Sean Couturier Part III

[YEM]

coots is the perfect 3C for a contender

But that still doesn't mean that I wouldn't like a 60 point #2 C.

since we're rebuilding...add it to the list

 

[deadhead]

It also depends on our forwards, both Voracek and Konecny are "pass first" forwards, so they need to be on lines with snipers to take full advantage of their talents. So a LW who can shoot would have a lot of value, you might even keep Konecny at C.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I wouldn't necessarily call Konecny a pass-first forward in the same breath as Voracek (or Giroux). I know his numbers this year look skewed toward that, but he likes to shoot and has a better shot than Jake. Ottawa doesn't really have a lot of playmakers that can get Konecny into favorable scoring positions. He's doing it mostly on his own. Does he look to set up his teammates? Yes, but if you look at his previous yearly totals, his goal totals are more in line with his assist totals. He's been a bit unlucky/off with his shot this year. Look what he's done when he's been surrounded by talent (U18s, Hlinka, Top Prospects Game, U20s).

 

[lancer247]

I wonder if Meltzer had a march on his house for criticizing Coots today. He dared to hold Coots responsible for his lack of scoring. His Twitter must have blown with d zones starts numbers, corsi, fenwick, and loads of other stats telling him Coots couldn't possibly be held responsible for not scoring more.

Seriously, he said what a lot of people who like Coots but know he needs to do more say. Forget about playing on the perimeter and go to the net.

 

[whitstifier]

I wonder if Meltzer had a march on his house for criticizing Coots today. He dared to hold Coots responsible for his lack of scoring. His Twitter must have blown with d zones starts numbers, corsi, fenwick, and loads of other stats telling him Coots couldn't possibly be held responsible for not scoring more.

Seriously, he said what a lot of people who like Coots but know he needs to do more say. Forget about playing on the perimeter and go to the net.

Haven't ever seen Meltzer do a good analysis of Couturier's usage. Don't think he has a good understanding of what's getting in the way of better point production.

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

Funny he should criticize his point totals while he has scored points in his last few games

 

[lancer247]

Haven't ever seen Meltzer do a good analysis of Couturier's usage. Don't think he has a good understanding of what's getting in the way of better point production.

It was in his write up on hockeybuzz earlier today. Short paragraph but pretty spot on.

 

[Curufinwe]

Haven't ever seen Meltzer do a good analysis of Couturier's usage. Don't think he has a good understanding of what's getting in the way of better point production.

Lack of points on the PP is what's getting in the way of better point production, and that won't change any time soon as he's not good enough to make the 2nd unit function, or to get on the 1st unit.

His ES point production has been more than respectable the past two seasons when he was given 2C minutes but shutdown center zone starts and matchups. And like last season, his 5 on 5 production is only slightly lower than Giroux's this season. He has been going to the net a lot this season, the chances just haven't been going in for the 2nd line till Saturday.

Read's PDO is 92, and Simmonds and Couturier are at 96. That unsustainably low over a full season.


http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.h...&end0=20152016&end1=2015-12-01&splitseasons=1

 

[whitstifier]

Lack of points on the PP is what's getting in the way of better point production, and that won't change any time soon as he's not good enough to make the 2nd unit function, or to get on the 1st unit.

His ES point production has been more than respectable the past two seasons when he was given 2C minutes but shutdown center zone starts and matchups. And like last season, his 5 on 5 production is only slightly lower than Giroux's this season. He has been going to the net a lot this season, the chances just haven't been going in for the 2nd line till Saturday.

Read's PDO is 92, and Simmonds and Couturier are at 96. That unsustainably low over a full season.


http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.h...&end0=20152016&end1=2015-12-01&splitseasons=1

Yeah, I've never seen Meltzer acknowledge any of those points. Or maybe he did, but he simply dismissed them and concluded that Couturier should score more. Separately, anyone notice Melter's attention to Mason not busting out laps during practice. Honestly, who the **** cares?

 

[Striiker]

How's Mason going to win a race to the puck if he doesn't even want to skate?

I bet Bryz skated laps properly.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Really nothing controversial said there.

Meanwhile, Sean Couturier finally scored his second goal of the season in Friday's game because he got himself to the net for a rebound. For all the excellent things he does defensively and puck possession wise, Couturier is still far too often a perimeter player in the offfensive zone. That is the most valid criticism of his game; he doesn't score much because he doesn't do the things that will enable him to score. A player doesn't need to have great speed (which he lacks) or even great hands to find some success around the net. It takes hockey sense, an attacking mentality and a whole lot of determination. The type of goal he scored in Saturday's game is exactly what the Flyers need him to do more.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72875

 

[whitstifier]

Really nothing controversial said there.


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72875

Nope, I wouldn't say controversial. Still, better point production would come from better usage in the offensive zone and more puck luck. Couturier is put on the perimeter in the PP. Not the best usage of a player with the possession skills of Couturier. Also, Meltzer conveniently ignores how Couturier has been playing the net so far this season. With better fortune and more help from his linemates, Couturier scores on the chances he creates by controlling the puck in the o-zone.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Nope, I wouldn't say controversial. Still, better point production would come from better usage in the offensive zone and more puck luck. Couturier is put on the perimeter in the PP. Not the best usage of a player with the possession skills of Couturier. Also, Meltzer conveniently ignores how Couturier has been playing the net so far this season. With better fortune and more help from his linemates, Couturier scores on the chances he creates by controlling the puck in the o-zone.

Or Couturier just playing better like he has in the past couple of games. It's okay to hold Couturier accountable for himself.

 

[whitstifier]

Or Couturier just playing better like he has in the past couple of games. It's okay to hold Couturier accountable for himself.

Is it not also okay to expect adjustments that create a more conducive scoring environment for Couturier? It's not all on Couturier either.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Is it not also okay to expect adjustments that create a more conducive scoring environment for Couturier? It's not all on Couturier either.

You're not doing that either though. You're just on the other side of the argument.

 

[Appleyard]

If Couturier's on ice CF and SF stays at a similar level the rest of the year I would not be too worried about his production... it will certainly start to catch up to his 'offensive possession' stats at some point.

31.34 SF/60
65.92 CF/60

Combined that is the best of any player on the team.

His CF/60 is actually 12th best in the NHL.

Last year 17 NHL forward finished the year with more than 65 CF/60...

The worst of those 17 production wise was Anders Lee (being carried by linemates offensively) who paced for 44 points.

It is virtually impossible to get more than 65 CF/60 at 5v5 and not get 40+ points on the year.

But his Corsi on-ice sh% is about 50% of what you would expect.

And his on-ice sh% is about 55% of what you would expect.

It would be quite incredible statistically if him and his line kept producing the number of CF and shots on the year that they are yet production failed to increase by at least ~50% from now onward.

 

[Curufinwe]

I actually feel that Couturier gets down low and gets to the net quite a lot at ES. This is why he scores at a reasonable rate at ES. When he's out on the perimeter on the PP he has a significantly lower rate of relative production, and the team might be better served moving him in front of the net on PP2.

If Gagner was in the team I would like to see them try this set-up.

Gagner-Couturier-Laughton
MDZ-Medvedev

I don't think Read is very useful on the PP, so with Gagner out I would try.

Couturier-Raffl/Umberger-Laughton
MDZ-Medvedev

I will go bump the Laughton thread but I'm sick of him not getting PP time while Manning is out there fumbling around at the point.

 

[whitstifier]

You're not doing that either though. You're just on the other side of the argument.

Not really. I think Couturier could be much better on the perimeter. He's got a good shot and passing ability, but I haven't seen him use either. Several of his goals have been snipes from well outside the net.

 

[Curufinwe]

I think Laughton and BSchenn have a lot more zip on their wrist shots than Couturier does.

 

[Random Forest]

Still, better point production would come from better usage in the offensive zone and more puck luck.

Few people challenge this point. But that doesn't mean ALL of Couturier's lack of production can be explained by this alone. He does have flaws, and those flaws often limit his offensive output. Does his usage have an even greater affect on his output? Yeah, I'd say so. But this notion that any and all criticism of Couturier can be entirely related back to usage alone is awfully disingenuous.

If you don't think Couturier has another level to his game, then I think you're being the one who's unfair to him.


That said, he's obviously been better the last couple games.

 

[Curufinwe]

I read an article today saying we should trade him for Nick Merkley.

 

[whitstifier]

Few people challenge this point. But that doesn't mean ALL of Couturier's lack of production can be explained by this alone. He does have flaws, and those flaws often limit his offensive output. Does his usage have an even greater affect on his output? Yeah, I'd say so. But this notion that any and all criticism of Couturier can be entirely related back to usage alone is awfully disingenuous.

If you don't think Couturier has another level to his game, then I think you're being the one who's unfair to him.


That said, he's obviously been better the last couple games.

Never said that was all there was to it. I have high expectations for Couturier. But he's still so young. There's time for him to develop his offensive game. Partly on him to achieve his potential, partly on coaches and linemates to put him in a better place to succeed.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Not really. I think Couturier could be much better on the perimeter. He's got a good shot and passing ability, but I haven't seen him use either. Several of his goals have been snipes from well outside the net.

You might want to check out a goal compilation of his from last year on YouTube. All of them but one (goal against SJ on the PP) were in around the net.

In any event there's some truth to what Bill said. You're just being too sensitive. That's all the point I'm making here.

 

[whitstifier]

You might want to check out a goal compilation of his from last year on YouTube. All of them but one (goal against SJ on the PP) were in around the net.

In any event there's some truth to what Bill said. You're just being too sensitive. That's all the point I'm making here.

Right, but earlier in his career he would use his shot more effectively. I haven't seen his shot in some time, a shame because it's above average.

I just don't think it's useful or interesting to simply say Couturier should be better. Doesn't really dig into context. Sure, Couturier could be better, but what does that mean? About as pointless as yelling at players to shoot.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I do agree that the half board position for Coots is probably not the ideal usage for him on the PP. The guy is a beast down low, is big, and has a long reach. He should be playing the front of the net, but we don't really have a setup guy for PP2 better than him either. Fix PP2 and he gets a nice little boost.

That said, the ongoing Coots arguments are tiresome. The guy's value is evident. He's not the problem with this team.