SEMIN: Unjust victim of a systematic process of intimidation, manipulation, and scape

[What the Faulk]

Ruutu was dealt for a stab at a youngish player and a 3rd round pick (after the apocalypse, granted) while Jokinen returned a conditional later round pick to a team who doesn't really care about the 4th round. I'm just saying, they can't afford to give Semin away for nothing, or worse, bribe someone to take him and then watch him go back to being a PPG player as an opponent. He is not playing that poorly.

 

[SunDin]

Am I the only one who thought Semin looked like one of our best players on the ice after maybe Skinner, when paired with Skinner?
He had one assist, and was one inner post to goal line away from 1+1 that match. pre his last injury.

Was surpriced to see that line split up, Staal was invisible but I really wanted to see more of the Skinner/Semin combo.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I still think you might be missing my point WTF. It's not about how poorly he is playing or whether or not he can be successful elsewhere. What I am saying, is that IF Semin won't/can't play the style the coaches want (again, speculation) or do what they are asking, and if the team ends up concluding that there is no way he will, then that is an untenable situation. You can't have a single player, no matter how talented not towing the line if you want to be successful. IMO, it's worse to keep that player on the roster than it is to let him go, even if it is for nothing and even if he does become productive elsewhere. I don't care if it's Alex Semin, Eric Staal, Andrej Sekera, etc... There have been a lot of players that didn't fit in on a team, or didn't care to play for a team, or didn't mesh with the coach, etc, in all sports that the team ended up parting ways with because it was better for the organization, even if said player went on to be productive elsewhere.

I'm not saying Peters and his "system" are right, in fact, it may be a failure in the long run, but that's really irrelevant. He's going to be the coach for at least a couple of years so it's up to the players to do what he is asking. If it fails, it's on him.

As I stated earlier, I don't think it will get to this as it is just a "what-if" taking it to the last resort scenario for discussion sake. I really do expect things will get worked out, Semin will turn it around and the team will be better off for it. At least I hope so. To me it's pretty obvious the Canes would prefer to keep him and have him come around. If you are really wanting to rid yourself of a high priced player, you don't scratch him / state in the press that he's not doing what you ask. That just lowers any possible trade value/options. The only reason you do that is to hopefully change the behavior of the player.

 

[Stickpucker]

I think Juice would have looked good in Peter's system.

 

[What the Faulk]

Let's assume a very realistic hypothetical that no one does want him except in a Jokinen or Ward type "package", so they're stuck. I think at some point you have to adapt your "system" a bit to meet the player half way. I think part of coaching is to get the most out of your players and not throw your hands up after such a short time period and say "I can't do this".

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I think that just sends a mixed message. What does he tell the other players on the roster that apparently have no issue playing the system? "Sorry, Semin makes a lot of money and has an unmovable contract, so we'll have to play his way."

Better to have the majority of the roster on board and work a bit with one or two players than have half the roster playing one way and half the roster playing the other.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Let's assume a very realistic hypothetical that no one does want him except in a Jokinen or Ward type "package", so they're stuck. I think at some point you have to adapt your "system" a bit to meet the player half way.

I guess that depends on how much adapting is needed. Since we don't have all the details, it's easy to say adapt it to a player and meet half way. On the flipside, adapting for 1 player who can't/won't play the style you are requesting is a bit of a slippery slope.

I think part of coaching is to get the most out of your players and not throw your hands up after such a short time period and say "I can't do this".

Only partially. It's more about getting the most out of your TEAM (as a whole). Sure, individual achievement and development many times go hand in hand with that, but not at the expense of the team and team identity. This isn't an individual sport and part of being a team player is doing what is best for the team and what your coaches ask of you.

Again, I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, but if Semin really isn't willing to play the way the coaches want him to, the blame is on him, not the coaches IMO. If he simply isn't capable of playing that way (which I find hard to believe), then the team either needs to adapt or move him. I really hope it doesn't come to that as this team lacks talent to begin with and having Semin rowing in the same direction as everyone else would make this team so much better.

 

[sheriff bart]

Having Semin rowing in any direction would be a start.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I think that the Canes system isn't built for players like Semin or Skinner. They are skilled players who won't go hard to the net or play a dump and chase game.

Remember that Sasha hails from Russia, where kids are taught controlled zone entries. Semin plays a defunct style of hockey. The Red Army team played a puck possession game, and they would rewind in the neutral zone if they could not gain the zone quickly. This style of hockey relies on puck control and quick passing, which is what Semin is renowned for.

It's like using a Ferrari on a bumpy mountain road. Kuznetsov is facing the same problem, adapting to a North American game.

Prior to now, Semin always had coaches that would favour puck possession. Now he has to adapt, because every other player bought in Peters system. Being 6'2" 210 lbs, he should be able to win more puck battles along the boards.

Here's a little video that illustrates what I mean when I talk about Russian hockey. Enjoy

 

[rocky7]

as has been said by some, we don't know for sure what's going on, only what the media and so-called insiders are pitching. so we speculate and most on this board are even handed and fair in their assessments and opinions.

we all know what took place last year with all of them so we waited for this season and so far this all has taken place for whatever reason. in reality, it's been 20 games, 14 for Semin. he isn't the first high end, high paid player to slump, struggle, etc., whatever. and he won't be the last but because it's Semin, we have all kinds of idiots coming out of the woodwork again to crap on the guy, saying "I told you so". for some reason they enjoy this stuff.

the main narrative now is that he won't do what the coach is asking him to do. that is one explanation that is difficult to believe. him, one guy on the team, why?
I find it really hard to believe that he is sitting there pouting with his lip sticking out and his arms crossed, or his fingers in his ears going "blah, blah, blah, I can't hear you". it just doesn't make sense.

edit: ^Ots28 I agree with much of what you are saying. I think Lindholm comes the closest to being a player that could possibly compliment Semin on this team. Semin won't ever be a grinder.

 

[Ole Gil]

I think that the Canes system isn't built for players like Semin or Skinner. They are skilled players who won't go hard to the net or play a dump and chase game.

Jeff Skinner has no place in that conversation. The kid is fearless and always driving the net. To the point where we want him to not do it so much, because he's taken too many big hits. Skinner plays offense exactly how we wish Semin would. If only Jeff had Alex's passing ability.

 

[Ole Gil]

the main narrative now is that he won't do what the coach is asking him to do. that is one explanation that is difficult to believe. him, one guy on the team, why?
I find it really hard to believe that he is sitting there pouting with his lip sticking out and his arms crossed, or his fingers in his ears going "blah, blah, blah, I can't hear you". it just doesn't make sense.

Maybe the I told you so people were right? Nobody wants that to be the case, but maybe Alex is a stubborn coach killer type player who does what he wants.

Not that that is what's happening, but it's a possibility.

 

[What the Faulk]

Maybe the I told you so people were right? Nobody wants that to be the case,

Sometimes I do wonder how accurate that second sentence is around here. And that goes for more than just Semin.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Sometimes I do wonder how accurate that second sentence is around here. And that goes for more than just Semin.

Bingo.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I prefer to think that everyone wants the team to win first, be right second.

 

[Ole Gil]

I prefer to think that everyone wants the team to win first, be right second.

Yeah, when I said it, I was thinking of the subset of people who I think are not just trolling about on here.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Yeah, when I said it, I was thinking of the subset of people who I think are not just trolling about on here.

And I don't even think being "right" is a component for most - it's more about trusting the coach and GM over one player who apparently won't play the way they want him to. Alex Semin hasn't earned the right to go off on his own and do his own thing. He's not that good. I believe that as part of the rebuilding process, the team is trying to establish a certain culture. Adapting the game plan just for Semin probably isn't a part of that culture, so adapt or be gone. I hope he adapts, I do. But based on what I've seen so far, it's not looking good.

 

[rocky7]

wtf is a "coach killer" anyway besides a media construct. if what I'm thinking it 'would' be if it were a thing at all, Semin would be the last guy that would have any power to have any effect on a coach's tenure.

 

[wastedtime]

Where did the idea that Bill Peters wants a grinding, dump and chase system come from? He said from the get-go he wants to play puck possession like the Wings.

Now, imo, we don't have the talent on defense to be able to do it, but that doesn't mean Peters doesn't want to.

 

[RodTheBawd]

As much as I've bought into Peters, you still need to find a place for the players you have (other than the press box). Obviously I'm not a coach, but I would think a team with very little diversity in their lines would be pretty easy to game plan against. Put Semin on the 4th, develop a style for that line that might be drastically different than what you want from your other lines. That would be a nightmare for opposing coaches.

I've also never really understood the idea (which may not be real) that you reward guys with PP time due to their play at ES. Semin's game is perfect for any PP. If you want to sit him the entire game, go for it, but roll him out on the PP.

There's just something that doesn't add up with the whole situation. All signs point to locker room issues because if it was just his play, there's ways to utilize him and maximize what little ice time you might give him without sending "mixed signals" to the rest of the guys.

Where did the idea that Bill Peters wants a grinding, dump and chase system come from? He said from the get-go he wants to play puck possession like the Wings.

Now, imo, we don't have the talent on defense to be able to do it, but that doesn't mean Peters doesn't want to.

Yeah I'm not too sure what onetimesniper is talking about. There isn't much in that post regarding the Canes style of play that makes much sense (to me at least).

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Jeff Skinner has no place in that conversation. The kid is fearless and always driving the net. To the point where we want him to not do it so much, because he's taken too many big hits. Skinner plays offense exactly how we wish Semin would. If only Jeff had Alex's passing ability.

He gets hammered all the time. His skill set and size does not allow him to play like Eric Staal. He plays much better when he's on the outside, and that's totally fine. Playing dump and chase and along the boards is devastating for players like Skinner or Semin.

What I meant about the Canes style of play is that they aren't a puck possession team right now. Riley Nash is the perfect example of this. They get past the red line, dump it in softly in the corner, battle for it, and just try to go to the net. Elias Lindholm and Skinner play a much smarter game to me, and I think that's exactly what Peters wants in the long run. You just can't compare the Canes to the Red Wings.

 

[bleedgreen]

After watching this team live for the first time since last year, I can honestly say they right now are more of a puck possession team than I've ever seen them in the past. It's a notable change. My buddy I went to the game with is a red wings fan and he noticed it too. We both notices the canes lack the horses to turn the possession into consistent offense, but the foundation is being put in place. Nestrasil excelled at this. I wonder if he'll lose that as he gets used to us a bit when everyone he's sliding the puck to is repeatedly a step behind wherever a Detroit guy would be.

Skinner is fearless to the net, I wish he'd be a bit more like p Kane and find the open spaces better, while being more comfortable staying in them without having to just attack the d. Kane will have a long career because of his general ability to avoid traffic. He drives the net when it's there.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

He gets hammered all the time. His skill set and size does not allow him to play like Eric Staal. He plays much better when he's on the outside, and that's totally fine.

I disagree with the notion that he plays much better on the outside. He's so effective when he's around the net and going hard to the net. He has a knack for being able to read where a loose puck will end up and capitalizing in it. Unfortunately, being in those areas are what puts him at risk also so it's a catch 22.

Look at his goal chart from last year for instance and look at his prime scoring areas. The vast majority of his goals are from the hash marks in.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/i...3.1&r1eventType='GOAL'&r1type=1&r1strength=#5

Semin on the other hand probably has the same amount from the hash marks out last year as he does from the has marks in last year.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/i...013.1&r1eventType='GOAL'&r1type=1&r1strength=

I'm not suggesting one way is better than the other, but IMO, they aren't comparable about the way they approach the game on the offensive side.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Skinner gets hammered when he tries to make moves in open ice, not when he's in tight corners.

Defensemen generally know better than to take a run at him when he's close to the net.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Skinner gets hammered when he tries to make moves in open ice, not when he's in tight corners.

Defensemen generally know better than to take a run at him when he's close to the net.

While it's true he has taken his share of hits in open ice (Cowen, Orpik, Sutton), it's not universally true that's where he takes all his hits. I wasn't referring to just "tight corners", I was referring to the prime scoring areas and his penchant for driving the net that leads to these types of hits. His concussion in pre-season was exactly a play close to the net. His concussion against Toronto last year was holding on to the puck too long while driving to the net with the puck. Both are the prime scoring areas I am referring to.





There there are other examples as well: