Sens Arena in Lebreton Flats

[Nac Mac Feegle]

There are a lot of suburbanites in Ottawa, though.

It's an uncomfortable topic, and it sucks, but the "wants to drive everywhere and scoffs at public transportation" population in Ottawa might outnumber the opposing side of that argument.

Make public transportation worth using, and people will use it.

This is really where the city and OC need to up their game. Better service, better park & rides on the east & west ends (probably south too), and no worries about drivers suddenly going on strike in the dead of winter.....that would be a good start.

 

[starling]

Main reason I want the arena in DT is because it will inevitably take public transportation in this city to the new level to be able to serve it.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Make public transportation worth using, and people will use it.

This is really where the city and OC need to up their game. Better service, better park & rides on the east & west ends (probably south too), and no worries about drivers suddenly going on strike in the dead of winter.....that would be a good start.

The only reason I oppose the switch to light rail is that I think the amount they're investing into Phase 1 alone would have been more than enough for a phenomenal bus rapid transit system that could span the entire city - Kanata to Orleans, and down to the airport and Barrhaven.

I'm confident that $2.1 billion could have built the tunnel, new high-capacity buses (perhaps like these), grade separations where needed (since those things couldn't safely mingle with regular traffic), new technology to keep the lanes snow-free in winter, and enclosed/heated stations, and a new batch of transit law enforcement people.

Ultimately I think the LRT plan will work, but that's the kind of system that would get people on board.

 

[Sens Rule]

Make public transportation worth using, and people will use it.

This is really where the city and OC need to up their game. Better service, better park & rides on the east & west ends (probably south too), and no worries about drivers suddenly going on strike in the dead of winter.....that would be a good start.

This will never work. I use public transportation. It will never work in Ottawa because in order for public transportation to be "worth using" it needs to be a zillion times better. You need to have a huge city core for people who have cars to give them up. Like NYC or Montreal or Toronto.

It would never make sense for there to be that level of public transit in Ottawa. It is just to spread out and too small of a total population.

I kinda think this light rail is going to fail badly because the only people that use public transit that actually have cars they could drive instead are mostly civil servants that work at Tunney's or downtown. Express Bus's utterly rock, especially from the West End. Walk outside and go 100-200 metres and their is an express bus stop somewhere andit comes ever 12-15 mins for a 3 hour window morning and evening to return. When there is light rail you won't get the same time from door to door. You will have circular routes through the suburbs to bring you to one of a couple light rail hubs. If you drive there it will be a zoo to park. You need like almost as much parking for the CTC at every big hub or it is kinda pointless as you won't have people take the train if they aren't guranteed parking.

The express bus system is so effective in getting you into the city from every side street i can't see a train being faster if you need to switch during the commute.

I don't want light rail to fail. But I kind of believe it will. You would be making it more difficult and complicated commute for the people that use public transit the most by choice.

By definition light rail means far fewer hubs. All those buses driving through centretown stop ever 2nd block. There will be 3,4,5 train stops over several KM. We don't have an underground city in Ottawa. Walking an extra couple of blocks everyday in the rain or winter will not please that many commuters.

The city needed to go big and make 3 times the length of track and numbers of stops. But there is no money for that. All the train systems proposed make transit no better.

Lots of people want to feel that this system will be better and attract more users but that is mostly pie in the sky field of dreams thinking. If you build it.... They will come... Unless they have cars... Then they probably won't.

 

[Fandlauer]

In fairness public transit in Ottawa absolutely sucks. I don't blame people for being apprehensive. For years in order for me to bus from Stittsville to Kanata I had to get bussed to Bayshore then transfer back to Kanata. Absolute stupidity. Hopefully if Ottawa makes public transportation more user friendly people will embrace it.

 

[Knave]

I kind of feel like they wouldn't have expanded Light Rail if it was a failed experiment....

I've taken morning commutes in the O-Train before (and transitway before the O-Train) and it gets packed. People will use it. People will come. It's just a fact.

 

[Sens Rule]

I kind of feel like they wouldn't have expanded Light Rail if it was a failed experiment....

I've taken morning commutes in the O-Train before (and transitway before the O-Train) and it gets packed. People will use it. People will come. It's just a fact.

It is a fact people will use it regardless. Commuters who bus to work by choice are all that matters. For light rail to be "successful" you need to increase the percentage of those commuting on public transit by choice by some significant number.

My guess is this light rail system being built will not do this. It will probably increase it by a couple of percent or possibly not at all. It could even slightly decrease the number of users. Also you need to operate less buses. I do not think this system will end up doing that by nearly as much as is proposed.

If they cheap out on feeder routes to train station hubs... Which is kind of inevitable... It could see a decrease in users by choice, while not even lowering the fuel and operating costs much for public transit.

The current plan needs to be a lot better to increase ridership by people with the choice of using their cars to justify the expense of it all. In my opinion. I very much hope I am wrong and public transit gets much better. I just don't see it.

 

[Knave]

What an idiotic barometer for success.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

What an idiotic barometer for success.

Not really. Many traffic advisors say that the key to a proper traffic infrastructure is making light rail/bus travel convenient enough so that supersedes the need to use your car. That, in turn, reduces congestion on the highways and thoroughfares.

 

[alfie follower]

In fairness public transit in Ottawa absolutely sucks. I don't blame people for being apprehensive. For years in order for me to bus from Stittsville to Kanata I had to get bussed to Bayshore then transfer back to Kanata. Absolute stupidity. Hopefully if Ottawa makes public transportation more user friendly people will embrace it.

Stittsville to Bayshore to Kanata.... sorry dude but that brought an actual LOL

 

[SilverSeven]

This will never work. I use public transportation. It will never work in Ottawa because in order for public transportation to be "worth using" it needs to be a zillion times better. You need to have a huge city core for people who have cars to give them up. Like NYC or Montreal or Toronto.

It would never make sense for there to be that level of public transit in Ottawa. It is just to spread out and too small of a total population.

I kinda think this light rail is going to fail badly because the only people that use public transit that actually have cars they could drive instead are mostly civil servants that work at Tunney's or downtown. Express Bus's utterly rock, especially from the West End. Walk outside and go 100-200 metres and their is an express bus stop somewhere andit comes ever 12-15 mins for a 3 hour window morning and evening to return. When there is light rail you won't get the same time from door to door. You will have circular routes through the suburbs to bring you to one of a couple light rail hubs. If you drive there it will be a zoo to park. You need like almost as much parking for the CTC at every big hub or it is kinda pointless as you won't have people take the train if they aren't guranteed parking.

The express bus system is so effective in getting you into the city from every side street i can't see a train being faster if you need to switch during the commute.

I don't want light rail to fail. But I kind of believe it will. You would be making it more difficult and complicated commute for the people that use public transit the most by choice.

By definition light rail means far fewer hubs. All those buses driving through centretown stop ever 2nd block. There will be 3,4,5 train stops over several KM. We don't have an underground city in Ottawa. Walking an extra couple of blocks everyday in the rain or winter will not please that many commuters.

The city needed to go big and make 3 times the length of track and numbers of stops. But there is no money for that. All the train systems proposed make transit no better.

Lots of people want to feel that this system will be better and attract more users but that is mostly pie in the sky field of dreams thinking. If you build it.... They will come... Unless they have cars... Then they probably won't.

Except Ottawa has higher transit usage than any city in NA not named Toronto, Montreal or NYC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#/media/File:NorthAmericanPublicTransport.png

Transit is MASSIVELY popular in Ottawa. The arena wont suffer because of it, just like TD place hasnt. And this will be WAYYYYY more accessible than TD.

 

[edx]

One thing about a Lebreton rink, is that I expect a huge number of bars and restaurants-- downtown, on Preston, and out along Wellington/Richmond--would offer shuttle vans to the game if you eat there. Unlike the current location they should be able to do round trips in under half an hour (much of that negotiating traffic near the rink to do the drop off), and would be close enough to hope people may stay to drink after the game in some cases. Yes there are places that do this now, but it would be enough cheaper, and more practical, that I expect you'd see a lot more of it.

Which helps add a private sector aspect to the 'public transit', and also help diffuse the parking. (OK, from Preston people might just walk to the rink, but parking on Preston already is terrible, so that part won't help as much).

 

[Do Make Say Think]

In fairness public transit in Ottawa absolutely sucks. I don't blame people for being apprehensive. For years in order for me to bus from Stittsville to Kanata I had to get bussed to Bayshore then transfer back to Kanata. Absolute stupidity. Hopefully if Ottawa makes public transportation more user friendly people will embrace it.

Ottawa public transport is fine

You can pretty much get anywhere you need to: it isn't the most effecient way to get from A to B but that's not the point of public transport

The transitway is pretty amazing when you think about it

 

[Sens Rule]

Ottawa public transport is fine

You can pretty much get anywhere you need to: it isn't the most effecient way to get from A to B but that's not the point of public transport

The transitway is pretty amazing when you think about it

Ottawa is a cold weather city. The very expensive current system with covered glass offers exactly zero inside stations now. Not even Rideau Centre. Zero.

Take transit in November-March and have fun freezing your butt off. This is a massive difference from in Toronto or Montreal. You can actually use public transit in those cities in the winter and not be exposed to the inevitable wind and -20 temperatures.

I realize that an actual underground and inside stations would be extremely expensive.

I also think public transit in Ottawa from suburbs to downtown is rather good. From anywhere besides outside to downtown it is poor. In the West and East rush hour bus is good. South it is average.

Busing within a suburb is garbage. I can walk to CTC on gameday more reliably them bus there faster. And I live on Eagleson... The complete opposite side of Kanata East-West. Busing from Kanata to barrhaven is ridiculous. Busing Ottawa to hull is awful.

Realistically Ottawa is a poorly designed city for the most effective public transit. I don't even think LTR is that bad. Or the current transit. The fact is in Ottawa we have over 80% car ownership and the only useful commute by bus if you own a car that public transit makes better is suburb to Tunney's and right downtown. No where else.

There are so many other factors. A massive greenbelt and all the growth being outside the outer greenbelt.

It is what it is. I guess my point is saying that the visions of public transit being so much better with rail is just optimism. Thinking that suburbanites that never bus will want to do it to go to Lebretton for an arena there is wrong headed. A few will... Most will not. Lebretton has that against it. People like cars. At least Kanata is on the Queensway. More people will definitely use transit to get to the arena at Lebretton. Now maybe 8-12 % use transit to get to CTC. That is optimistic numbers. There will never be more then 25-30% taking transit to lebretton. Being downtownish you could see lots of people parking in public parking and walking 2 km to the game. Lebretton could work but it is not like it would ever be like Montreal or Toronto. It can't be.

 

[FuriousSenator]

There are a lot of suburbanites in Ottawa, though.

It's an uncomfortable topic, and it sucks, but the "wants to drive everywhere and scoffs at public transportation" population in Ottawa might outnumber the opposing side of that argument.

People need to be broken out of this cars first mindset. First step is to concentrate important stuff in places tough to reach by cars.

Cars are polluting, space wasting, inefficient and overall awful for a city.

If you want a sustainable Ottawa, this is the direction we HAVE to go. Period.

 

[Sens Rule]

People need to be broken out of this cars first mindset. First step is to concentrate important stuff in places tough to reach by cars.

Cars are polluting, space wasting, inefficient and overall awful for a city.

If you want a sustainable Ottawa, this is the direction we HAVE to go. Period.

A sustainable Ottawa should not be done that way. A sustainable Ottawa bans any development outside of the outer Greenbelt... And develops high rises in the inner Greenbelt around transit Hubs and single family homes in the outer greenbelt not outside of it. That of course goes against the "environmentalists" wanting to have a massive greenbelt. Keep a third of the greenbelts undeveloped and stop building homes 25-30 kmfrom downtown?

But it won't happen. Just plain making it difficult to drive is wrongheaded and defeats Ottawa being a nice city to live in for the majority of it's resident's.

You don't force public transit. You make it good. Population forces strong use of public transit. Like having 4-15 million people in a city like in Montreal, Toronto, London, NYC. Artificially making traffic awful when it does not need to be is silly and wrongheaded and frankly stupid. But it is offered as a strategy by some in Ottawa.

What needs to be done is government control of what is developed. That won't happen. Developers win in court vs governments and the NCC is completely against reasonable development of high density housing in either greenbelt. We get urban spread no matter what the next 10-30 years. We get a spread east, west and south with big farmers fields no one uses in far more central areas undeveloped as we consume more high quality farmlands not protected in the greenbelt farther from the centre.

 

[danishh]

one thing that's disappointed me about city planning over the past decade has been the suburbanization of various federal govt jobs, be it rcmp in barrhaven, dnd to the old nortel campus, or even csis moving to their new spy palace in gloucester.

Given the high proportion of jobs in the PS, if the feds had shown a commitment to keeping jobs downtown it would've gone a long way towards boosting public transit usage. Imagine if they built a campus of office towers at the oak st complex (adjacent to gladstone o-train and walking distance from bayview) instead of the current plan which is apparently to sell it off to developers?

There is still hope with the future redevelopment of the booth st campus, and i think tunney's is getting more office space soon. Hopefully the next government is proactive in this respect.

 

[Sens Rule]

one thing that's disappointed me about city planning over the past decade has been the suburbanization of various federal govt jobs, be it rcmp in barrhaven, dnd to the old nortel campus, or even csis moving to their new spy palace in gloucester.

Given the high proportion of jobs in the PS, if the feds had shown a commitment to keeping jobs downtown it would've gone a long way towards boosting public transit usage. Imagine if they built a campus of office towers at the oak st complex (adjacent to gladstone o-train and walking distance from bayview) instead of the current plan which is apparently to sell it off to developers?

There is still hope with the future redevelopment of the booth st campus, and i think tunney's is getting more office space soon. Hopefully the next government is proactive in this respect.

I totally disagree because the government is wisely using office/business space that already exists. You let the Nortel and JDS campus sit empty and you get the start of a Detroit. You see businesses and retail/restaurants failing in bells Corners with Nortel's failing. You get it renewed with a new mega long term tenent in the government. Plus parking, high density streets/highways all already exist for these developments.

I would agree with you if all the infrastructure did not already exist. But it does. And it is wise for the government to be tenents. For private business... Retail... A d even traffic. You get lots of traffic the opposite way at peak times. Makes sense versus everyone going downtown.

Edit:

Providing good public transit to locations outside of just Tunney's and downtown is the challenge the city needs to face.

Also public servants in Ottawa hate going to work in Quebec because there us no food union of STO and OC Transpo and an awful bridge situation. Both should be improved for those working in downtown Hull and especially Gatineau.

We have too many goverments. 5. 5 governments to deal with. Moving things to existing empty infrastructure is an extremely wise move at this point.

We probably need an overriding government like DC to control a lot of things in the Gatineau/Ottawa area. To override the lower governments on bridges, highways, public transit, the greenbelt. Control development on 5,10,25,50 year plans. Likely won't happen ever with it being constitutional and a Federal/Provincial thing.

I mean transports have to turn onto Rideau Street at the heart of downtown. That is the biggest dumbest thing going on in Ottawa/Gatineau. We need more bridges. Aylmer to bells/corners 416 is so obvious as to be ridiculous.

 

[danishh]

while I see that argument, expecting those buildings to stay empty seems presumptuous. The market would've responded with lower office space rates and ottawa could've attracted more jobs to the region.


and yeah, the downtown truck problem is stupid. various nimby groups have blocked any viable proposal for years. I expect the tunnel option to win out eventually because there will be no mobilization against it, despite the costs being ridiculous.

on the OC/STO question, a new PoW bridge would go a long way. If they replace it with a 2-way bus bridge, STO could run all their downtown routes and their rapibus to bayview. Getting 5 governments to agree on funding for a new bridge sounds like a decade-long nightmare though.

 

[Sens Rule]

while I see that argument, expecting those buildings to stay empty seems presumptuous. The market would've responded with lower office space rates and ottawa could've attracted more jobs to the region.


and yeah, the downtown truck problem is stupid. various nimby groups have blocked any viable proposal for years. I expect the tunnel option to win out eventually because there will be no mobilization against it, despite the costs being ridiculous.

on the OC/STO question, a new PoW bridge would go a long way. If they replace it with a 2-way bus bridge, STO could run all their downtown routes and their rapibus to bayview. Getting 5 governments to agree on funding for a new bridge sounds like a decade-long nightmare though.

The JDS building is just a big building. It might have got a new tenent. The Nortel Complex is so massive. Without The gov't as a tenent it could have really not seen a reasonable tenant for years or ever.

At one point at it's peak in the late 90's early 00's Nortel employed more people in Ottawa then the Fed gov't. (Maybe that is a myth but I heard it often)... Not all at that complex... But that complex is ridiculous. It is another Tunney's. I frequent Bells Corners. Once there are large numbers of people there Bells Corners vacancies will dwindle and there are so many now.

Ottawa is an amazing city to have weathered the collapse of it's, by far, largest private business going bankrupt. The fact Nortel's collapse is not a bigger deal now says alot about the private businesses in the city.

 

[jason2020]

one thing that's disappointed me about city planning over the past decade has been the suburbanization of various federal govt jobs, be it rcmp in barrhaven, dnd to the old nortel campus, or even csis moving to their new spy palace in gloucester.

Given the high proportion of jobs in the PS, if the feds had shown a commitment to keeping jobs downtown it would've gone a long way towards boosting public transit usage. Imagine if they built a campus of office towers at the oak st complex (adjacent to gladstone o-train and walking distance from bayview) instead of the current plan which is apparently to sell it off to developers?

There is still hope with the future redevelopment of the booth st campus, and i think tunney's is getting more office space soon. Hopefully the next government is proactive in this respect.

There was talk of a major new federal complex in the core but because of certain people in the core that project is all but dead and the feds are looking at moving more jobs out to the burbs.

 

[BonkTastic]

... because of certain people in the core that project is all but dead...

This one sentence aptly describes the majority of the last 25 years of development in Ottawa's core, from Westboro to the Canal, and from the Ottawa River to Billings Bridge.

 

[jason2020]

This one sentence aptly describes the majority of the last 25 years of development in Ottawa's core, from Westboro to the Canal, and from the Ottawa River to Billings Bridge.

People that don't want development in the core don't seem to understand if we keep building like crazy in places like Barrheaven/Kanata traffic is going to be 100 times worse in the next 10-15 years.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

A sustainable Ottawa should not be done that way. A sustainable Ottawa bans any development outside of the outer Greenbelt... And develops high rises in the inner Greenbelt around transit Hubs and single family homes in the outer greenbelt not outside of it. That of course goes against the "environmentalists" wanting to have a massive greenbelt. Keep a third of the greenbelts undeveloped and stop building homes 25-30 kmfrom downtown?

But it won't happen. Just plain making it difficult to drive is wrongheaded and defeats Ottawa being a nice city to live in for the majority of it's resident's.

You don't force public transit. You make it good. Population forces strong use of public transit. Like having 4-15 million people in a city like in Montreal, Toronto, London, NYC. Artificially making traffic awful when it does not need to be is silly and wrongheaded and frankly stupid. But it is offered as a strategy by some in Ottawa.

What needs to be done is government control of what is developed. That won't happen. Developers win in court vs governments and the NCC is completely against reasonable development of high density housing in either greenbelt. We get urban spread no matter what the next 10-30 years. We get a spread east, west and south with big farmers fields no one uses in far more central areas undeveloped as we consume more high quality farmlands not protected in the greenbelt farther from the centre.

That's not going to happen. Ottawa has a long-standing ordinance limiting the height of buildings int he downtown core. There will never be any buildings that will rival the height of the Peace Tower anywhere downtown. Ever. It's all about the site-lines of the city...the further away from the hill, the higher you can build.

 

[jason2020]

That's not going to happen. Ottawa has a long-standing ordinance limiting the height of buildings int he downtown core. There will never be any buildings that will rival the height of the Peace Tower anywhere downtown. Ever. It's all about the site-lines of the city...the further away from the hill, the higher you can build.

There are only certain parts of downtown the height limit applies in term of the Peace Tower.