Confirmed with Link: [SJ/Buf] Evander Kane to Sharks for Dan O'Regan, Cndt'l 2019 1st, Cndt'l 2020 4th

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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The way I heard Hahn say it, if the Sharks are a lottery team, "it won't be that draft pick". I'm not sure if that means the 1st magically disappears altogether, or it's deferred to 2020. He didn't say.

Sorry I can't clear it up.

I don't have the info but I actually bet @KKurzNHL would know and could go way way inside to help us out.

I would be willing to bet though that if and only if the Sharks win a top-3 pick through the draft lottery, the pick goes to 2020.
 

The Nemesis

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Did you guys get a clear explanation on the lottery protection somewhere? As in simply SJS would need to win the draft lottery in 2019 to defer any 1st-round pick to 2020? Top-three protection? Top-ten protection? Top-fifteen protection? I thought tonight's broadcast said something in the third period like you'd have to win the lottery to defer, but not sure if that meant top-one or top-three lottery protection. No BUF scrum, print, or press release made it straight-forward that I saw yet.

What I understood from multiple readings of twitter, especially via Pierre LeBrun was:
Conditional 1st:
-2019 1st if Kane re-signs with the Sharks OR if the Sharks win the cup, regardless of what happens with Kane in the off-season.
or
-2019 2nd if Kane leaves via free agency, provided the Sharks don't win the cup (lottery protection is irrelevant here, so it wouldn't matter if they made or missed the playoffs in this scenario)
or
-2020 1st if Kane re-signs but the Sharks miss the playoffs (thus ending up in the lottery)

Conditional 4th:
-2019 4th in basically any sane scenario involving rational decision making.
or
-2020 3rd if Doug Wilson loses his mind and all sense of asset valuation and really wants to keep the 2019 4th (I have no idea why the team would choose to do that, unless they're sitting there in round 4 and there's some massive steal of a prospect staring them in the face on the draft board, but there it is)
 
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The Nemesis

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I don't have the info but I actually bet @KKurzNHL would know and could go way way inside to help us out.

I would be willing to bet though that if and only if the Sharks win a top-3 pick through the draft lottery, the pick goes to 2020.

From what I understand it's not top-3 protected, it's generally lottery protected. The trigger condition is simply being in the lottery or not (ie missing/making the playoffs)

The way I heard Hahn say it, if the Sharks are a lottery team, "it won't be that draft pick". I'm not sure if that means the 1st magically disappears altogether, or it's deferred to 2020. He didn't say.

Sorry I can't clear it up.

It would have to be deferred. I don't think you're allowed to have conditions that simply cause the trade asset to vanish off the table. Any chain of conditions has to end with the team getting something (though I suppose you could probably weasel something in using the old "future considerations" smoke & mirrors, but a team would have to be mighty stupid to agree to any trade stipulation that ends with them potentially walking away empty handed.
 
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Bizz

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Oct 17, 2007
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Conditional 1st:
-2019 1st if Kane re-signs with the Sharks OR if the Sharks win the cup, regardless of what happens with Kane in the off-season.

If the Sharks win the Cup and the condition is met anyways, DW should do everything in his power to keep Kane here. Might as well.
 

Icicle

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So individually is not what i was speaking to.

With jack eichel they are 52% FF 46% GF

Eichel without Kane 45%FF 50%GF

Primary culprit is sh% dropping to 6% from 11%

Kane away from eichel doesnt see much change.

When eichel is away from kane, shots go wayyyy down but hdgf are the same.

So there is a real case that he needs to be the guy on his line to succeed. He may not be good at meshing with high skill guys. I hope im wrong and he will likely produce.

Two teams and at least three sets of coaches have gone through the same thing. Like I've said in the past- every play dies on his stick, for better or for worse. He has no idea how to maintain a cycle at all. If he gets it behind the net it's either a wraparound or throwing the puck into the middle and hoping for the best. If he gets pressured in a corner he will attempt a cycle, but he's never learned how to do it properly and it's a turnover nearly every time. If he gets it anywhere else he's shooting, even if it's into shinpads at the tops of the circles-- which is why you need to make sure he never gets the puck up there and he stays down low.

You should take him off of your PP before you pull your hair out. What I explained above is exactly why his flaws are completely exposed on a PP unit.

He has to be the best player on his line. I don't get what someone was quoting earlier about him still producing away from Eichel-- he didn't at all. His shots aren't quality shots more often than not. He's the type of player where you have to throw out any Corsi related metric.

Anyway, put him into a position to succeed and given his contract year status, he could still be quite useful. I'd keep him off the ice when the game is on the line though, that's when his stupid penalties come out.
 

do0glas

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Two teams and at least three sets of coaches have gone through the same thing. Like I've said in the past- every play dies on his stick, for better or for worse. He has no idea how to maintain a cycle at all. If he gets it behind the net it's either a wraparound or throwing the puck into the middle and hoping for the best. If he gets pressured in a corner he will attempt a cycle, but he's never learned how to do it properly and it's a turnover nearly every time. If he gets it anywhere else he's shooting, even if it's into shinpads at the tops of the circles-- which is why you need to make sure he never gets the puck up there and he stays down low.

You should take him off of your PP before you pull your hair out. What I explained above is exactly why his flaws are completely exposed on a PP unit.

He has to be the best player on his line. I don't get what someone was quoting earlier about him still producing away from Eichel-- he didn't at all. His shots aren't quality shots more often than not. He's the type of player where you have to throw out any Corsi related metric.

Anyway, put him into a position to succeed and given his contract year status, he could still be quite useful. I'd keep him off the ice when the game is on the line though, that's when his stupid penalties come out.
Wait, youre kind of contradicting yourself.

On one hand you say he needs to be the best on his line, then you say he didnt produce away from eichel.

Some numbers suggest he lowers sh% for his line. Others suggest more goals were scored per 60 with eichel than without.
 

Icicle

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Wait, youre kind of contradicting yourself.

On one hand you say he needs to be the best on his line, then you say he didnt produce away from eichel.

Some numbers suggest he lowers sh% for his line. Others suggest more goals were scored per 60 with eichel than without.

5-6 points in 25 games without Eichel. 37 points in 39 games on his line. Eichel's production went up 30% when Kane was off his line back to his PPG level.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Saying the right things

(EK9 = Evander Kane compared to EK65 = Erik Karlsson)

EK9 is saying all the right things now that he's in SJ. "Enjoying city", "appreciative fans in welcome", "great to have Jumbo meet him at airport".

EK9 had a good showing last night, being physical, and assisting on two goals.


Let's see how things are in a couple of weeks. But for now, looks like a good acquisition.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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Conditional 4th:
-2019 4th in basically any sane scenario involving rational decision making.
or
-2020 3rd if Doug Wilson loses his mind and all sense of asset valuation and really wants to keep the 2019 4th (I have no idea why the team would choose to do that, unless they're sitting there in round 4 and there's some massive steal of a prospect staring them in the face on the draft board, but there it is)
knowing Doug and his tendency to trade away picks, Assuming the Sharks arent a lottery team they already dont have a 1st or 2nd. If Doug deals another pick or even 2 they might now have a pick until round 4.

Basically if DW doesnt wanna sit around with only 1 (or 0) top 140 selection or something like that i can him saying fuk it take our 3rd next year
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
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Conditional 4th:
-2019 4th in basically any sane scenario involving rational decision making.
or
-2020 3rd if Doug Wilson loses his mind and all sense of asset valuation and really wants to keep the 2019 4th (I have no idea why the team would choose to do that, unless they're sitting there in round 4 and there's some massive steal of a prospect staring them in the face on the draft board, but there it is)

DW loves "hamburger today for two next week" type moves.
 

Led Zappa

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Kane wrapped it around to Burns a couple times last night when behind the net. And if that's not his predilection, it soon will be. So this wrap around, up the middle or bust talk doesn't seem like a big deal. Maybe it was Buffalo's system that led to that.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Two teams and at least three sets of coaches have gone through the same thing. Like I've said in the past- every play dies on his stick, for better or for worse. He has no idea how to maintain a cycle at all. If he gets it behind the net it's either a wraparound or throwing the puck into the middle and hoping for the best. If he gets pressured in a corner he will attempt a cycle, but he's never learned how to do it properly and it's a turnover nearly every time. If he gets it anywhere else he's shooting, even if it's into shinpads at the tops of the circles-- which is why you need to make sure he never gets the puck up there and he stays down low.

You should take him off of your PP before you pull your hair out. What I explained above is exactly why his flaws are completely exposed on a PP unit.

He has to be the best player on his line. I don't get what someone was quoting earlier about him still producing away from Eichel-- he didn't at all. His shots aren't quality shots more often than not. He's the type of player where you have to throw out any Corsi related metric.

Anyway, put him into a position to succeed and given his contract year status, he could still be quite useful. I'd keep him off the ice when the game is on the line though, that's when his stupid penalties come out.

With one game under his belt, this issue didn't really creep up that much with Kane but I'm expecting it to as time goes on and it's just going to depend on who his teammates are. However, on the power play, his role won't be to cycle the puck as that's not what the Sharks really do. Kane will probably be the bumper on zone entry and then fling it around to the other side then head to the front of the net. The other guys like Hertl, Pavelski, Couture, and Burns then Thornton when he gets back will handle most of the puck work. The Sharks power play is essentially to find a good one-timer for Burns and go for rebounds or have Burns shoot for tips. Kane looks like he can play off of Pavs as a tipper which means he has some offensive vision so there's hope for him there. I understand a lot of the concerns but good players on bad teams who go to good teams tend to find another gear in the short term. I'm more concerned about signing him long term because of some of his bad habits but not between now and the end of the regular season. His playoff performance will be up in the air though due to inexperience.
 
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Herschel

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Looking at the PP and Kane's nose for the net it could be a good combination. Pavs, Hertl are both good at being right in front setting up the screen and looking for tips but an area the PP hasn't capitalize as much is converting the longer rebounds. Some of that is just puck luck but this is an area Kane seems to excel. He is good an putting himself into the ideal position to collect the rebound and unlike many of the other Sharks he has the quick release needed to capitalize on his chances.

I am going off memory but it seems like there are times where the puck comes out to anyone not named Couture and a delay in shooting allows the goalie to recover or else the player misses the net.
 

Icicle

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With one game under his belt, this issue didn't really creep up that much with Kane but I'm expecting it to as time goes on and it's just going to depend on who his teammates are. However, on the power play, his role won't be to cycle the puck as that's not what the Sharks really do. Kane will probably be the bumper on zone entry and then fling it around to the other side then head to the front of the net. The other guys like Hertl, Pavelski, Couture, and Burns then Thornton when he gets back will handle most of the puck work. The Sharks power play is essentially to find a good one-timer for Burns and go for rebounds or have Burns shoot for tips. Kane looks like he can play off of Pavs as a tipper which means he has some offensive vision so there's hope for him there. I understand a lot of the concerns but good players on bad teams who go to good teams tend to find another gear in the short term. I'm more concerned about signing him long term because of some of his bad habits but not between now and the end of the regular season. His playoff performance will be up in the air though due to inexperience.
Sure and he has potential in a different system for sure and I hope your coaches are smart enough to recognize how to use him. I just wanted to give the Buffalo run-down. Two different systems in Buffalo and Kane didn't gel in either. He would pot in rebounds on our PP2 too. If they puck ever got to his corner it was cleared out of the zone though, which is why he could never make PP1, and would also get kicked off PP2 half the time.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

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Two teams and at least three sets of coaches have gone through the same thing. Like I've said in the past- every play dies on his stick, for better or for worse. He has no idea how to maintain a cycle at all. If he gets it behind the net it's either a wraparound or throwing the puck into the middle and hoping for the best. If he gets pressured in a corner he will attempt a cycle, but he's never learned how to do it properly and it's a turnover nearly every time. If he gets it anywhere else he's shooting, even if it's into shinpads at the tops of the circles-- which is why you need to make sure he never gets the puck up there and he stays down low.

You should take him off of your PP before you pull your hair out. What I explained above is exactly why his flaws are completely exposed on a PP unit.

He has to be the best player on his line. I don't get what someone was quoting earlier about him still producing away from Eichel-- he didn't at all. His shots aren't quality shots more often than not. He's the type of player where you have to throw out any Corsi related metric.

Anyway, put him into a position to succeed and given his contract year status, he could still be quite useful. I'd keep him off the ice when the game is on the line though, that's when his stupid penalties come out.

Your observations regarding his shot quality and Corsi type metrics don't really match the stats. There is definitely truth to the idea that Corsi type stats aren't the be all end all and this applies to a player like Brent Burns whose Corsi is very strong but his High danger chances for % is below 50. This is because he takes a bunch of low danger shots and shot attempts and his dumbass defensive decisions lead to a bunch of high danger scoring chances against.

When it comes to Kane, it's a different case. He was by far the leader on your team in individual high danger chances for (at even strength) with 81; the next highest player was Sam Reinhart with 52. At even strength, when Kane was on the ice, the Buffalo Sabres had 50.97% of the shot attempts. They had 50.61% of the scoring chances for, and 53.68% (!) of the high danger chances for. In fact, at even strength, no Buffalo Sabre was on the ice for more high danger chances for in Buffalo's favor, even though he played about 100 less minutes than Marco Scandella and about 235 less than Rasmus Ristolainen. His individual expected goals for at even strength is near the top of the league.

Another thing, why do you think Eichel's production went up and Kane's went down as soon as Kane was taken off Eichel's line? How could Kane be dragging Eichel down if he had more points than Eichel in that time frame? Do you think his selfish style of play just led to Eichel not having as many chances to score? Do you know which game Kane went off Eichel's line?

When Eichel was without Kane, it wasn't just Corsi that went down. I get that stats like HDCF% are better for pure volume shooters but Eichel's CF% is 5% lower without Kane, FF% about 9% lower, SF% about 11% lower, SCF% 1% lower, and HDCF% about 7% lower.

One thing I noticed is that Eichel's on-ice shooting percentage without Kane is 11.11% and his on-ice shooting percentage with Kane is 6.57%. Do you think that might have something to do with why Eichel scored more once he left Kane's line? Maybe he just found his scoring touch, or maybe he just got a little more lucky, but the fact that there is a 4.5% difference in the Sabres' shooting percentage when Eichel is on the ice and Kane is/isn't tells me there is a bit of chance involved. I understand that by being a volume shooter, Kane is likely to decrease his team's on-ice shooting percentage, but considering the Kane+Eichel oiSH is 1% higher than Buffalo's without either of them, and considering that Kane without Eichel's oiSH% is 0.5% lower than Buffalo's without either player, I don't think it's Kane doing all of that. Looking at all of the on-ice shooting percentages, I think it's pretty clear that Eichel's without Kane is the outlier, even if Eichel is the most talented player on Buffalo.

At even strength, per 60 minutes, Kane with Eichel averaged 10 more shot attempts than Kane without Eichel, 13 more unblocked shot attempts, 13 more shots in goal, 2 more scoring chances, and 3 more high danger scoring chances, yet Eichel without Kane did average 0.3 more goals for per 60 mins. Do you really think the 0.3 more goals is a bigger indicator of future results than the far greater difference in every other offensive stat? Do you really think Eichel is better without Kane than he was with him?
 

Icicle

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Another thing, why do you think Eichel's production went up and Kane's went down as soon as Kane was taken off Eichel's line? How could Kane be dragging Eichel down if he had more points than Eichel in that time frame? Do you think his selfish style of play just led to Eichel not having as many chances to score? Do you know which game Kane went off Eichel's line?

Eichel had something like 95% primary points (goal or primary assist) 20 games into the season while he and Kane were together the entire time. He led the league in that statistic by like 30%. They didn't really split for good until game 40 or so.

One thing I noticed is that Eichel's on-ice shooting percentage without Kane is 11.11% and his on-ice shooting percentage with Kane is 6.57%. Do you think that might have something to do with why Eichel scored more once he left Kane's line? Maybe he just found his scoring touch, or maybe he just got a little more lucky, but the fact that there is a 4.5% difference in the Sabres' shooting percentage when Eichel is on the ice and Kane is/isn't tells me there is a bit of chance involved. I understand that by being a volume shooter, Kane is likely to decrease his team's on-ice shooting percentage, but considering the Kane+Eichel oiSH is 1% higher than Buffalo's without either of them, and considering that Kane without Eichel's oiSH% is 0.5% lower than Buffalo's without either player, I don't think it's Kane doing all of that. Looking at all of the on-ice shooting percentages, I think it's pretty clear that Eichel's without Kane is the outlier, even if Eichel is the most talented player on Buffalo.

Eichel shot more without Kane because every zone entry didn't die on Kane's stick. There was never a cycle that lasted through all 3 players on a line because Kane would end it with a shot or a turnover almost every time.

The rest of the Sabres is complete trash and you shouldn't forget that.

Kane was also never the best player on his line in Buffalo. If he wasn't with Eichel he was playing top match-ups with ROR.

If you get Kane against 3rd match-ups he will shine. I hope your team figures that out sooner rather than later.
 

Yatzhee

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Kane wrapped it around to Burns a couple times last night when behind the net. And if that's not his predilection, it soon will be. So this wrap around, up the middle or bust talk doesn't seem like a big deal. Maybe it was Buffalo's system that led to that.
Not so much Buffalo's system, it was the talent back up by the blue line that played large roles in both Kane and Eichel's decisions to either fire from wide angles in hopes of a rebound or going in, or trying to maintain possession down low to long.

I think some have a misconception about Buffalo's current roster, what you see in the standings, or when you watch the games, the team is really that bad. Its more than just missing chemistry, its the aging talent level of guys like Pominville, Moulson (while he was here) and the Okposo near death experience this summer. C9mbine that with Girgensons and Larsson, 4th liners playing 1st thru 3rd line minutes and you don't have to wonder why Kane, O'Reilly, Eichel and Reinhart are struggling to reach higher potential than where they have.

I am happy for Kane. Regardless of 1st rd pick or not, he deserves to play with competitive, talented team mates.
 
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Led Zappa

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Eichel had something like 95% primary points (goal or primary assist) 20 games into the season while he and Kane were together the entire time. He led the league in that statistic by like 30%. They didn't really split for good until game 40 or so.



Eichel shot more without Kane because every zone entry didn't die on Kane's stick. There was never a cycle that lasted through all 3 players on a line because Kane would end it with a shot or a turnover almost every time.

The rest of the Sabres is complete trash and you shouldn't forget that.

Kane was also never the best player on his line in Buffalo. If he wasn't with Eichel he was playing top match-ups with ROR.

If you get Kane against 3rd match-ups he will shine. I hope your team figures that out sooner rather than later.

Yeah, I'm gonna bet against this.
 

Jaleel619

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Cant wait to see what different line up combos Deboer goes with.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Like Couture said in the post game, first time in awhile we rolled 4 lines and when we do that we're usually winning. Kane gives us an edge in our line up that will exhaust a team throughout a game let alone a series having to play against 3 hard body karate power forwards every shift + Big body Fehr maintaining zone possession and being solid in the face off. If a well rested Thornton can come back 100% its the perfect storm. Line combos.. I just read Fehr can play RW too.

Hertl- Thornton- Lebanc
Meier-Couture- Boedker
Kane - Pavelski - Donskoi
Ward -Tierney - Fehr

Id really just like to see what kind of mismatches we can get out of that 3rd line if we can come up with a productive 1st/2nd line. With this line up it makes it real easy to manage ice time and roll 4 lines well.

There's a lot that I just don't like about those combinations. To get the most out of Thornton, you need to put shooters around him. Kane and Pavelski are the best wingers to put with him for that. As good as Pavelski's stint as a center has been, it's not good enough to keep him there when healthy nor do we have the type of talent to replace him on the wing nearly as effectively. Hertl I don't like there because he shouldn't be an off-puck second fiddle to Thornton when he is perfectly capable of adding a second line that will pin teams in their own end and wear them out. Labanc is also a guy that shouldn't play with Thornton with his skills. He's more of a playmaker than a shooter and the Couture-Hertl duo have done very well with him. That should continue. I also don't like that Tierney is demoted to the 4th line. Why would we demote him while he's having the year he's having? A 20 goal 3rd liner after being asked to step up his game and own that 3C spot does that and you relegate him to 4C? Kane on the 3rd line is pretty much the same thing. We didn't pay the assets we did to put him on the 3rd line. We rented Kane to get scoring out of him and putting him with Thornton is probably the best route to go there.
 

CanadienShark

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Dec 18, 2012
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What I understood from multiple readings of twitter, especially via Pierre LeBrun was:
Conditional 1st:
-2019 1st if Kane re-signs with the Sharks OR if the Sharks win the cup, regardless of what happens with Kane in the off-season.
or
-2019 2nd if Kane leaves via free agency, provided the Sharks don't win the cup (lottery protection is irrelevant here, so it wouldn't matter if they made or missed the playoffs in this scenario)
or
-2020 1st if Kane re-signs but the Sharks miss the playoffs (thus ending up in the lottery)

Conditional 4th:
-2019 4th in basically any sane scenario involving rational decision making.
or
-2020 3rd if Doug Wilson loses his mind and all sense of asset valuation and really wants to keep the 2019 4th (I have no idea why the team would choose to do that, unless they're sitting there in round 4 and there's some massive steal of a prospect staring them in the face on the draft board, but there it is)
Just to be clear for your three scenarios... The first one implies the Sharks make the playoffs, otherwise it goes to #3, correct?
 

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