So how do we look?

[Huffer]

Yet how is the hell is that different than right now? Right now they must have a terrible supporting cast since they can't make playoffs as it is.

I agree, that's why I asked what does it buy us if we drop one group to go with the next? That second group just ends up in the same position as the group before, no supporting cast. Why can't the team try to keep the Ladd core together and actually give them a chance? How is it totally indicative that they can not win it all when they haven't been given a team around them?

You are talking about most of our core being ~30 while taking the FIRST STEPS into playoff action. By the time we should be taking steps into Stanley Cup contention, we looking at a core around 30-33, not feasible. That's also when the young guys will be getting big raises, to go with all major players being UFA eligible...it'll never work, IMO. It's just too late at that point. They should already by a SC team. You don't just turn it around in your late twenties and go from missing playoffs to Stanley Cup contenders, you need to show the steps towards progress, or you become Toronto.

No, I was saying we could make the playoffs next year, (or even this year), and start being a SC contender when Ladd and Wheeler are 28, Little is 27, Enstrom is 30 and Buff is 29. Have the Canucks not been contenders with a core over 30? Detroit? All I am saying is that as an alternative option to get rid of the Ladd core if they can't be a SC contender this year scenario, is another scenario when the org keeps them for at least 3 years or so to see what the team can actually do when the guys behind that Ladd core are not glorified AHLrs.

If serious progress into playoff fodder team is not made, it's time for a serious retooling. I am not talking selling the team, sucking for years and years for first overall picks, but clearly this group is not a winning group. I know it's only "year 2" of Winnipeg Jets hockey, but this group has been here and is not getting the job done. What moves need to be made? Not really sure, this core still has a little time to show they can be it. But not much, and the clock is ticking very very fast.

I am not happy with mediocrity. I want a Stanley Cup. If this team is far enough out of it by the deadline that they are considering selling Antropov and Hainsey, then Pavelec, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Little, hell even Kane and Burmistrov might be on the block, IMO. Not saying you sell all of them, but time for a retooling for sure.

We will just have to agree to disagree on how long this group has had to show that they can do it, and what kind of support they have been given. Wheeler has been on the team for 1.5 years. Ladd and Buff have been around for 2 years. Doesn't seem like much time to me to decide that they can't get it done (especially with they help they get). Seems strange to think Kane and Burmistrov are part of the problem considering their age and roles so far. Of course if a trade makes the team better they should make it, but trading those guys (along with the Ladd core), seems like going backward to me.

By your last statement I'm not sure if you are advocating a "retooling" or a "rebuild" should the Jets not make the playoffs this year.

I can defiantly see the merits of retooling (deal away UFA's not going to return, see what the market is for a guy like Buff is if you think you have depth in the org, maybe see what the market is for a guy like Little if we have org depth, etc), but I just don't see the need for a fire-sale of Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Buff, and the youngsters, until we see what they can do when the org actually surrounds them with a decent supporting cast.

 

[Huffer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an outside observer in this argument it seems like there is actually 2 arguments going on...

Party A is saying this core better not regress or it is a sign that this core as a whole will not be able to become perennial contenders
Party B is saying is saying I have faith in this core being able to make it


I see a slight difference there. One is arguing whether or not the core can make it, while the other is arguing when do you define failure and what steps are necessary if they don't make it

I think I'm in the bolded camp.

How do you know if your core can't make it, if you haven't seen them with an adequate supporting cast?

I.E. The Kings have a great top 2 lines. If you gave them GST as their 3rd, and Mittens, Fehr, and Antro as their fourth, do they win the cup? Do they make the playoffs? How about replacing their depth D men who played great and replacing them with Stuart and Clitsome? If those changes are made and they miss the playoffs, is that really a true indication of their core?

 

[Conflicted Habs fan]

The Jets need another Selanne

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I agree, that's why I asked what does it buy us if we drop one group to go with the next? That second group just ends up in the same position as the group before, no supporting cast. Why can't the team try to keep the Ladd core together and actually give them a chance? How is it totally indicative that they can not win it all when they haven't been given a team around them?

Because quite simply at that point they are not getting the job done. Ladd and them were supposed to be the team with depth...and after the Ponikarovsky and Jokinen signings, it's clear that we are adding the depth to make the next step. How long can we possibly wait it out for these topped out players to step up and win some hockey games?

No, I was saying we could make the playoffs next year, (or even this year), and start being a SC contender when Ladd and Wheeler are 28, Little is 27, Enstrom is 30 and Buff is 29. Have the Canucks not been contenders with a core over 30? Detroit? All I am saying is that as an alternative option to get rid of the Ladd core if they can't be a SC contender this year scenario, is another scenario when the org keeps them for at least 3 years or so to see what the team can actually do when the guys behind that Ladd core are not glorified AHLrs.

Canucks did not start being a SC contender at those ages. The whole point of my post was that if the Jets **** the bed this year, MAYBE have next year, but already after this year we are looking at a FAR from ideal situation in building the team. I agree that this, OR at very very very worst next year this team has to be in playoffs. Standing still is just not an option. So that in that regard we agree, kinda.

We will just have to agree to disagree on how long this group has had to show that they can do it, and what kind of support they have been given. Wheeler has been on the team for 1.5 years. Ladd and Buff have been around for 2 years. Doesn't seem like much time to me to decide that they can't get it done (especially with they help they get). Seems strange to think Kane and Burmistrov are part of the problem considering their age and roles so far. Of course if a trade makes the team better they should make it, but trading those guys (along with the Ladd core), seems like going backward to me.

By your last statement I'm not sure if you are advocating a "retooling" or a "rebuild" should the Jets not make the playoffs this year.

I can defiantly see the merits of retooling (deal away UFA's not going to return, see what the market is for a guy like Buff is if you think you have depth in the org, maybe see what the market is for a guy like Little if we have org depth, etc), but I just don't see the need for a fire-sale of Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Buff, and the youngsters, until we see what they can do when the org actually surrounds them with a decent supporting cast.

Sometimes you have to go backward to go forward. Are people really expecting guys like Ladd, Little, Wheeler, Byfuglien, Enstrom are going to get any better than what we have seen so far? All are at their peaks right now. Each may have a career year here or there, but basically what you see is what you get. We can't keep waiting on the next group to suddenly blow us away, they'll always be another Scheifele, we need to start to see results now so that when Trouba/Scheifele start contributing it will be cheaply and at the right times...

Dealing away guys like Antropov and Hainsey are not going to solve the problems, if this team lays an egg this season. They will not bring back enough, it will just keep to spin those wheels in no man land (9-12 in the east). We have not seen any progress in this group in the past 3 years. Nothing. This would be a FOURTH straight season of spinning our wheels, getting nowhere. How long can that go on. Fifth straight? Oh but Scheifele and Trouba will solve all of our problems after that, surely!

I can't predict the future. I don't know what will happen. All I am saying is that if we end up spinning our wheels in no mans land, or even god forbid drop an egg at the bottom, it's time to start looking in new directions. I think many people here a little too attached to the current players, roster turnover is quite a bit higher than people think, IMO, and that we cannot get too attached to these particular group of guys.

My whole, and only point in this whole thing is that this team has no more time to spin it's wheel and continue on status quo. The time is now to take that first step. Clearly Chevy agrees with the Jokinen and Ponikarovsky signings. It's now or never to take that first step for this group. What will happen if that doesn't happen is anyone's guess, but ALL options must be evaluated at that time, including firesaling for another rebuild or completely retooling the core guys.

 

[surixon]

I agree, that's why I asked what does it buy us if we drop one group to go with the next? That second group just ends up in the same position as the group before, no supporting cast. Why can't the team try to keep the Ladd core together and actually give them a chance? How is it totally indicative that they can not win it all when they haven't been given a team around them?




No, I was saying we could make the playoffs next year, (or even this year), and start being a SC contender when Ladd and Wheeler are 28, Little is 27, Enstrom is 30 and Buff is 29. Have the Canucks not been contenders with a core over 30? Detroit? All I am saying is that as an alternative option to get rid of the Ladd core if they can't be a SC contender this year scenario, is another scenario when the org keeps them for at least 3 years or so to see what the team can actually do when the guys behind that Ladd core are not glorified AHLrs.



We will just have to agree to disagree on how long this group has had to show that they can do it, and what kind of support they have been given. Wheeler has been on the team for 1.5 years. Ladd and Buff have been around for 2 years. Doesn't seem like much time to me to decide that they can't get it done (especially with they help they get). Seems strange to think Kane and Burmistrov are part of the problem considering their age and roles so far. Of course if a trade makes the team better they should make it, but trading those guys (along with the Ladd core), seems like going backward to me.

By your last statement I'm not sure if you are advocating a "retooling" or a "rebuild" should the Jets not make the playoffs this year.

I can defiantly see the merits of retooling (deal away UFA's not going to return, see what the market is for a guy like Buff is if you think you have depth in the org, maybe see what the market is for a guy like Little if we have org depth, etc), but I just don't see the need for a fire-sale of Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Buff, and the youngsters, until we see what they can do when the org actually surrounds them with a decent supporting cast.

Excellent post and I agree with everything you said. In reality what exatly can we expect to get in a trade for the players mentioned that will be so different than what we have. The fact is that teams trading established players rarely get equal value back, sure we could do some two for one trades for better players but than we would have even less organizational depth.

Lets look at these players:

Wheeler has just broken out as a player and is now a legitimate first line RW with the potential to be a consistient top 10 RW in the league. Why would you trade him now and even if you did could we realistically get another Wheeler calibre player for him.

Ladd is what he is. He is an excellent second line LW who has a mountain of playoff and big game experience. He is a player who has been asked to punch above his weight the last few years and any shortcommings of the team don't lay at his feet but lay at the inability to ice a team that allows him to play his appropriate role. You don't trade grizzled playoff warriors like Ladd if you want to win in the postseason.

Little: Like Ladd is a real good two-way second line player that has been asked to shoulder more responsibility than what he is capable of. We don't have anyone who is currently able to replace what he brings to the roster and like Ladd is more valuable to the team than what he would return in a trade.

Enstrom: A legit top pairing defensmean on a good contract, you don't trade these guys away enough said.

Buff: The only guy I would trade because I think he hurts the team as much as he helps and also a guy I believe that would return more in a trade than what he is worth to us.


I think the problem steems in that we look at Ladd and Little as core guys when they arn't core players. They are excellent complimentary players and bring value to the team but we arn't going to get core players in a trade for them we also don't have guys that replace what they bring. We are in a bit of a tough spot right now we need to hope guys like Mark and Jacob can come in and take core spots which will allow the complimentary guys to excel in complimentary roles.

 

[truck]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an outside observer in this argument it seems like there is actually 2 arguments going on...

Party A is saying this core better not regress or it is a sign that this core as a whole will not be able to become perennial contenders
Party B is saying is saying I have faith in this core being able to make it


I see a slight difference there. One is arguing whether or not the core can make it, while the other is arguing when do you define failure and what steps are necessary if they don't make it

I am not really saying I have faith they will make it. I am saying it is too early to panic. There is more than one way to do things and TNSE has had the team for less than 2 years.

 

[Blackie Dammit]

We should have a Buff pool. You know, like a baby pool. Everyone take their best guess at how much he weighs when he arrives.

261, it will be interesting thats for sure. Good thing the Ice Caps have a few DMen in game shape.

Key will be a good start with no pre-season, how much ice time and how many games will Sheif see? One thing he has going for him is he has been playing at a high level for the last month.

The starters that have been playing elsewhere need to get going right away, the other guys that have not been playing games may not be at a high cardio level depending on how they pushed themselves during the lockout. They will need support for the first 3-5 games.

I'm looking forward to Wheeler continuing his rise to elite, Bogo getting healthy, Stuart bashing it up and blocking shots, Enstrom proving a point after an average season, Kane trade rumours, coach Noel post game pressers,screaming TRUE NORTH, and YWG's GDT's.

Cheers Boys,
It's gonna be a blast

 

[truck]

Excellent post and I agree with everything you said. In reality what exatly can we expect to get in a trade for the players mentioned that will be so different than what we have. The fact is that teams trading established players rarely get equal value back, sure we could do some two for one trades for better players but than we would have even less organizational depth.

Lets look at these players:

Wheeler has just broken out as a player and is now a legitimate first line RW with the potential to be a consistient top 10 RW in the league. Why would you trade him now and even if you did could we realistically get another Wheeler calibre player for him.

Ladd is what he is. He is an excellent second line LW who has a mountain of playoff and big game experience. He is a player who has been asked to punch above his weight the last few years and any shortcommings of the team don't lay at his feet but lay at the inability to ice a team that allows him to play his appropriate role. You don't trade grizzled playoff warriors like Ladd if you want to win in the postseason.

Little: Like Ladd is a real good two-way second line player that has been asked to shoulder more responsibility than what he is capable of. We don't have anyone who is currently able to replace what he brings to the roster and like Ladd is more valuable to the team than what he would return in a trade.

Enstrom: A legit top pairing defensmean on a good contract, you don't trade these guys away enough said.

Buff: The only guy I would trade because I think he hurts the team as much as he helps and also a guy I believe that would return more in a trade than what he is worth to us.


I think the problem steems in that we look at Ladd and Little as core guys when they arn't core players. They are excellent complimentary players and bring value to the team but we arn't going to get core players in a trade for them we also don't have guys that replace what they bring. We are in a bit of a tough spot right now we need to hope guys like Mark and Jacob can come in and take core spots which will allow the complimentary guys to excel in complimentary roles.

I agree with this.

 

[Jet]

I understand the sentiment, and agree somewhat (agree that at some point a team has to decide which way it is going - Hello Calgary!), but I don't know if I really agree with your premise that if the Jets are not a Cup contender this year that it's blow up the team time.

Are you saying that if the team is not a cup contender this year that you would want to deal Ladd, Little, Wheeler, Enstrom, Buff, and Pavelec? (I'm assuming that young guys like Kane, Burmi, Scheifele, and Bogo are part of the rebuild?).

IMO, that's a pretty youngish core to deal away. I would think an alternative strategy would be to keep all of the above, add another medium to large FA if possible (Zajac, etc), make the playoffs next year (2013-2014), and then be a contender when Kane, Burmi, and hopefully Scheifele are playing bigger roles, and Trouba is hopefully contributing a bit as well. At that stage (2014-2015), Ladd will be 28, Little 27, Wheeler 28, Enstrom 30, and Buff 29. That doesn't seem that old to me, and I would think you could give that group at least a year or two at that point with a supporting cast (Kane 23, Burmi 23, Bogo 24, Scheifele 21, Trouba 20, Lowry 21).

I'm thinking there must be a happy medium between Calgary's continued mediocrity (bad trades and signings helped), and Edmonton's scorched Earth plan.

I think it was Jet (apologies if it wasn't) that described being against the blow it up and start from scratch Edmonton model, as it caused the young guys to be surrounded by a terrible cast year after year. If we blew up the Ladd group to focus on the Scheifele group, would we have an adequate surrounding cast for them? Or would they fail as well because we wouldn't have the depth or talent overall to compete?

Good memory. It was me and I agree. I think we have a young enough core that we don't have to be too worried about winning right this second. What Holden is suggesting is definitely a successful way of building a champ but it's not the only way. I think we have a smart and dutiful management team that might be able to learn from teams like Detroit and NJ and build strong organizations that draft well and make shrewd player decisions. There are plenty of places to mine players. For instance, if Eric Fehr somehow comes back and scores 15 goals for the Jets this year that is an example of mining a player.

You need to feel like you are in a winning org as a player. You need to learn how to win. I also think taking time to cook your prospects is very important and that is proved out time and time again. That is why I don't think Scheifele should get a sniff this year.

 

[Huffer]

Because quite simply at that point they are not getting the job done. Ladd and them were supposed to be the team with depth...and after the Ponikarovsky and Jokinen signings, it's clear that we are adding the depth to make the next step. How long can we possibly wait it out for these topped out players to step up and win some hockey games?

Yeah, I hear what you are saying. But my point earlier is that this will be .5 of a season with Poni and Joki. I just don't want to make any generalizations of the group as a whole based on this next .5 season.

Canucks did not start being a SC contender at those ages. The whole point of my post was that if the Jets **** the bed this year, MAYBE have next year, but already after this year we are looking at a FAR from ideal situation in building the team. I agree that this, OR at very very very worst next year this team has to be in playoffs. Standing still is just not an option. So that in that regard we agree, kinda.

I agree that we want to keep moving forward. What I don't know is,
what's the best way to move forward? I don't think that there is a formula that says that if your're not winning by X date that you need to make Y moves.

Sometimes you have to go backward to go forward. Are people really expecting guys like Ladd, Little, Wheeler, Byfuglien, Enstrom are going to get any better than what we have seen so far? All are at their peaks right now. Each may have a career year here or there, but basically what you see is what you get. We can't keep waiting on the next group to suddenly blow us away, they'll always be another Scheifele, we need to start to see results now so that when Trouba/Scheifele start contributing it will be cheaply and at the right times...

I don't think that people expect the Ladd core to get better, I just want to see what that group can do with a supporting cast. So I think we might agree a little here. I just want to see the group improve this year as well, and then add possibly another FA to the mix next year along with improved play from Kane and Burmi, and eventually Scheifele, Trouba, and Lowry to the group to see what the whole group can do together before a decision is made on who fits and who doesn't.

Dealing away guys like Antropov and Hainsey are not going to solve the problems, if this team lays an egg this season. They will not bring back enough, it will just keep to spin those wheels in no man land (9-12 in the east). We have not seen any progress in this group in the past 3 years. Nothing. This would be a FOURTH straight season of spinning our wheels, getting nowhere. How long can that go on. Fifth straight? Oh but Scheifele and Trouba will solve all of our problems after that, surely!

I agree that the returns from Hainsey and Antropov deals won't solve our problems. I do disagree with your premise that this group has done nothing for 3 years with this possibly being the 4th. What makes up a group? Basically because the only guys in the core that have been here over 2 years is Little and Enstrom. Maybe Slater and Thorburn if you consider them core. It's not about the next guys fixing anything, I just want to see what adding the next guys to the current guys can do before we decide to ship out the current guys.

I can't predict the future. I don't know what will happen. All I am saying is that if we end up spinning our wheels in no mans land, or even god forbid drop an egg at the bottom, it's time to start looking in new directions. I think many people here a little too attached to the current players, roster turnover is quite a bit higher than people think, IMO, and that we cannot get too attached to these particular group of guys.

My whole, and only point in this whole thing is that this team has no more time to spin it's wheel and continue on status quo. The time is now to take that first step. Clearly Chevy agrees with the Jokinen and Ponikarovsky signings. It's now or never to take that first step for this group. What will happen if that doesn't happen is anyone's guess, but ALL options must be evaluated at that time, including firesaling for another rebuild or completely retooling the core guys.

I agree with you in regards to taking the next steps. I think the only area that I don't (and not saying you're wrong), is just in applying the "can't do it" tag to a group of guys before they are really given all the tools (adequate teammates) to compete for a playoff spot and SC.

God this is great to be talking about hockey and hockey management again!!

 

[truck]

It's not about the next guys fixing anything, I just want to see what adding the next guys to the current guys can do before we decide to ship out the current guys.

I agree with you in regards to taking the next steps. I think the only area that I don't (and not saying you're wrong), is just in applying the "can't do it" tag to a group of guys before they are really given all the tools (adequate teammates) to compete for a playoff spot and SC.

God this is great to be talking about hockey and hockey management again!!

I agree with this too.

Can't condemn Kane and Ladd for piss poor depth and bad goaltending.

 

[sipowicz]

Anyone else agree that JOKINEN was a pretty good pick up and should take some pressure off the other forwards.

Anyone know if Jones will vie for a D spot? Personally I think he still brings more than anyone in St. Johns.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

It took Noel almost 6 months last year to break the old Thrashers team and their ****** approach to system hockey. If they play the system they can be very successful they showed that in spurts last year. The problem is when they fall into fire wagon hockey, especially on the road.

 

[truck]

Anyone else agree that JOKINEN was a pretty good pick up and should take some pressure off the other forwards.

Anyone know if Jones will vie for a D spot? Personally I think he still brings more than anyone in St. Johns.

Jones who?

I quite liked the Olli signing. Centre was the Jets biggest need and he was the best available.

 

[Grind]

First off, it was me, the other garret,that did the draft analysis. And yes, picks 7-15 were pretty much the same (6 was high) return.

I get the issue. Some take the view that this team has 5 years to develope, but the more accurate assumption is we are more on year 3 or 4 of that plan already.

IMO the additions of Jokinen and ponikarovsky, plus if Kane and Bogo (maybe burmi too) take the "steps" forward, that should be what makes this team a playoff team (or damn close as HC said). If we do not take a step forward i agree that it might be best to look for something more somewhere else.

The only issue is with the short season, IMO, a team that WOULD have made/come very close to the playoffs in a full season might not, so you end up with a false negative. That's the only part where i have trouble and have to disagree, with the 48 game season i can't get behind a blow up if the team stumbles.

 

[sipowicz]

We should have a Buff pool. You know, like a baby pool. Everyone take their best guess at how much he weighs when he arrives.

Don't tell me there are already rumblings about his weight, thought maybe after last season the guy would maybe get it by now.

 

[Guerzy]

First off, it was me, the other garret,that did the draft analysis. And yes, picks 7-15 were pretty much the same (6 was high) return.

I get the issue. Some take the view that this team has 5 years to develope, but the more accurate assumption is we are more on year 3 or 4 of that plan already.

IMO the additions of Jokinen and ponikarovsky, plus if Kane and Bogo (maybe burmi too) take the "steps" forward, that should be what makes this team a playoff team (or damn close as HC said). If we do not take a step forward i agree that it might be best to look for something more somewhere else.

The only issue is with the short season, IMO, a team that WOULD have made/come very close to the playoffs in a full season might not, so you end up with a false negative. That's the only part where i have trouble and have to disagree, with the 48 game season i can't get behind a blow up if the team stumbles.

Excellent points as always, Grind.

I'm in the middle here. I certainly agree with Holden in that this team, led by its core, must take positive steps forward this season. Ideally that is making the playoffs. I really see no reason why this group cannot be a playoff team as the roster stands. If we're as up and down, as inconsistent as we were last season, thus showing as a group they did not learn or develop from prior experiences, it will be concerning to me.

I also agree with Huffer, and very much so. I don't think it will be time to blow this up if we don't make the playoffs. Last season was such a transition for the entire player personnel and organization with the move. I don't mean to throw stones here towards Atlanta, but I believe its important to remember where this group and core came from, not exactly the greatest track record. Noel and the coaching staff was trying constantly to break bad habits last season. Maybe this core is so entrenched in those poor habits as a group that they can never overcome them, and that would be an issue, and one I think Holden is quite concerned about, in which I agree.

I feel good about this core though, and the players we currently have. Do we have enough true firepower or jam upfront? I'm just not so sure. I still feel we need to acquire an elite or top flight forward of some sort. Preferably a horse of a center, Getzlaf would be perfect as a UFA this July. I don't think LA would have ever won last year had they not have acquired Richards/Carter. That put them over the top. But to LA's credit they made the steps forward prior to those moves by making the playoffs - we must do the same.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

First off, it was me, the other garret,that did the draft analysis. And yes, picks 7-15 were pretty much the same (6 was high) return.

I get the issue. Some take the view that this team has 5 years to develope, but the more accurate assumption is we are more on year 3 or 4 of that plan already.

IMO the additions of Jokinen and ponikarovsky, plus if Kane and Bogo (maybe burmi too) take the "steps" forward, that should be what makes this team a playoff team (or damn close as HC said). If we do not take a step forward i agree that it might be best to look for something more somewhere else.

The only issue is with the short season, IMO, a team that WOULD have made/come very close to the playoffs in a full season might not, so you end up with a false negative. That's the only part where i have trouble and have to disagree, with the 48 game season i can't get behind a blow up if the team stumbles.

Sorry grind, my bad.

Also, I disagree with this whole 48 game season thing making a difference. Somebody on the main board did an analysis of the 48 game schedule played in 94-95, and found that 14 of the 16 playoff teams were the exact same as 93-94, the only two teams that were different were teams that could be expected to develop and became powerhouses in later years (Quebec and Philadelphia). It will not make nearly as big a difference as people think, IMO.

 

[Grind]

Sorry grind, my bad.

Also, I disagree with this whole 48 game season thing making a difference. Somebody on the main board did an analysis of the 48 game schedule played in 94-95, and found that 14 of the 16 playoff teams were the exact same as 93-94, the only two teams that were different were teams that could be expected to develop and became powerhouses in later years (Quebec and Philadelphia). It will not make nearly as big a difference as people think, IMO.

Fair enough but i also don't see your backing (14 of the 16 previous years playoff teams) as strong evidence that it wasn't a factor- than can only be assumed if the rosters were the same or nearly identical to the year prior.

I think really, it mostly depends on your definition of "damn close". I think i'm just not quite as willing to go with a black and white view on this.

I for one am of the belief that luck IS a factor in some of this. And that if the expectation is that this team needs to be an 8th-6th seed team, realistically you have to consider a team within a certain degree of that expectation, which is exacerbated by the shortened season (Luck having a more direct impact). If the team is within 2-3 points of the playoffs in a shortened season, would you consider the team a failure? I think at that point i'd be willing to give it one more kick at the can.

 

[sully1410]

I don't advocate dismantling the core at this point, but I will say that if we don't see a different Jets team then we did on many nights last season...something will have to be done.

I think the idea that HC is trying to get across is that you can't build through the draft if your not drafting high, and if your going to do that, you do it for two seasons tops.

Now for part two.

How can anyone on this board say that Ladd is not a core part of this team? He is quite honestly the most underrated player in the NHL, he's the leader of this team, he truly is the personification of what we want this team to be. Responsible two way play that is hard to play against. He's like our own little Ryan Kesler. He's a team first guy and is an absolute warrior and never ever takes a shift, let alone a game, off.

How is that not part of this core? This team is MUCH less impressive without Andrew Ladd.

 

[Grind]

I don't advocate dismantling the core at this point, but I will say that if we don't see a different Jets team then we did on many nights last season...something will have to be done.

I think the idea that HC is trying to get across is that you can't build through the draft if your not drafting high, and if your going to do that, you do it for two seasons tops.

Now for part two.

How can anyone on this board say that Ladd is not a core part of this team? He is quite honestly the most underrated player in the NHL, he's the leader of this team, he truly is the personification of what we want this team to be. Responsible two way play that is hard to play against. He's like our own little Ryan Kesler. He's a team first guy and is an absolute warrior and never ever takes a shift, let alone a game, off.

How is that not part of this core? This team is MUCH less impressive without Andrew Ladd.

Ladd is part of the core, but you can't expect him to be anymore then he is now, same can be said for little(maybe), enstrom, and probably byfuglien. These are sort of the supporting cast of your core. Here's to hoping wheelers last season won't be his career season.

I think this is a playoff caliber team, provided Pavelec is league average or better.

If kane & bogo find the next level, we're a playoff caliber team regardless of pav.

In short, to me, this teams progression relies on Kane, Bogo, and Pavelec all pushing themselves into the next echelon of players. If all three of these players can become what we hope (65+ pt scoring winger, franchise d man, above average starter), then we are not only a playoff team, but one that can go deep.

It all comes down to Are Kane, Bogo, and Pavelec Actually difference makers? If not, we've got to get some, either by blowing up and tanking, or finagling some miracle trades.

 

[garret9]

IMHO we have currently:
5/6 top6 pieces
3/4 top4 pieces
And unproven goaltending

It's close. Our window is closing (but so is every wondow; just like everyone is dying the moment they are born) but I don't think it's closed yet

 

[HannuJ]

you have the following guys on their way up:

Kane
Wheeler
Bogosian
Pavelic

in a shortened season, if these guys take a step forward and, plugging in Ollie as a centre, you are looking at a 5-8 playoff seed.

everything's a toss-up in a shortened season. look at last year. 1 amazing month, 2 craptacular months. cut off 1 of those 3 months and you're either in the playoffs or drafting in the top 3.

 

[Mathil8]

IMHO we have currently:
5/6 top6 pieces
3/4 top4 pieces
And unproven goaltending

It's close. Our window is closing (but so is every wondow; just like everyone is dying the moment they are born) but I don't think it's closed yet

We are ?!?!?!

 

[truck]

VUKOTA thinks our Jets look like a fringe playoff team:

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1422