Speculation: Roster Building Thread XXXVI - It’s Miller Time…K-A

[bleedblue94]

What part of it is delusion? I’m saying these things CAN and DO happen. How the f*** is that delusional? Hahaha. I gave you actual real life examples.
And me? I “overpay” for THAT type of player, not some rental or semi rental that won’t even make us a Cup favorite. I think people who believe JT Miller would get us the Cup are delusional, but that’s way more far fetched than finding a gem that someone else is under appreciating. Mika, Seguin and Marc Savard are extreme examples that come immediately to mind. I’m sure there are plenty of good centers that have been found for less than a 1st, Nils and Kravtsov. And personally I’d add from our D surplus if necessary for that type of player.
I get it, you have a different approach. That s fine. Hahah. Others vary.

It is delusional to rely on making a trade that around the league has been mocked as a one sided mistake. Sure it could happen, but banking on that happening again for this org isnt a plan, it's hoping for lightning to strike twice. That's just silly

 

[bleedblue94]

You keep asking the same question and it has been answered again and again. It's not my fault it you want to ignore both the answer and reality.

High end players are frequently traded for less than or equal to a package of Nils, Kravtsov, a first, and maybe another addition.

Does Eichel have asterisks? Yes. Did Mark Stone have asterisks? Yes. Did Rick Nash have asterisks? Yes.

That's the damn point. These are star players who come available for some reason. It happens. It's not an "extremely unique," situation to see an Eichel type get traded. When it does, the price is usually very comparable to Nils, Krav, and a first. The Eichel price was actually significantly less I'd say.

What team is handing over a Lundell type for Nils? I dunno, maybe the Kings? A team that has like 7 center prospects but lacks top 4 D prospects?

You are being intentionally obtuse and it's bordering on blatant dishonesty at this point.

If this answer isn't sufficient for you, yes, if I was the Kings I'd absolutely consider trading someone like Turcotte for a Nils-type player.

Mark stone was a pending ufa and yes they got bramstrom bc of the extension but if he wasn't a pending ufa than Ottawa doesn't even make him available. All three players you referenced had huge contracts that they came with or signed immediate extensions with, so they aren't actually comparable to what you are looking for.

If we could absorb a huge cap hit long term than we could just look for a ufa center, but you're the same person saying we can't afford to spend a lot of money and mess up our cap situation a few years down the road.

So if we can't asbord a large cap hit than why are you using examples of stone, eichel and Nash to justify your package landing a big player? All three were available and traded at discount bc of their contract situations: Nash big contract and only really wanted nyr; eichel we all know about; stone pending ufa that signed a huge extension.

Find me examples of a cost controlled young center traded for the type of package your are suggesting. It is much harder to find a potential 1c than any of those three assets you keep peddling around.

 

[Avery16]

So what does that say about Kravtsov that the -professional- talent evaluators felt he was less than Gooch?

The kid needs work. He is clearly not a bottom 6 player on a professional hockey team that has playoff asperations, yet, he didn't; display enough talent to offset his +/- stat line in a top 6 that already is suspect on the d-zone with Kreider/Zib and Pond Hockey Queens Panarin/Strome.

There is a reason Management prefers Hunt/ Fast/ and Defence first Kakko on those lines. There is no doubt in my mind the kakko couldn't light it up, but he's been asked not too for "the good of the team" and he has been good soldier about it.


Winning is the bottom line. Coaches and GM don't care about a guys individual stats and career totals.

They didn’t think he was less than Gauthier. Gauthier required waivers and Kravstov didn’t. Drury tried to keep both and now he’ll be stuck with neither, since Gauthier can’t stick and Kravstov is disgruntled.

 

[effen]

Find me examples of a cost controlled young center traded for the type of package your are suggesting. It is much harder to find a potential 1c than any of those three assets you keep peddling around.

He's answered this.
1) Target 18-22 y/o not in the NHL yet or in his first year or two.
2 Be right with your evaluation
3) Wait 0-5 years for him to get good enough
4) There's your window.

There's more than a few holes in that line of reasoning, but it's what he's got.

He's also said he would empty the clip so to speak on a current top 6 young C (Petterson seems to be an apple of his eye) but he never got into how to fit the $7M+ he's owed. Substitute in whatever player and salary you like there.

Hopefully I saved everyone a lot of posts back and forth because we've done this a few times now.

 

[haohmaru]

Go figure Kravstov thinks that Gauthier didn’t beat him out for a spot. Gauthier sucks.

Kravtsov had an incomplete camp and preseason. He should've mended his body, put his nose down, and he would've been up with the team within weeks.

Instead, he quit on the team for the second time. Go figure he didn't make the team.

 

[mas0764]

Mark stone was a pending ufa and yes they got bramstrom bc of the extension but if he wasn't a pending ufa than Ottawa doesn't even make him available. All three players you referenced had huge contracts that they came with or signed immediate extensions with, so they aren't actually comparable to what you are looking for.

They might be. I'll figure out a way to clear cap space if I another Eichel situation cropped up.

but you're the same person saying we can't afford to spend a lot of money and mess up our cap situation a few years down the road.

If it's for a young center like Eichel, I'd make room. That's why you can't get tied down to the Stromes and Troubas and second class players of the league. You need the money for your stars.

So if we can't asbord a large cap hit than why are you using examples of stone, eichel and Nash to justify your package landing a big player? All three were available and traded at discount bc of their contract situations: Nash big contract and only really wanted nyr; eichel we all know about; stone pending ufa that signed a huge extension.

We have Strome's 5.5m earmarked and I can free up more room by moving Kreider, Trouba, or Goodrow, which I would certainly do if the right piece came along.

Find me examples of a cost controlled young center traded for the type of package your are suggesting. It is much harder to find a potential 1c than any of those three assets you keep peddling around.

Easy, Tyler Seguin.

Now the waiting game for what set of circumstances you'll spin up as to why this isn't applicable.

Yes, he brought back a current NHLer and three prospects. We may not have a player of Eriksson's caliber to ship out (ironically, we did with Buchnevich, as more evidence of the player he SHOULD have brought back). But our prospects are better.

 

[mas0764]

If i cant get a 1st for kravy then to arizona is not a bad idea at all with all those 2nd round picks. i would like 2 of those picks in the 2nd round. Arizona needs players, people that can score and build around. Kravy has already shown he can be successful in this league and is ready now, the 2nd rounders could be duds or could turn into something in 3 years. I would try for 2 2nds even if they are the 2 latest ones in the round.

It could be really nice to have 3 2nd round picks if we end up dealing our 1st rounder

I would certainly take Arizona's first for Kravtsov provided we use the pick. Of course, their pick will be top 4 so they won't do that. Can they give me next year's unprotected? I'll do that too.

I wouldn't take their second, or any second.

 

[mas0764]

Honestly. Hayton has been an absolute flop for them and quite the embarrassment considering the kids they passed up. He's also a link to the old guard. He will always carry a bad stigma for that franchise no matter how he turns out for them.

I'd see if we could get Hayton and a 2nd for Kravtsov and one of our redundant depth prospects or Gautier/Hajek that still has a shine on him but no future here.

I'd take a shot on Hayton for Kravtsov straight up even.

 

[mas0764]

And he’ got a pretty badass name to boot. Haha.
But I’m with you there. That’s where you spend assets.

I'm on board. Let's figure it out.

 

[mas0764]

Johnston would cost Schneider+ FWIW

I'd consider it depending on what the plus is.

 

[mas0764]

There's more than a few holes in that line of reasoning, but it's what he's got.

There are holes, but sadly, it's "what the Rangers' got" after failing to take good/better deals for Kreider and Buch, and for holding on to DeAngelo an offseason too long.

If they had done what I was advocating for back then we are in a much better situation moving forward.

Our options are now limited, which is the sad part, and it will only get harder.

That's why they can't wait any longer. And they definitely can't "empty the clip so to speak," on rentals.

If they can't find something this instant, bide their time. Something will come up.

Pettersson is an example, not a definite target.

 

[effen]

There are holes, but sadly, it's "what the Rangers' got" after failing to take good/better deals for Kreider and Buch, and for holding on to DeAngelo an offseason too long.

They could have moved ADA after his 53 point year but there wasn't a lot of interest. Kreider and Buch stuff is beat to death, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death a second time.

 

[bhamill]

It is delusional to rely on making a trade that around the league has been mocked as a one sided mistake. Sure it could happen, but banking on that happening again for this org isnt a plan, it's hoping for lightning to strike twice. That's just silly

Yeah. But I didn’t say to rely on it. You said no one makes trades that send a young 1 center for the type of assets we are shopping. I showed you they sometimes do and even more extreme than that, it happens sometimes with ELITE players. So what are you disputing that I actually said? To try to spend assets on something could actually help us long term?
Relying on JT to bring us a cup… now THAT would be delusional. Hopefully no one really believes that.

 

[haohmaru]

Had we executed the Kupari trade people would be bitching that he's almost 22, has 10 points in 44 games and is a bust. Just like they are with Kakko and Lafreniere. And still bemoaning what a great year Buchnevich is having. Let's get real.

 

[mas0764]

Had we executed the Kupari trade people would be bitching that he's almost 22, has 10 points in 44 games and is a bust. Just like they are with Kakko and Lafreniere. And still bemoaning what a great year Buchnevich is having. Let's get real.

I’m not bitching about Kakko and Laf.

I occasionally say I’m slightly concerned, but I’m not bitching.

 

[haohmaru]

I’m not bitching about Kakko and Laf.

I occasionally say I’m slightly concerned, but I’m not bitching.

Oh, I most certainly wasn't talking about you.

 

[haohmaru]

Easy, Tyler Seguin.

Now the waiting game for what set of circumstances you'll spin up as to why this isn't applicable.

Yes, he brought back a current NHLer and three prospects. We may not have a player of Eriksson's caliber to ship out (ironically, we did with Buchnevich, as more evidence of the player he SHOULD have brought back). But our prospects are better.

Terrible trade for the Bruins in hindsight

-however-

In 10 years with the Stars, he's had one deep run in the playoffs and his only Cup came as a 'yute with the Bruins. So.... does this guy really match what you're looking for in your team mantra for dynasty building? I don't know.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

I would certainly take Arizona's first for Kravtsov provided we use the pick. Of course, their pick will be top 4 so they won't do that. Can they give me next year's unprotected? I'll do that too.

I wouldn't take their second, or any second.

Im not talking about just a 2nd, im talking about getting (2) 2nd round picks for a player that will never play for us again. It doesnt seem like we are getting a 1st and the rift between the rangers brass and kravy does not seem to be able to be resolved.

Having (3) 2nd round picks and our first in this coming draft allows us the ability to move around in the draft to get who we want, also gives us more ammunition for a trade at the draft or during the summer to get the #2 center we need.

 

[mas0764]

Terrible trade for the Bruins in hindsight

-however-

In 10 years with the Stars, he's had one deep run in the playoffs and his only Cup came as a 'yute with the Bruins. So.... does this guy really match what you're looking for in your team mantra for dynasty building? I don't know.

I mean, the Stars had not also compiled a treasure trove of young talents like the Rangers have. The Rangers are very well off at wing, goalie, and defense for a long, long time. They have all the pieces together basically at those positions. Their achilles heel is center, which can otherwise derail them without getting some young guys.

The Stars were in a different position. I'm not claiming that "snagging a young low end 1C" (as Seguin is no Crosby or McDavid, certainly) guarantees a ten year window of competition.

I'm saying the Rangers are close to it with their young talent but they lack probably 2 centers - also, maybe one more wing and one more high end defenseman - but that once they get those things they are golden.

Yes, if the Rangers could get one Seguin for Nils, Krav, and a first, and maybe another small add like Gauthier or something, I would feel tremendous. I would still be looking for a young middle six center but that's definitely not as hard to find as a young top 6 center. The Rangers won't need a McDavid, they are going to be wing-driven. They need like a Backstrom and Kuznetzov pairing.

If they trade Nils, Krav and a first for someone who walks in 6 or 18 months and they don't win a Cup (which they won't), they can't go also trading Othmann, Jones, Robertson and a first next year for a center. They need those pieces.

They'll be tapped out.

Nils and Krav have to go for core components, young and long term.

 

[effen]

Nils, Krav, and a 1st don't have near the value you'd like. You won't find another Seguin type unless this new guy bangs his teammates wife and disappears in the playoffs too.

 

[Savant]

Had we executed the Kupari trade people would be bitching that he's almost 22, has 10 points in 44 games and is a bust. Just like they are with Kakko and Lafreniere. And still bemoaning what a great year Buchnevich is having. Let's get real.

That first rounder would be nice though

 

[haohmaru]

That first rounder would be nice though

We've done so well with those...

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Our organizational center depth is non existent.
Johnny Brodzinski and Tanner Fritz are eating up minutes on the two top spots in Hartford.
The 2022 draft is deep and at first look especially deep at the center position.
Unless they are used to address a long term solution, we should keep our first and two second round picks.

 

[smoneil]

Do you really think Vitali Kravtsov would be willing to go to Arizona and play in a college arena? No chance. If they traded for him he likely wouldn't report. He wants to be on the big stage.

Big boy stages require big boy pants, and I'm not sure he owns a pair.

 

[smoneil]

Go figure Kravstov thinks that Gauthier didn’t beat him out for a spot. Gauthier sucks.

How many more times are you going to repeat this? I know it's been explained to you before. Kravtsov was not in competition with Gauthier. Gauthier's "spot" was "spare forward." The Rangers, shockingly, thought that Kravtsov could be more than that, so they sent him to where he could get top minutes and develop into something more useful. Not all "roster spots" are equal. Kravtsov was in competition for six of them (2 wing spots x top three lines). He was beat out by six guys (seven if we are counting Chytil as a winger now). His final cut had nothing to do with Gaut. Had nothing to do with Hajek. Had nothing to do with Hunt/Rooney/Reaves. Whining about it for--checking calendar--four f***ing months isn't going to change the fact that the "wah wah but GAUTHIER AND HAJEK wah wah!" argument has always been a load of bull.