Sean Couturier Part III

[CanadianFlyer88]

Part II.

Continue.

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[OriginJM]

sean is the 2nd best player on this team and ill fight anyone that thinks otherwise

we'll set it up in a pm

 

[Flyotes]

sean is the 2nd best player on this team and ill fight anyone that thinks otherwise

we'll set it up in a pm

check your pm

 

[Mister S]

I never suggested the Flyers make a shortsighted trade. But if this kid is as good as many seem to think he is, I would imagine he would bring back a few major pieces for our rebuild, no?

 

[Beef Invictus]

At his age, and with his skillset, he is a vital part of the rebuild. You don't trade the rebuild to rebuild.

 

[Mister S]

At his age, and with his skillset, he is a vital part of the rebuild. You don't trade the rebuild to rebuild.

Again, I guess it comes down to how highly you value the player. I see him as a role player on a contender, others view him as a core piece.

Probably nothing I could say would change your mind. And I am waiting to see something that will change mine.

 

[Flyotes]

He's 22, almost 23 and one of the better defending forwards in the league. He's getting OZ% starts finally and is already a 40p forward. I'd rather hang on unless you get blown away by a trade.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Once we trade him then we'd be seeking to replace him. Just digging one hole to fill another.

 

[hatcher]

Ghost having a bad night in his own end against the animals on the 4th line.

 

[hatcher]

Game set match.

 

[Appleyard]

His PK stats this season are pretty unreal:

69.36 CA/60 (5th best amongst NHL forwards, 30+ SH TOI)

3.38 GA/60 (8th best amongst NHL forwards, 30+ SH TOI)

111 forwards have played 30+mins of SH TOI.


Though his 57.24% CF% at 5v5 is 11th best amongst NHL forwards as well... (200+ minutes, 293 players have played that much) even though he has played, QoC wise, against some of the toughest opponents in the NHL. (his QoC is actually tougher than last season this year.)

 

[deadhead]

There is a bizarre tendency among fans to think that trades can solve all problems, as if your GM is a genius and the others are idiots who can be counted upon to make one sided deals.

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"

In other words, if you have a solid young player, you should be extremely reluctant to trade him unless someone makes "an offer you can't refuse."

The Flyers are in the process of dumping bad salaries, older veterans and developing a generation of young players - it is not the time to be trading players who are just entering their peak seasons and are still reasonably priced. There is no deal that is going to put them over the top or significantly accelerate the rebuild.

Couts is a solid role player, most teams only have a few stars and a coterie of role players who complement them. The game is not only about scoring goals, it is about preventing goals. Couts is a key player when it comes to playing good defense. The only way I'd trade him is if Laughton suddenly blossoms into a top two way center, Cousins emerges as a solid 3rd line center, and someone is willing to grossly overpay.

You trade players in their prime when your talent pipeline is so overstocked you need to make room and the trade frees up cap room to keep key veterans. Right now the Flyers are still years away from the talent cup running over, and Couts is a key veteran.

 

[Psuhockey]

Once we trade him then we'd be seeking to replace him. Just digging one hole to fill another.

Couturier is a 3rd line center. He is an excellent 3rd line center much like Martin Hanzal but still a 3rd line center. He would be missed but his position wouldn't be that hard to find a replacement.

That being said, I doubt they would ever get equivalent value in a trade for a much harder position to fill so there is no point in trading him.

 

[whitstifier]

Couturier is a 3rd line center. He is an excellent 3rd line center much like Martin Hanzal but still a 3rd line center. He would be missed but his position wouldn't be that hard to find a replacement.

That being said, I doubt they would ever get equivalent value in a trade for a much harder position to fill so there is no point in trading him.

He's my counter-argument: Couturier is better than a third line center. It matches the strength of your argument!

 

[Tripod]

Couturier is a 3rd line center. He is an excellent 3rd line center much like Martin Hanzal but still a 3rd line center. He would be missed but his position wouldn't be that hard to find a replacement.

That being said, I doubt they would ever get equivalent value in a trade for a much harder position to fill so there is no point in trading him.

You say that...yet our 1st rd draft pick Laughton cannot fill that role...offensively or defensively at the moment.

I look at it this way...if I had to choose...I keep Couts over Simmonds or BSchenn easily. Well that is a potential 60 point guy and a 50 point guy. Yet every time, I easily keep the 40 point guy who is elite defensively.

 

[Psuhockey]

He's my counter-argument: Couturier is better than a third line center. It matches the strength of your argument!

he hasn't hit 20 goals or 40 pts in a season yet in his career. At his current pace, he won't hit 20 pts on this season. Is that 2nd line production?

 

[whitstifier]

he hasn't hit 20 goals or 40 pts in a season yet in his career. At his current pace, he won't hit 20 pts on the season. Is that 2nd line production?

You can't just ignore his defensive ability. If Couturier put up 50+ points with his assignments, he'd be producing along the lines of Bergeron, who's a 1C. Your labels don't aptly describe Couts.

 

[Psuhockey]

You can't just ignore his defensive ability. If Couturier put up 50+ points with his assignments, he'd be producing along the lines of Bergeron, who's a 1C. Your labels don't aptly describe Couts.

Well traditional 3rd line centers were called checking line centers because of their defensive assignment. So since his defensive ability is all any one can talk about Couturier since his production stinks, I think labeling him a 3rd line center or checking center is appropriate.

Since Bergeron turned 20 years old, his average totals in seasons he has played more than 70 games (7 seasons) is 24 goals and 62 points. Couturier 2 full seasons since he turned 20 were 14 goals and 38 points. So if Couturier can get those numbers up to Bergeron level I will call him a 1st line center.

 

[deadhead]

Gagner scores almost as much as Couts (though he's 3 years older), yet he's probably untradable and will struggle to find a job next year much over the minimum salary. Scoring in the NHL can be overrated - see Vinnie.

If Couts is easily replaced, then he shouldn't garner much in a trade, since why would any sane GM give up serious assets for a player he can easily replace?

 

[Psuhockey]

Gagner scores almost as much as Couts (though he's 3 years older), yet he's probably untradable and will struggle to find a job next year much over the minimum salary. Scoring in the NHL can be overrated - see Vinnie.

If Couts is easily replaced, then he shouldn't garner much in a trade, since why would any sane GM give up serious assets for a player he can easily replace?

And that's what I said. There is no point in trading him because you wouldn't get equal value at a much more harder to fill position of need like top 4 right handed defenseman or top 2 line center. If he could get one of those at a similar age, he should definitely be traded but no team is doing that.

 

[whitstifier]

Well traditional 3rd line centers were called checking line centers because of their defensive assignment. So since his defensive ability is all any one can talk about Couturier since his production stinks, I think labeling him a 3rd line center or checking center is appropriate.

Since Bergeron turned 20 years old, his average totals in seasons he has played more than 70 games (7 seasons) is 24 goals and 62 points. Couturier 2 full seasons since he turned 20 were 14 goals and 38 points. So if Couturier can get those numbers up to Bergeron level I will call him a 1st line center.

Again, that's the problem. You're sticking too close to traditional labels. You weigh point production too much while undercutting the importance of possession and defensive metrics.

Bergeron faces easier minutes than Couturier, though. His career also stretches into a period in which scoring was up.

 

[Tripod]

And no one is saying he is Bergeron. Just that points are not everything to determine "what" a player is.

Schenn produced as a 1st liner last year. Anyone consider hima 1st liner?

Couts produces within 1-3 points of being a 2nd liner if you look at only points. Then add in what he does defensively and on the PK, and he jumps ahead of a bunch of guys. Guys like Schenn who produce as 1st liners.

 

[Psuhockey]

Again, that's the problem. You're sticking too close to traditional labels. You weigh point production too much while undercutting the importance of possession and defensive metrics.

Bergeron faces easier minutes than Couturier, though. His career also stretches into a period in which scoring was up.

I wonder what John Madden's possession and defensive metrics were? Would you consider John Madden a 2nd line center at any point in his career because point production is about the same as Couturier's.

 

[Curufinwe]

he hasn't hit 20 goals or 40 pts in a season yet in his career. At his current pace, he won't hit 20 pts on this season. Is that 2nd line production?

30 ES points in a season is 2nd line production, and that's what he averaged the past two seasons.

His PP production has been poor, but that has no relevance as to what line he plays on at ES.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Madden is a poor example if you want to somehow diminish Cout's value, as he precisely fits that mold of "Selke-caliber center" that pretty much every Cup winning team needs to win. If we have a Madden level player then he needs to be kept.