LeBrun: Sharks & Karlsson ''on same page'' to try and get a trade done

[Empoleon8771]

On what planet does trading Jan Rutta at $2.75 million cost the Penguins a 1st when there have been numerous Jan Rutta contracts handed out to Jan Rutta caliber defensemen in the off-season?

In UFA this year alone, you'd have:

-Borgen: 2 years at $2.7 million AAV
-Dumoulin: 2 years at $3.15 million AAV
-Holl: 3 years at $3.4 million AAV
-Cole: 1 year at $3 million AAV
-Soucy: 3 years at $3.25 million AAV
-Miikola: 3 years at $2.5 million AAV
-Schenn: 3 years at $2.75 million AAV
-Clifton: 3 years at $3.33 million AAV

On what planet is it costing Rutta a 1st to move while nearly a third of teams are handing out the same exact contract to the same caliber of player as Rutta?

 

[Victor Z]

Sharks get Petry, Smith, Poulin and a 2025 conditional 1st

Petry agrees to waive his NTC to go to.... San Jose?

Poulin has any trade value at all at this point?

Very likely "no" to both of those.

The cap dump will have to be Granlund no matter how much the idiot Pittsburgh head coach likes Granlund in the totally unsuitable role (3rd liner with 70%+ d-zone starts, or whatever) in which he has placed him. If the idiot wants to acquire a shiny new toy, he's going to have to let go of his broken-down old toy.

Smith shouldn't be in the deal at all, Pierre-Olivier Turnstile should. Please take him, Grier.

 

[Maukkis]

What in the hell are you talking about

On what planet does trading Jan Rutta at $2.75 million cost the Penguins a 1st when there have been numerous Jan Rutta contracts handed out to Jan Rutta caliber defensemen in the off-season?

In UFA this year alone, you'd have:

-Borgen: 2 years at $2.7 million AAV
-Dumoulin: 2 years at $3.15 million AAV
-Holl: 3 years at $3.4 million AAV
-Cole: 1 year at $3 million AAV
-Soucy: 3 years at $3.25 million AAV
-Miikola: 3 years at $2.5 million AAV
-Schenn: 3 years at $2.75 million AAV
-Clifton: 3 years at $3.33 million AAV

On what planet is it costing Rutta a 1st to move while nearly a third of teams are handing out the same exact contract to the same caliber of player as Rutta?

You're late to the party, that's why. There have been some dogshit contracts handed out to the Ruttas of the league, you're right about that. But those teams made their mistakes already. They used their cap space on Rutta clones, they won't have that cap space now to take him off your hands. No demand.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Petry agrees to waive his NTC to go to.... San Jose?

Poulin has any trade value at all at this point?

Very likely "no" to both of those.

The cap dump will have to be Granlund no matter how much the idiot Pittsburgh head coach likes Granlund in the totally unsuitable role (3rd liner with 70%+ d-zone starts, or whatever) in which he has placed him. If the idiot wants to acquire a shiny new toy, he's going to have to let go of his broken-down old toy.

Smith shouldn't be in the deal at all, Pierre-Olivier Turnstile should. Please take him, Grier.

Petry doesn't have a full NTC so he can't block every single trade available. It's entirely possible that he does have San Jose on his NTC, but no one knows that for sure.

You're late to the party, that's why. There have been some dogshit contracts handed out to the Ruttas of the league, you're right about that. But those teams made their mistakes already. They used their cap space on Rutta clones, they won't have that cap space now to take him off your hands. No demand.

Or maybe, another thought, is that your evaluation of Rutta is just comically wrong and players like Rutta are valued around the league.

The idea that Rutta with 2 years at $2.75 million AAV and only $5 million in real dollars would cost a 1st to get rid of is just stupidity. Sorry, it's nothing but that. Just pure idiocy. There isn't even a single example of a trade like that in NHL history.

 

[ItWasJustified]

I think that as long as we get valuable assets and don't take back a bad contract longer than Karlsson's it will be a win for us. Getting a true blue chip prospect or unprotected 1st won't happen. But a mid to late 1st and B prospect coming back along with a short term cap dump would be a win.

It should be a win as long as Karlsson is off the Sharks roster. He won't be there when they're ready to compete, and as long as he's there he'll just prolong the rebuild further.

 

[Maukkis]

Or maybe, another thought, is that your evaluation of Rutta is just comically wrong and players like Rutta are valued around the league.

The idea that Rutta with 2 years at $2.75 million AAV and only $5 million in real dollars would cost a 1st to get rid of is just stupidity. Sorry, it's nothing but that. Just pure idiocy.

They are valued, mainly whenever there is excess cap space available (=July 1st) and when teams need depth the most (=the trade deadline, rentals). Otherwise, bleh. Looking at Rutta's stat line from last year, the numbers just scream a cap problem - and that he is.

Nobody has cap space for anyone of your cap problems (irrespective of their on-ice talent), and the few teams who have aren't going to take them off your hands on the cheap. You either get it or you don't.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They are valued, mainly whenever there is excess cap space available (=July 1st) and when teams need depth the most (=the trade deadline, rentals). Otherwise, bleh. Looking at Rutta's stat line from last year, the numbers just scream a cap problem - and that he is.

Nobody has cap space for anyone of your cap problems (irrespective of their on-ice talent), and the few teams who have aren't going to take them off your hands on the cheap. You either get it or you don't.

So Rutta was valued 2 weeks ago but somehow isn't valued now? Yeah, okay sure.

Either way, Anaheim is $7 million below the cap ceiling with 4 defenseman under contract. I really doubt that they'd have an issue trading a 7th rounder for Rutta to fill out their roster.

Calling Rutta a "cap problem" and judging him based on his stat line just proves you're talking out of your ass here. He's a shot blocking DFD, no crap he's not going to be putting up a lot of points.

Please name a single example of a defenseman on par with Rutta costing a 1st to get rid of. You're claiming "you either get it or you don't" while providing no evidence that your baseless claims are at all realistic. Give an example of a trade like that.

 

[Zirakzigil]

You're late to the party, that's why. There have been some dogshit contracts handed out to the Ruttas of the league, you're right about that. But those teams made their mistakes already. They used their cap space on Rutta clones, they won't have that cap space now to take him off your hands. No demand.

Forget about the party, youve missed the boat. Pens are very happy with Rutta.

 

[Maukkis]

So Rutta was valued 2 weeks ago but somehow isn't valued now? Yeah, okay sure.

Either way, Anaheim is $7 million below the cap ceiling with 4 defenseman under contract. I really doubt that they'd have an issue trading a 7th rounder for Rutta to fill out their roster.

What did many teams have then that they don't have any longer? More cap space! This shouldn't be a problematic concept to get the grasp of.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What did many teams have then that they don't have any longer? More cap space! This shouldn't be a problematic concept to get the grasp of.

Over half of the league has enough cap space to take on Rutta today.

You're making up a scenario where players have value or don't have value based on a 2 week span. The problem here is you making up a dumb scenario to justify your dumb claim.

 

[Maukkis]

Over half of the league has enough cap space to take on Rutta today.

You're making up a scenario where players have value or don't have value based on a 2 week span. The problem here is you making up a dumb scenario to justify your dumb claim.

Feel free to provide a list of them that would take on a #7D making 2.75 a year.

As I said, you either get it or you don't. Looks like it's the latter.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What's hilarious about the "Rutta would cost a 1st to move because teams don't have cap space anymore" claim is that there was an extremely comparable defenseman to Rutta who was traded well into the off-season and didn't cost a 1st to move literally last off-season:

Confirmed Trade: - [ANA/MIN] Dmitry Kulikov for future considerations

forums.hfboards.com

 

[KrisLetAngry]

If the Penguins had to dump Rutta to become cap repliant it would be future considerations or lower cap coming back.

Rutta is perfectly paid for what he brings to our roster. Signed an extremely fair deal for us.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Feel free to provide a list of them that would take on a #7D making 2.75 a year.

As I said, you either get it or you don't. Looks like it's the latter.

Calling Rutta a "#7D making $2.75 million a year" is just showing you're downright clueless about what you're talking about.

Again, Kulikov was traded literally last off-season for future considerations while the Wild were in the same cap situation as the Penguins. And according to that thread, most fans were expecting Kulikov to bring back more than that.

 

[thehoffs]

Edmonton fanbois?
This sucks for the Sharks
Just stop.

Really it’s the best the sharks can expect.

What are you thinking some team is going to throw top 10 picks or A level prospects at you?

Nobody’s fault San Jose was dumb enough to not protect the pick they gave to acquire Karlsson.

Teams aren’t making the same mistakes anymore unless the player was a 26 year old Karlsson.

As is any team acquiring him may get a single good season. Maybe two average seasons or it’s possible he could revert back to what we saw a couple years ago.

Either way what was San Jose thinking? Burns was already a Top5 puck moving D. Why would you acquire another at a price that was literally insane.

Nurse + 1St or maybe Bourgault is a good deal.

 

[NotOpie]

The teams interested now aren’t going to lose interest in September.

By September, rosters will be set, salary money will be spent. It will be much more difficult to manipulate personnel and cap space then. If it doesn't get done this Summer, I'd guess next Summer would be the next window for a trade of EK....and that sounds like it's fine to Sharks' HF fans.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

SJS were something like even w/ EK at 5v5, and -56 w/o him. You seriously don't think that translates to some points gained here and there?

The results? No. Better odds in the drawing itself? Yeah, absolutely, I'm not sure how the latter can be refuted.

Of course it translates to some points here and there but that change with Karlsson out of the lineup at the trade deadline doesn't mean that they'd have Bedard by doing so. Removing Karlsson at the trade deadline probably puts the Sharks in last place. Last place still didn't end up with Bedard. And the Sharks may still have taken Smith at 2 knowing their management and while I think there's a big enough difference between Smith and either Carlsson or Fantilli, I don't think the Sharks do so it may not have changed anything for them specifically.

I’m going to bet that IF… and that is totally an IF at this point, EK is traded, that Sharks fans are going to hate the return.

Hardly going out on a limb there. Most fans of teams don't like any trade moving out a star player and don't know the assets coming back. People hated the Meier trade though it was very likely the smartest thing they could've done for the situation they are in. Doesn't exactly make any sort of coherent point though. With Karlsson's NMC and high cap hit that they will retain down to a manageable number, I expect two first round pick level assets from a playoff team and then whatever else needed to get the deal done. Everyone has their preferences on who they'd want or what they're willing to give up. Doesn't really mean anything until we have something done. But this particular response of yours doesn't really acknowledge the point made to you. Making some huge deal about the 11.5 mil cap figure when that's not what the acquiring team will have as Karlsson's cap figure when they get him is just making meaningless noise because it misses the point of the trade entirely.

Really it’s the best the sharks can expect.

What are you thinking some team is going to throw top 10 picks or A level prospects at you?

Nobody’s fault San Jose was dumb enough to not protect the pick they gave to acquire Karlsson.

Teams aren’t making the same mistakes anymore unless the player was a 26 year old Karlsson.

As is any team acquiring him may get a single good season. Maybe two average seasons or it’s possible he could revert back to what we saw a couple years ago.

Either way what was San Jose thinking? Burns was already a Top5 puck moving D. Why would you acquire another at a price that was literally insane.

Nurse + 1St or maybe Bourgault is a good deal.

Nurse in any deal to San Jose just shows you're not thinking any of this through.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Of course it translates to some points here and there but that change with Karlsson out of the lineup at the trade deadline doesn't mean that they'd have Bedard by doing so. Removing Karlsson at the trade deadline probably puts the Sharks in last place. Last place still didn't end up with Bedard. And the Sharks may still have taken Smith at 2 knowing their management and while I think there's a big enough difference between Smith and either Carlsson or Fantilli, I don't think the Sharks do so it may not have changed anything for them specifically.

Hardly going out on a limb there. Most fans of teams don't like any trade moving out a star player and don't know the assets coming back. People hated the Meier trade though it was very likely the smartest thing they could've done for the situation they are in. Doesn't exactly make any sort of coherent point though. With Karlsson's NMC and high cap hit that they will retain down to a manageable number, I expect two first round pick level assets from a playoff team and then whatever else needed to get the deal done. Everyone has their preferences on who they'd want or what they're willing to give up. Doesn't really mean anything until we have something done. But this particular response of yours doesn't really acknowledge the point made to you. Making some huge deal about the 11.5 mil cap figure when that's not what the acquiring team will have as Karlsson's cap figure when they get him is just making meaningless noise because it misses the point of the trade entirely.


Nurse in any deal to San Jose just shows you're not thinking any of this through.

You are having a hard time comprehending what the real value to San Jose is in any EK trade….. removing 4 years of about 8-9.5 million of his cap hit for 4 years. That is THE value to San Jose. Even if they have to take back that 8-9 mil in cap dumps for a year or 2, the rebuild is expedited by getting EK off the books. You may expect 2 first round level assets in return…. There is a very low chance that happens…. For a multitude of reason that have been discussed ad nauseam. If you expect 1 first round level asset, you are much closer. The point has already been made so many times, you just don’t like to hear the truth. Every year you hold EK it’s prolonging the rebuild. Getting a first and clearing 8-9 million in cap space in a year or two is a is an absolute win in this scenario.

 

[Pavelski2112]

You are having a hard time comprehending what the real value to San Jose is in any EK trade….. removing 4 years of about 8-9.5 million of his cap hit for 4 years. That is THE value to San Jose. Even if they have to take back that 8-9 mil in cap dumps for a year or 2, the rebuild is expedited by getting EK off the books. You may expect 2 first round level assets in return…. There is a very low chance that happens…. For a multitude of reason that have been discussed ad nauseam. If you expect 1 first round level asset, you are much closer. The point has already been made so many times, you just don’t like to hear the truth. Every year you hold EK it’s prolonging the rebuild. Getting a first and clearing 8-9 million in cap space in a year or two is a is an absolute win in this scenario.

The only way the rebuild is expedited by getting EK off the books is that him leaving makes us worse and therefore gets us better picks.

The Sharks don't need the cap space for the next 4 years. They will still be bad.

 

[seroes]

You are having a hard time comprehending what the real value to San Jose is in any EK trade….. removing 4 years of about 8-9.5 million of his cap hit for 4 years. That is THE value to San Jose. Even if they have to take back that 8-9 mil in cap dumps for a year or 2, the rebuild is expedited by getting EK off the books. You may expect 2 first round level assets in return…. There is a very low chance that happens…. For a multitude of reason that have been discussed ad nauseam. If you expect 1 first round level asset, you are much closer. The point has already been made so many times, you just don’t like to hear the truth. Every year you hold EK it’s prolonging the rebuild. Getting a first and clearing 8-9 million in cap space in a year or two is a is an absolute win in this scenario.

Optimistically it will be 3 years before San Jose is competitive again. Likely longer than that. Nurse is too old to help the next core and that contract goes for way too long for San Jose to consider it. Nurse was bad deal when signed and 7 more years of it is atrocious. Retention and/or a 1 or 2 year dump would be acceptable but not that.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Optimistically it will be 3 years before San Jose is competitive again. Likely longer than that. Nurse is too old to help the next core and that contract goes for way too long for San Jose to consider it. Nurse was bad deal when signed and 7 more years of it is atrocious. Retention and/or a 1 or 2 year dump would be acceptable but not that.

I never said anything about taking a long contract back. 1 or 2 year dumps. For example guys like Petry (who isn’t a cap dump, but necessary to make the money work) has 2 years left. A player like him…. Or a similar contract from Carolina.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You are having a hard time comprehending what the real value to San Jose is in any EK trade….. removing 4 years of about 8-9.5 million of his cap hit for 4 years. That is THE value to San Jose. Even if they have to take back that 8-9 mil in cap dumps for a year or 2, the rebuild is expedited by getting EK off the books. You may expect 2 first round level assets in return…. There is a very low chance that happens…. For a multitude of reason that have been discussed ad nauseam. If you expect 1 first round level asset, you are much closer. The point has already been made so many times, you just don’t like to hear the truth. Every year you hold EK it’s prolonging the rebuild. Getting a first and clearing 8-9 million in cap space in a year or two is a is an absolute win in this scenario.

Not really. You just don't know what you're talking about. Removing the cap hit for whatever timeframe you want to talk about only means something if you actually put forth something that shows that value to be anything. The reality is that even if the Sharks trade Karlsson to remove that cap hit for all of the four years, it doesn't mean that they'll get any sort of value out of that. They won't. They're not in a position where they will have to pay anyone that sort of cap. They're clearly very bad even with him playing at an unsustainable level. You're just trying to make a case for the Sharks to take a lowball offer. Even Meier with his contractual issues still returned a 1st, a second pick that can be a 1st, and a prospect that is pretty close to a 1st round pick level asset in Mukhamadullin. Now, I'm not expecting the Sharks to get an identical return for Karlsson since his NMC lowers his value to a degree but not to the degree of just the Sharks taking whatever deal is out there and a single 1st. That's not anything resembling the truth. It's your subjective opinion that everyone has and you're not special in that regard. EK65 on the Sharks does not prolong the rebuild and clearing that cap space doesn't mean anything when there's nothing for the Sharks to actually spend that space on that they can't do through other means.

No, the issue here is that you have trouble comprehending that in order for the Sharks to make a trade of this nature, you actually have to address what the Sharks want to accomplish with such a trade or you can kick rocks. One playoff team's 1st round pick isn't going to be enough here especially if you're asking the Sharks to eat a lot of dead money by retaining and taking dumps. You don't just get that shit for free.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Not really. You just don't know what you're talking about. Removing the cap hit for whatever timeframe you want to talk about only means something if you actually put forth something that shows that value to be anything. The reality is that even if the Sharks trade Karlsson to remove that cap hit for all of the four years, it doesn't mean that they'll get any sort of value out of that. They won't. They're not in a position where they will have to pay anyone that sort of cap. They're clearly very bad even with him playing at an unsustainable level. You're just trying to make a case for the Sharks to take a lowball offer. Even Meier with his contractual issues still returned a 1st, a second pick that can be a 1st, and a prospect that is pretty close to a 1st round pick level asset in Mukhamadullin. Now, I'm not expecting the Sharks to get an identical return for Karlsson since his NMC lowers his value to a degree but not to the degree of just the Sharks taking whatever deal is out there and a single 1st. That's not anything resembling the truth. It's your subjective opinion that everyone has and you're not special in that regard. EK65 on the Sharks does not prolong the rebuild and clearing that cap space doesn't mean anything when there's nothing for the Sharks to actually spend that space on that they can't do through other means.

No, the issue here is that you have trouble comprehending that in order for the Sharks to make a trade of this nature, you actually have to address what the Sharks want to accomplish with such a trade or you can kick rocks. One playoff team's 1st round pick isn't going to be enough here especially if you're asking the Sharks to eat a lot of dead money by retaining and taking dumps. You don't just get that shit for free.

Ok …. Then we happily move on without him.

Let’s discuss facts
1) Very few teams teams were interested in acquiring EK

2) Even fewer team are in a position to take on his cap hit, even after retention

3) On Top of 1 & 2, EK has total control to say where he wants to go if he gets moved…. Winnipeg can offer you 10 first round picks for EK, but if he says no, it doesn’t matter.

4) SJ and EK were on the same page that “both are better off moving on”.

5) For most teams EK is not a need….. he is a nice to have. The Pens have a legitimate #1D in Letang. EK would have more value to us if he were a 100 point LW with size. Thus, not making the trade doesn’t leave us without a 1D so kicking rocks in this case isn’t the end of the world.

6) not taking what you can get that is reasonable (a 1st and B prospect) and holding EK because “you don’t have to trade him and we have all control” would waste any chance he had of winning or what he perceives as a chance. Basically it’s holding him hostage. Now, if you get the reputation of being an organization that holds its stars hostage, how many star players are going to want to sign there as a FA, or extend there after being a trade deadline rental.

So, those are the facts. If you still don’t get it, and Grier thinks like you, we will gladly kick rocks and move on.

 

[Mafoofoo]

I’m sure EK will feel terrible about not being traded as he collects his $11.5 million paycheck for being made to live in the Bay Area

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

Ship has sailed boys and girls.