 years as playoff fodder, before taking the step to Stanley Cup. Carolina did it. Anaheim did it. Pittsburgh did it. Chicago did it. Boston did it. Los Angeles did it. The key was they did not get stuck in the middle at the barely missing playoffs stage. Teams like Columbus, Florida, Toronto did, and they got nowhere.

Atlanta started the rebuild well. Kane and Bogosian were fine. Difference was the failed on all levels to rebuild the prospect pool elsewhere whether it be via trades (Esposito ) or through the second-seventh rounds. That is what is killing us now. That is the problem, even if our drafting/development is better, by the time the Jets guys begin to pay dividends it is far too late, unless we manage to start coming out of this now, so that guys like Lowry, Pasquale, Yuen, Olsen, etc will be stepping into complementary roles and proper roles cheaply to supplement the already established talent.




Yet how is the hell is that different than right now? Right now they must have a terrible supporting cast since they can't make playoffs as it is.

Edmonton's all out scorched earth was flawed from the start, no doubt on that account. I talked about it above, that's one organization I would never emulate, EVER.

But all the championship teams have followed a STRIKINGLY similar pattern since the cap has been brought in. That is what the ATL franchise tried to do, but they have failed, mostly due to depth and being just average with their picks, not great, to take that next step. Jets are in real danger of being stuck in medicrity if progress is not made NOW.

You are talking about most of our core being ~30 while taking the FIRST STEPS into playoff action. By the time we should be taking steps into Stanley Cup contention, we looking at a core around 30-33, not feasible. That's also when the young guys will be getting big raises, to go with all major players being UFA eligible...it'll never work, IMO. It's just too late at that point. They should already by a SC team. You don't just turn it around in your late twenties and go from missing playoffs to Stanley Cup contenders, you need to show the steps towards progress, or you become Toronto.

If serious progress into playoff fodder team is not made, it's time for a serious retooling. I am not talking selling the team, sucking for years and years for first overall picks, but clearly this group is not a winning group. I know it's only "year 2" of Winnipeg Jets hockey, but this group has been here and is not getting the job done. What moves need to be made? Not really sure, this core still has a little time to show they can be it. But not much, and the clock is ticking very very fast.

I am not happy with mediocrity. I want a Stanley Cup. If this team is far enough out of it by the deadline that they are considering selling Antropov and Hainsey, then Pavelec, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Little, hell even Kane and Burmistrov might be on the block, IMO. Not saying you sell all of them, but time for a retooling for sure.

I've said since day one when we got the team back, the Jets would have to start contending, and start contending soon. I in no way shape or form want this team to turn into Calgary and delude themselves that fighting for the eighth spot is success. Its not.

If they miss the playoffs this year, I for one am not content to just have the team back. i want the team to win. i want a stanley cup, like holden, and there comes a certain point in time where Chevy has got to make the hard decisions and make the big, bold moves in order to contend.

I'm not going to touch on coaching, but if the Jets miss the playoffs, I'd like to see someone else get a shot at it. The tools are now in place. Its not like this is a roster with big wide gaping holes in it anymore. This is a team that is running three stacked lines as well as a solid energy line. Our top four is decent, Hainsey could be upgraded, but he's still pretty good at what he does. I expect Stuart to do the same mentoring with Postma that he did with Bogo, and they'll split time with Clitsome who showed some serious promise last year. In a shortened season, injuries shouldn't be near the problem that they were last season(knock on wood).

There is no reason that they miss the playoffs this year.

Pavelec was one of my favourite players last season, but this year he needs to be better. He needs to steal more games. He needs to show his dedication to this time and his will to win to improve on his positioning and his overall health. He needs to be able to win on the road and in a few back to backs. His work load should be easier this year, but he still needs to be the goaltender of the future. If he can't be, then we need to move away from him, whether we trade him or buy him out or whatever.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

If the team can be improved by trade I am all for it and I am not happy with mediocrity either, but that isn't what we are talking about. The idea that you can only succeed by killing it with top picks (and that we know the Jets haven't done that yet) is a bit off to me.

While I agree that the draft is a crap shoot and I agree that it is harder when you pick later but high picks are not the only way to acquire talent.

Among the core players you listed:
Datsyuk (171st overall) <their team is all late picks.
Thornton (1st overall but aquired by trade)
Elias (51st overall)
Brodeur (20th overall)

Also for the Devils:
Zajac (20th)
Parise (17th)

LA:
Kopitar (11th overall)
Doughty was drafted high, but their other high picks (Schenn and Thomas Hickey weren't active)

Obviously picking in the top 3 makes it easier, but it is about getting elite players, not where you got em. Who knows, the Jets may have nabbed 5 in a row. There is nothing that says you win right away after drafting these players. The Oilers have been in the top 5 most of these years and they still suck.

So sit on mediocrity until we magically hit someone out of the park? Calgary style?

I have never said the only way is to get high picks. Beside the Jets went through their stage during the Bogosian Kane years.

My point is that they need to take steps forward or this core quite simply is NOT going to get them there. My exact point WAS that you don't become good right away. It's a process, one that the Jets have shown exactly ZERO progress in. Without progress you are not going to get to the next level. Sitting back waiting for some magical player or thing to happen to take that next step quite simply will not work, as has been proven time and time again. My point was that those teams have their stars...we don't. Maybe Kane, Burmistrov, Bogosian become them, which will push us to the next step with this core. But time is running out for this core together. Doesn't mean pieces are useless and we are hopeless, but if this group cannot progress clearly something is wrong.

This team did the first part. But they are getting very stagnant in the part two of a rebuild, the hardest part to progress from true, but get stuck much longer and you will have no chance. Players start to hit UFA, players start to need raises, talent coming through the system won't be timed appropriately (notice that many players drafted during Kings bad years 07-09 are just starting to pay dividends as they became contenders?), it just doesn't work out unless you continue to progress. The Jets so far have not shown that ability. This off-season was a fantastic step, but it needs to have real on ice results, and it needs to happen now. Waiting any longer only reduces the odds of this core moving on the the next step (playoff pushover) an immense amount, and makes the ultimate goal (Stanley Cup Contender) all but impossible.

 

[sully1410]

If the team can be improved by trade I am all for it and I am not happy with mediocrity either, but that isn't what we are talking about. The idea that you can only succeed by killing it with top picks (and that we know the Jets haven't done that yet) is a bit off to me.

While I agree that the draft is a crap shoot and I agree that it is harder when you pick later but high picks are not the only way to acquire talent.

Among the core players you listed:
Datsyuk (171st overall) <their team is all late picks.
Thornton (1st overall but aquired by trade)
Elias (51st overall)
Brodeur (20th overall)

Also for the Devils:
Zajac (20th)
Parise (17th)

LA:
Kopitar (11th overall)
Doughty was drafted high, but their other high picks (Schenn and Thomas Hickey weren't active)

Obviously picking in the top 3 makes it easier, but it is about getting elite players, not where you got em. Who knows, the Jets may have nabbed 5 in a row. There is nothing that says you win right away after drafting these players. The Oilers have been in the top 5 most of these years and they still suck.

Datsyuk and Elias were drafted in a day and age where russians were still obscure. Goalies rarely get drafted earlier then that, since that in itself is such a crap shoot. I'm pretty sure the Boston GM at the time of the Thorton trade had a stroke. Kopitar is 11th...well...its 11th. I'm not sure where he was projected to go at. Parise was drafted in a pretty deep year.

I do agree. there are other ways to go about obtaining talent. But holden's point still stands. The time to make the moves that are necessary to start competing are right now. Why waste time? What else are we waiting for?

 

[garret9]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an outside observer in this argument it seems like there is actually 2 arguments going on...

Party A is saying this core better not regress or it is a sign that this core as a whole will not be able to become perennial contenders
Party B is saying is saying I have faith in this core being able to make it


I see a slight difference there. One is arguing whether or not the core can make it, while the other is arguing when do you define failure and what steps are necessary if they don't make it

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an outside observer in this argument it seems like there is actually 2 arguments going on...

Party A is saying this core better not regress or it is a sign that this core as a whole will not be able to become perennial contenders
Party B is saying is saying I have faith in this core being able to make it


I see a slight difference there. One is arguing whether or not the core can make it, while the other is arguing when do you define failure and what steps are necessary if they don't make it

Pretty much I think. And I'm obviously party A here.

I define failure as not making playoffs this year (or being damn damn ultra close).

What steps, well we cross that bridge when we come to it, IMO.