Line Combos: Roster Discussion/Line Combos

[Monstershockey]

This is ultimately the “golden question”. But, it goes much deeper than just asking the players that question. Not to mention, you’re almost always going to have SOME players deviate from the majority of the other players’ style, as it is almost always a necessity for a truly successful team. But, even then, as we saw with Panarin, even the most skilled players need to “buy in” to whatever the system is and play a TEAM ORIENTED game.

Again, for all the haters of BOTH Jarmo and Howson, they did a good job at building a TEAM. (And for the haters of Torts, he could and can coach CERTAIN teams.) At one time. Then somewhat recently, literally everything changed. The roster build, the mindset, the on ice play. And what followed? More and more losses. But, WHY THE CHANGE??

The problem isn’t even the majority of the players, IMO. Though an interesting poll here would be -“Who are the problem players”?-…Forget the GM/Management asking the players that question, they need to figure out what exactly THEY want this team to be 1st!!

SHAME on all of you who were fully supportive of the changes and weren’t happy with the absolute SUCCESS of the team, that IMO is what pressured and caused ownership and Jarmo to build this current CBJ team into the BS literally unwatchable team it has become. “Hockey should be exciting”…..insert Jack Roslovic…..???



Why is Torts currently leading/coaching one of the most “storied” or “prestigious” NHL franchises/organizations to the playoffs currently, when the CBJ team/organization led him to want to “retire” and many of its fans had expressed that “the game was moving past him”? While at the same time, since he’s gone the team has played the most embarrassing hockey the have in their existence, and been a consistent bottom 3 team statistically.

Why is our past “long term” captain Nick Foligno mentoring Bedard in Chicago and not Fantilli in Columbus??

Why does nobody else seem to care about these things??

Speaking of Foligno...


I wonder if we have anyone that goes this hard in practice.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

This is ultimately the “golden question”. But, it goes much deeper than just asking the players that question. Not to mention, you’re almost always going to have SOME players deviate from the majority of the other players’ style, as it is almost always a necessity for a truly successful team. But, even then, as we saw with Panarin, even the most skilled players need to “buy in” to whatever the system is and play a TEAM ORIENTED game.

Again, for all the haters of BOTH Jarmo and Howson, they did a good job at building a TEAM. (And for the haters of Torts, he could and can coach CERTAIN teams.) At one time. Then somewhat recently, literally everything changed. The roster build, the mindset, the on ice play. And what followed? More and more losses. But, WHY THE CHANGE??

The problem isn’t even the majority of the players, IMO. Though an interesting poll here would be -“Who are the problem players”?-…Forget the GM/Management asking the players that question, they need to figure out what exactly THEY want this team to be 1st!!

SHAME on all of you who were fully supportive of the changes and weren’t happy with the absolute SUCCESS of the team, that IMO is what pressured and caused ownership and Jarmo to build this current CBJ team into the BS literally unwatchable team it has become. “Hockey should be exciting”…..insert Jack Roslovic…..???



Why is Torts currently leading/coaching one of the most “storied” or “prestigious” NHL franchises/organizations to the playoffs currently, when the CBJ team/organization led him to want to “retire” and many of its fans had expressed that “the game was moving past him”? While at the same time, since he’s gone the team has played the most embarrassing hockey the have in their existence, and been a consistent bottom 3 team statistically.

Why is our past “long term” captain Nick Foligno mentoring Bedard in Chicago and not Fantilli in Columbus??

Why does nobody else seem to care about these things??

I didn't mean literally ask the players but what management needs to ask themselves about the players.

 

[Viqsi]

This is ultimately the “golden question”. But, it goes much deeper than just asking the players that question. Not to mention, you’re almost always going to have SOME players deviate from the majority of the other players’ style, as it is almost always a necessity for a truly successful team. But, even then, as we saw with Panarin, even the most skilled players need to “buy in” to whatever the system is and play a TEAM ORIENTED game.

Again, for all the haters of BOTH Jarmo and Howson, they did a good job at building a TEAM. (And for the haters of Torts, he could and can coach CERTAIN teams.) At one time. Then somewhat recently, literally everything changed. The roster build, the mindset, the on ice play. And what followed? More and more losses. But, WHY THE CHANGE??

The problem isn’t even the majority of the players, IMO. Though an interesting poll here would be -“Who are the problem players”?-…Forget the GM/Management asking the players that question, they need to figure out what exactly THEY want this team to be 1st!!

SHAME on all of you who were fully supportive of the changes and weren’t happy with the absolute SUCCESS of the team, that IMO is what pressured and caused ownership and Jarmo to build this current CBJ team into the BS literally unwatchable team it has become. “Hockey should be exciting”…..insert Jack Roslovic…..???



Why is Torts currently leading/coaching one of the most “storied” or “prestigious” NHL franchises/organizations to the playoffs currently, when the CBJ team/organization led him to want to “retire” and many of its fans had expressed that “the game was moving past him”? While at the same time, since he’s gone the team has played the most embarrassing hockey the have in their existence, and been a consistent bottom 3 team statistically.

Why is our past “long term” captain Nick Foligno mentoring Bedard in Chicago and not Fantilli in Columbus??

Why does nobody else seem to care about these things??

Plenty of folks here care about these things and are very upfront about it. There's just disagreements as to how and where (or even if) to point fingers.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Speaking of Foligno...


I wonder if we have anyone that goes this hard in practice.

I haven't watched a practice for a couple of year but my guess is no. Definitely not under Larsen or Gudbranson wouldn't have gotten in trouble last year questioning practice habits.

 

[majormajor]

Regarding the players brought up earlier:

I think you certainly could trade Kent Johnson and still get a nice return, but much diminished after a rough sophomore season and now a long recovery ahead from shoulder surgery. I think he might still have a lot of upside so I'm probably not going to want to make that trade.

Laine has three years left and might not be tradable without some bad money coming back, that or retention. But if Laine is excited to join a new club then it's very doable. Kuznetsov is a much more blighted player, with a drug issue, out of shape, severe lack of compete, couldn't play defense if he tried, and the Caps still were able to move him to the Canes because the Canes need elite offense to get over the hump. I don't think we'd have to retain half to move Laine, or maybe not even a quarter. Laine was a solid player for the last couple seasons before this one, 108 pts in 111 games. He just has to be excited to play again (I think a new team would help that) and have that concussion far enough behind him.

I would like to move Laine because I think his mindset and inconsistency don't fit with a young team like this that needs to focus on putting young players in a stable lineup and in positions to succeed.

Gaudreau I would not trade. In a couple years I can see him and Boone being a great second line tearing up those matchups (yes, Boone still good) when Fantilli and company take over.

Plenty of folks here care about these things and are very upfront about it. There's just disagreements as to how and where (or even if) to point fingers.

I'm still upset we had so many Jackets fans hate on the team when it was good, never cease on the "lack of f***ing talent" drumbeat, and cheer when the club went in a soft skill direction. We had a very good playoff style club that could have gone further and so many fans didn't appreciate it. So I really don't mind bus rubbing it in.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Apparently Werenski is questionable

 

[Monstershockey]

Apparently Werenski is questionable

He has been better defensively the last few games, but probably still needs some work. This should be a fun weekend playing Hershey who has already smoked us twice, and pretty much everybody else. Not expecting much this weekend.

 

[Viqsi]

I'm still upset we had so many Jackets fans hate on the team when it was good, never cease on the "lack of f***ing talent" drumbeat, and cheer when the club went in a soft skill direction. We had a very good playoff style club that could have gone further and so many fans didn't appreciate it. So I really don't mind bus rubbing it in.

Oh, I agree. I just don't think they're the reason why the front office pivoted and so I don't see the need to level that accusation.

 

[thebus88]

Speaking of Foligno...


I wonder if we have anyone that goes this hard in practice.

And to add, we had the guy who has now opted out of playing, apparently being used to “mentor” our new franchise player….

 

[stevo61]

Hopefully better communication with Jiricek this time . Im curious to see how the media runs with this whether hes in or not

 

[VT]

Regarding the players brought up earlier:

I think you certainly could trade Kent Johnson and still get a nice return, but much diminished after a rough sophomore season and now a long recovery ahead from shoulder surgery. I think he might still have a lot of upside so I'm probably not going to want to make that trade.

Laine has three years left and might not be tradable without some bad money coming back, that or retention. But if Laine is excited to join a new club then it's very doable. Kuznetsov is a much more blighted player, with a drug issue, out of shape, severe lack of compete, couldn't play defense if he tried, and the Caps still were able to move him to the Canes because the Canes need elite offense to get over the hump. I don't think we'd have to retain half to move Laine, or maybe not even a quarter. Laine was a solid player for the last couple seasons before this one, 108 pts in 111 games. He just has to be excited to play again (I think a new team would help that) and have that concussion far enough behind him.

I would like to move Laine because I think his mindset and inconsistency don't fit with a young team like this that needs to focus on putting young players in a stable lineup and in positions to succeed.

Gaudreau I would not trade. In a couple years I can see him and Boone being a great second line tearing up those matchups (yes, Boone still good) when Fantilli and company take over.



I'm still upset we had so many Jackets fans hate on the team when it was good, never cease on the "lack of f***ing talent" drumbeat, and cheer when the club went in a soft skill direction. We had a very good playoff style club that could have gone further and so many fans didn't appreciate it. So I really don't mind bus rubbing it in.

I won't comment Laine because I wrote my idea in past. Besides, we don't know if he'll play in the NHL next season, or even if he's retired (if I understand JD and Ehlers right, this possibility is possible).

Johnson is very talented but I think GM would want to keep either him or Johnny. The team is too small.

The question is where Sillinger will play. Jenner is playing very well at center, then we have Fantilli, Voronkov and Kuraly. Only if move Voronkov on the wing again.

Concerning the new contracts. Not only the size of the contracts will be important but also the role in the team, number of minutes, etc. This concerns especially Marchenko and Chinakhov.

 

[EspenK]

I'm still upset we had so many Jackets fans hate on the team when it was good, never cease on the "lack of f***ing talent" drumbeat, and cheer when the club went in a soft skill direction. We had a very good playoff style club that could have gone further and so many fans didn't appreciate it. So I really don't mind bus rubbing it in.

I think the fans appreciated the team when they beat TB. But reality returned shortly thereafter and the griping resumed. Had Bob & Bread extended, PLD & Anderson continued to develop and other pieces had fallen into place it would be a different story.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think the fans appreciated the team when they beat TB. But reality returned shortly thereafter and the griping resumed. Had Bob & Bread extended, PLD & Anderson continued to develop and other pieces had fallen into place it would be a different story.

Agreed. As fan are wont to do, they/we began looking for explanation as to why the team fell short. LOFT, especially after the "exodus" was certainly on the table for contemplation.

The notion that fans pondering the team's talent level led to the front office decision to pursue a certain strategy is folly of course. But I will admit that, in assigning blame for, well, everything, blaming fans is a new one. If you can't turn over the whole roster, and you can't change ownership, maybe we should just excommunicate the fans. Hilarious.

 

[stevo61]

Its almost like slme fans hoped for a blend of skill and grit. For a brief period we have a good amount of it. But hey,cool playoff win. I can die happy knowing are hard working team won a round.

I also got jumped at for "disrespecting Nick" for saying Jenner was better in his role than the one Foligno was forced into. Next season Jenner got that time and put up 23 goals in 59 games so maybe it wasnt so disrespectful? People make very weird jumps from opinions they disagree with

 

[majormajor]

Agreed. As fan are wont to do, they/we began looking for explanation as to why the team fell short. LOFT, especially after the "exodus" was certainly on the table for contemplation.

My recollection is that we had nasty "loft" and "blow it up" type threads and comments every year. I was battling it the entire time.

The notion that fans pondering the team's talent level led to the front office decision to pursue a certain strategy is folly of course. But I will admit that, in assigning blame for, well, everything, blaming fans is a new one. If you can't turn over the whole roster, and you can't change ownership, maybe we should just excommunicate the fans. Hilarious.

I don't suspect any connection between fan sentiment and management's blunders. But I admired the team we had and I wish people really knew the team they had in the peak Torts era.

That type of hard working, high accountability foundation is something that teams around the league have been trying to build for decades, and have often failed at it. it's not something that can be easily re-created. I wish people knew that.

 

[EDM]

MM, yeah Torts now looks pretty good looking back. And in teh battle of credibility between him and Jarmo, he wins hands down.

 

[VT]

A good team is not only about the players, but also the coach, who has to be able to try different things, lines... if the team wants to win. He has to be able to reduce the time of a player and not follow his wishes when he wants to play more. If PP doesn't work he has to be able to radically change the lineup, not just try and see if the lineup without changes somehow scores a goal.

I hope everyone understood what I meant.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

We're like the only franchise ever that can look back on 5-6 years of barely making the playoffs, first round exits (except once), and say "wow, remember the good old days?"

Look, those times were obviously better than this. But let's not act like those teams were cup contenders (other than the Tampa year). We had one roster that could do damage, and even they got wiped away in round 2.

Again, not saying that was bad or that I wouldn't rather have that than where we are right now, but those teams, aside from one, were just barely above average. And that's with one of the best forwards in the world, a Vezina goalie, and two top pairing defenseman.

I'm so sick of looking back at 5 years ago as some sort of holy grail. We had a good run, but the time had run out on that group of guys because the stars wanted out. What were they going to do? The problem wasn't getting rid of the Foligno's of the world, the problem was never replacing them.

 

[majormajor]

We're like the only franchise ever that can look back on 5-6 years of barely making the playoffs, first round exits (except once), and say "wow, remember the good old days?"

Look, those times were obviously better than this. But let's not act like those teams were cup contenders (other than the Tampa year). We had one roster that could do damage, and even they got wiped away in round 2.

Again, not saying that was bad or that I wouldn't rather have that than where we are right now, but those teams, aside from one, were just barely above average. And that's with one of the best forwards in the world, a Vezina goalie, and two top pairing defenseman.

I'm so sick of looking back at 5 years ago as some sort of holy grail. We had a good run, but the time had run out on that group of guys because the stars wanted out. What were they going to do? The problem wasn't getting rid of the Foligno's of the world, the problem was never replacing them.

You're interpreting this in a very different direction.

I wasn't talking about holy grail cup contenders. And I wasn't talking about management decisions. I was talking about hard working foundational players and a high accountability team that many of our fans didn't appreciate. Not just unappreciative because the team didn't win a cup, but unappreciative in general of the whole need for such players and such accountability.

 

[stevo61]

You're interpreting this in a very different direction.

I wasn't talking about holy grail cup contenders. And I wasn't talking about management decisions. I was talking about hard working foundational players and a high accountability team that many of our fans didn't appreciate. Not just unappreciative because the team didn't win a cup, but unappreciative in general of the whole need for such players and such accountability.

See this is nonsense to me. Everyone loved many players on that team but other than 2 years of Panarin up front we had no superstar, it was all foundational players. We were Carolina like in the sense you knew you were in for a war but when push came to shove we were not going to be able to score enough. We got 1 run with some offense and it was the only year we could ever have been considered a contender.

Like CBJWerenski said, its not really that players left its that noone was brought in. Veterans, grinders, hard workers who have actually won are out there. Not sure why you think noone respected the guys we had. Would have been nice to keep a couple or simply do what Trotz did and throw money at it in the offseason. Luckily a new GM is going to have assets and money, lets hope he can build a well rounded team that checks all the boxes. Accountability, work ethic, skill, etc.

 

[majormajor]

See this is nonsense to me. Everyone loved many players on that team but other than 2 years of Panarin up front we had no superstar, it was all foundational players. We were Carolina like in the sense you knew you were in for a war but when push came to shove we were not going to be able to score enough. We got 1 run with some offense and it was the only year we could ever have been considered a contender.

Like CBJWerenski said, its not really that players left its that noone was brought in. Veterans, grinders, hard workers who have actually won are out there. Not sure why you think noone respected the guys we had. Would have been nice to keep a couple or simply do what Trotz did and throw money at it in the offseason. Luckily a new GM is going to have assets and money, lets hope he can build a well rounded team that checks all the boxes. Accountability, work ethic, skill, etc.

You're articulating a more nuanced position that I would have agreed with back then. At the time there were many commenters here that did not love the many hard working players on those teams.

 

[stevo61]

You're articulating a more nuanced position that I would have agreed with back then. At the time there were many commenters here that did not love the many hard working players on those teams.

but thats the point isnt it? I loved the team and those hard nosed players as much as anyone but a team of them has limited upside. Every so often a team like St.Louis gets hot at the right time but I think what many simply wanted was balance and to be legit Cup contender which at the end of the day is the goal. This team always seems to lean one direction too far. Whether it was the old school teams that seemed to enjoy punching people as much as watching Nash be their offense, the dark country club days, the gritty we will out work you days and now the all skill kid days.

The next GM can be hero or 0 pretty easily, a few solid moves to improve weaknesses can go a long way. Also its nice it looks like we probably found our superstar in house through the draft and he also happens to be a center

 

[majormajor]

but thats the point isnt it? I loved the team and those hard nosed players as much as anyone but a team of them has limited upside. Every so often a team like St.Louis gets hot at the right time but I think what many simply wanted was balance and to be legit Cup contender which at the end of the day is the goal.

Whose point?

You and I would have said that those hard nosed players were necessary but insufficient.

We had people saying those players are easy to get, an unnecessary consideration until late in the development of a team, and that we should blow it up for #1 picks instead. As if there haven't been many many later picks that became elite players and many #1 picks that wallowed on low accountability / low compete rosters.

Fun fact: the only #1 pick from the last seven drafts that is going to be playing in the playoffs this year is Alexis Lafreniere, who is being absolutely hard carried by the undrafted Artemi Panarin.

 

[stevo61]

Whose point?

You and I would have said that those hard nosed players were necessary but insufficient.

We had people saying those players are easy to get, an unnecessary consideration until late in the development of a team, and that we should blow it up for #1 picks instead. As if there haven't been many many later picks that became elite players and many #1 picks that wallowed on low accountability / low compete rosters.

Fun fact: the only #1 pick from the last seven drafts that is going to be playing in the playoffs this year is Alexis Lafreniere, who is being absolutely hard carried by the undrafted Artemi Panarin.

Well easier than superstars yeah. What point in time are you referencing? After Panarin and company left? Then yeah the scorched earth rebuild backers Im not onboard with ever. During our window of not being an embarrasment? We had a lot of compete that heavy outbalanced the skill.

 

[majormajor]

Well easier than superstars yeah. What point in time are you referencing?

The entire time. Including 2016-2019.