Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXVI

[MrAlmost]

Miller and Trouba are the top pair. Fox has shown all series that for him to be good, he needs Lindgren. I am not so sure 9.5 for Fox was that great.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Say it with me folks

Adam Fox is injured

Ryan Lindgren is not carrying Adam Fox lmao

 

[Raspewtin]

Miller and Trouba are the top pair. Fox has shown all series that for him to be good, he needs Lindgren. I am not so sure 9.5 for Fox was that great.

What a stupid post

No shit there's a difference between Fox with a borderline bottom pair player in Braun on his offside and Lindgren, duh.

Fox has had a noticeable LBI for months. Shocking how few of you have caught on.

Also ironic considering Lindgren this season is the worst defensively he's been in his NHL career and most of this board has been skewering him for coming to camp out of shape. Was that Fox being bad too? Did Fox get married and we didn't know?

holy shit man

 

[Machinehead]

Say it with me folks

Adam Fox is injured

Ryan Lindgren is not carrying Adam Fox lmao

Also Adam Fox is still really good and has been all season.

He probably finishes top 5 for the Norris for the second straight year.

 

[MrAlmost]

What a stupid post

No shit there's a difference between Fox with a borderline bottom pair player in Braun on his offside and Lindgren, duh.

Fox has had a noticeable LBI for months. Shocking how few of you have caught on.

Also ironic considering Lindgren this season is the worst defensively he's been in his NHL career and most of this board has been skewering him for coming to camp out of shape. Was that Fox being bad too? Did Fox get married and we didn't know?

holy shit man

Damn bud, sorry.

I just think its clear that Trouba and Miller make the better matchup top pair and Fox clearly plays better when Lindgren is in the lineup cause they obviously have very good chemistry.

And I think 9.5 is too high. Not by much, maybe 8.5 or the same contract as Trouba, 8. It doesn't sound like much, but a million too much for Fox, a million too much for Trouba, a million too much for Panarin. It adds up.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Damn bud, sorry.

I just think its clear that Trouba and Miller make the better matchup top pair and Fox clearly plays better when Lindgren is in the lineup cause they obviously have very good chemistry.

And I think 9.5 is too high. Not by much, maybe 8.5 or the same contract as Trouba, 8. It doesn't sound like much, but a million too much for Fox, a million too much for Trouba, a million too much for Panarin. It adds up.

Fox this season even with his subpar play (compared to last season) was worth more than 10m this season.

Also Adam Fox is still really good and has been all season.

He probably finishes top 5 for the Norris for the second straight year.

Probably not top 5.
Josi
Makar
Hedman
McAvoy
Ekblad


Would be my votes this year

 

[MrAlmost]

Fox this season even with his subpar play (compared to last season) was worth more than 10m this season.

And that's fair. You can find my posts from earlier in the year defending him from the people who said he was playing bad or that he is bad or that he is regressing. I am more musing on people's perception of which pairing is the top pairing and maybe a little on the concept of paying 1 player/s that much money to begin with. Boston and Pittsburgh have remained competitive for 15 years now and I think it has a lot to do with their frugal spending habits and their ability to seemingly get great players to "buy in".

At no point did I or do I think Fox is bad. I think it might benefit the team for Lindgren and Fox to get reduced minutes. They aren't the biggest guys after all.

 

[IDvsEGO]

And that's fair. You can find my posts from earlier in the year defending him from the people who said he was playing bad or that he is bad or that he is regressing. I am more musing on people's perception of which pairing is the top pairing and maybe a little on the concept of paying 1 player/s that much money to begin with. Boston and Pittsburgh have remained competitive for 15 years now and I think it has a lot to do with their frugal spending habits and their ability to seemingly get great players to "buy in".

At no point did I or do I think Fox is bad. I think it might benefit the team for Lindgren and Fox to get reduced minutes. They aren't the biggest guys after all.

Pittsburg benefited by locking up guys to under market value, because they’d play with Crosby, and because they also signed Crosby to a 12 year deal, which kept his cap hit down.

 

[17futurecap]

 

[Machinehead]

Fox is underpaid by 3 million

 

[haohmaru]

That's not a very strong argument.

Their playoff stats are remarkably similar with the exception of Trouba having significantly more defensive zone starts than Fox. Even strength ATOI, even strength points, CF for/against, PK ATOI, shots, you name it. Which one makes more money again?

They are of value, but they are unquantifiable. And I am insinuating (actually, stating outright) that those values are used disingenuously by people to prop up what is obviously an inferior player (inferior to a player like Fox, not meaning outright bad) because they like that player. It's like when people are arguing about running backs and someone brings up pass protection. Like... great, but that's not why we are paying that position.

The above is complete and total bullshit - which is why I asked if you have ever played competitively before. Can you measure the value of a guy having his head on a swivel because he knows Trouba is going to drive him through the boards? Nope. The value of blocking shots? Not really. The value of a guy having your back no matter what? Nope. Leader in the room? Nope. Mentor on the ice? Nope. Are these "propping up" inferior players? Nope. Ask the players in the room what a guy like that means to the room. Ask the coaches. And, we're talking about a guy that had an outstanding season on offense as well. Jan-May, Trouba and Fox are a dead heat. There's nothing disingenuous about my argument - I think statistics would bear it out as well + the "intangibles".

And, FWIW, this is not because I "like" Trouba or he's my favorite Ranger or any nonsense like that. I have no dog in the hunt, I'm just calling balls and strikes and, for what I've watched, Trouba and Fox have been of roughly equal value for months now.

And we are sitting here in other threads talking about Fox should be the captain. We are overselling this leadership thing a bit. We have other players who are capable of being leaders. We have other players who are physical. Every time we have this argument it shifts into a recounting of "these are the things Trouba does."

I understand that. But you can't pay him $8m to do it for much longer.

People have been talking about Trouba being captain all year long, too. Who gives a rip?

What's your take on Lindgren's return? That's he's the 4th-5th best defenseman on the team and it didn't mean a lot? The whole team was clearly lifted by him coming back - particularly Fox.

His clock here is ticking.

If it was up to me (which it isn't, and the team has already shown it's willingness to make bad value moves to favor the now over the long term health of the organization), I would much rather lock down players like Miller and Lafrieniere to long term deals as opposed to having another season of Trouba at $8m.

It's really not. It's a non issue for the next two years at least, IMHO.

 

[RangersFan1994]

maybe the next Zuccarello maybe not at 27 a bit late though right?

 

[Fitzy]

maybe the next Zuccarello maybe not at 27 a bit late though right?

Based on his scouting report, he reads more as a possible 4th line option than a serious potential scoring threat.

NYR may have a vacancy at 4C. Rooney hasn't been as good since his return from injury. Goodrow looks really nice on the 4th line but they paid him 3.6 million to play on the 3rd.

The Rangers have been trying to get the next Boyle for a while now. Shooting at guys like Gettinger, Rempe, Barron, Edstrom. Rangy guys that can cover a lot of ice defensively with their stick reach.

Justin Richards had a disappointing season in the AHL.

 

[mas0764]

Their playoff stats are remarkably similar with the exception of Trouba having significantly more defensive zone starts than Fox. Even strength ATOI, even strength points, CF for/against, PK ATOI, shots, you name it. Which one makes more money again?

No, Fox is a Norris winner and is way better than Trouba on-ice. Silly argument. Your better bet would be to tell me that Trouba is more important than Miller cause at least that is borne out by stats. I'm projecting on Miller, but I'll stand by that assertion too.

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The above is complete and total bullshit - which is why I asked if you have ever played competitively before. Can you measure the value of a guy having his head on a swivel because he knows Trouba is going to drive him through the boards? Nope. The value of blocking shots? Not really. The value of a guy having your back no matter what? Nope. Leader in the room? Nope. Mentor on the ice? Nope. Are these "propping up" inferior players? Nope.

So it's not bullshit at all, you are admitting that it's how much personal value you place on something.

It's prone to disingenuity - and outright lies.

Spare me the "I've played" nonsense. Not only is it basically unverifiable but it's also pretty meaningless. I like it when I get told "you've clearly never managed people before," too, that's a good one. Considering it's completely ignorant of my background. How would anyone know if either of us played before? Maybe I'm Mark Messier.

Those things have value, but they aren't measurable, and so I'm not interested in having a debate about them because I've learned very clearly that too many people here aren't interested in a good faith debate when these characteristics enter the conversation.

It's like the silly "playoff experience," argument. People act like it's a trump card. It isn't. Neither is "leadership."

It has value. It doesn't make him more valuable than Fox. Or Miller.

I think statistics would bear it out as well + the "intangibles".

The statistics don't bear it out and the intangibles are subjective as I've pointed out.

And, FWIW, this is not because I "like" Trouba or he's my favorite Ranger or any nonsense like that. I have no dog in the hunt, I'm just calling balls and strikes and, for what I've watched, Trouba and Fox have been of roughly equal value for months now.

Fox and Trouba are not of equal value in anyone's mind except a few posters on this board. It's ridiculous.

What's your take on Lindgren's return? That's he's the 4th-5th best defenseman on the team and it didn't mean a lot? The whole team was clearly lifted by him coming back - particularly Fox.

I would say it did mean a lot. You asking that question is demonstrative of what you aren't getting about this debate.

Lindgren is a better defender than Trouba and I think he (Lindgren) does mean a shit ton to this team, but I would say he isn't as important overall as Trouba. But he also makes just $3m. When Lindgren is asking for $6m+ next contract there will be a hard discussion about him too. I will be saying "We have a guy who does a lot of the same stuff as Lindgren in Matt Robertson for way less, maybe we should think about this...."

It's really not. It's a non issue for the next two years at least, IMHO.

Oh, so we can extend Kakko to a long term deal and sign a 2nd line center no problem then?

Come on.

It's an issue.

The question is whether it's worth it to pinch pennies on the kids to keep Trouba or have to scrimp at other positions (ie, we can't afford a second line center worth a damn). Every offseason that goes by he has less and less value as he gets passed by our prospects like Miller is about to do to him (and Schneider won't be that far behind).

It's an issue today and the issue is only getting to be more and more of a problem over time, especially when Game 5 was the first game he's really shown up all series.

Based on his scouting report, he reads more as a possible 4th line option than a serious potential scoring threat.

NYR may have a vacancy at 4C. Rooney hasn't been as good since his return from injury. Goodrow looks really nice on the 4th line but they paid him 3.6 million to play on the 3rd.

The Rangers have been trying to get the next Boyle for a while now. Shooting at guys like Gettinger, Rempe, Barron, Edstrom. Rangy guys that can cover a lot of ice defensively with their stick reach.

Justin Richards had a disappointing season in the AHL.

Not sure I see a long term spot here for Goodrow if not on the fourth line.

Unless they are moving Kravtsov out for a nothing return, but that again would be horrific mismanagement that should cost Drury his job.

 

[duhmetreE]

Miller and Trouba are the top pair. Fox has shown all series that for him to be good, he needs Lindgren. I am not so sure 9.5 for Fox was that great.

It's not that 9.5M was too much, it's 'fair' but I just really believe we could have gotten him for less.

 

[Ola]

If theres someone who slips to the mid 1st in this draft ala Tarasenko, I wouldn't mind making that move at this point.

Maybe this isn't the year to do it, but his future is either in a deal like that or packaged with other pieces for a bigger fish. I agree that sooner is better for moving him, his value has already dropped compared to where it was last year at this time.

For sure. And just for another prospect. For these kids it’s all about opportunity. Schneider gets to play because we don’t have 3 vet guys there. If we have Fox, Trouba and a right shooting Lindgren.

We have talked about Turcotte, but he is just one guy. I like Elmer Söderblom a lot. Would trade Nils for him. Definitely wouldn’t mind trading Nils for someone who projects as a depth forward if he would be a good fit as a depth forward.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Fox at 9.5 and Zibanejad at 8.5 are below market value for the player. Maybe they aren't "value" deals but they are below market value. Look at other comparable player contracts.

Trouba is here and he has a ton of value until Schneider truly arrives then he becomes a bit redundant. You guys are debating moving Trouba in the offseason in the midst of a playoff....just enjoy the playoffs and have this conversation in the offseason, no?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

maybe the next Zuccarello maybe not at 27 a bit late though right?

Hopefully not the playoff Zuccarello.

 

[haohmaru]

No, Fox is a Norris winner and is way better than Trouba on-ice. Silly argument. Your better bet would be to tell me that Trouba is more important than Miller cause at least that is borne out by stats. I'm projecting on Miller, but I'll stand by that assertion too.

I said that Fox and Trouba have been roughly equal since mid January. Your graphs and charts do absolutely nothing to address that argument. At all. Have I said that Trouba is a better player than Fox? Anywhere? No. No, I haven't.

Spare me the "I've played" nonsense. Not only is it basically unverifiable but it's also pretty meaningless. I like it when I get told "you've clearly never managed people before," too, that's a good one. Considering it's completely ignorant of my background. How would anyone know if either of us played before? Maybe I'm Mark Messier.

Those things have value, but they aren't measurable, and so I'm not interested in having a debate about them because I've learned very clearly that too many people here aren't interested in a good faith debate when these characteristics enter the conversation.

It's like the silly "playoff experience," argument. People act like it's a trump card. It isn't. Neither is "leadership."

It has value. It doesn't make him more valuable than Fox. Or Miller.

I'm not going to spare you shit. If you haven't been in a room and experienced being on a hockey team then you can't really talk about the room. "Managing people" has nothing do with this argument whatsoever but you're good at deflecting and refuting arguments that I haven't made. If you believe there's nothing to it, playoff experience doesn't matter, leadership is bullshit, etc... Good for you. Your managing style, then, will NEVER win in the NHL.

Fox and Trouba are not of equal value in anyone's mind except a few posters on this board. It's ridiculous.

I've said they've been roughly equal since January and through the playoffs. Nothing you've said or posted has refuted that.

I would say it did mean a lot. You asking that question is demonstrative of what you aren't getting about this debate.

So intangibles DO matter then? You aren't getting what my point was, obviously.

Oh, so we can extend Kakko to a long term deal and sign a 2nd line center no problem then?

Hey, I don't argue we have serious issues. We do. However, I don't think moving Trouba is realistic.

Come on.

It's an issue.

The question is whether it's worth it to pinch pennies on the kids to keep Trouba or have to scrimp at other positions (ie, we can't afford a second line center worth a damn). Every offseason that goes by he has less and less value as he gets passed by our prospects like Miller is about to do to him (and Schneider won't be that far behind).

I'm saying that Trouba won't waive and the Rangers won't ask for a couple of years anyway. The cap is a serious problem, no doubt about it, but I don't see Trouba going elsewhere. Whatever the cap issues are, it won't be addressed by Trouba going elsewhere over the summer. I just don't see it happening.

 

[haohmaru]

Spare me the "I've played" nonsense. Not only is it basically unverifiable but it's also pretty meaningless.

You know, thinking about this a bit further. Don't take my word for it - listen to the players and the coaches. They talk about the room, presence in the room, leadership, etc... A while back they were talking about Goodrow and how important he is to the team in the locker room - experience, a calming presence, leadership, etc... How they talked about Lindgren coming back and how important it was that he got back in there and gave the entire team a lift. Same for Trouba - tons of players acknowledging how important he is to the team and the young defenseman. I realize you think this is plug and play and X can take the place of Y etc... but chemistry isn't all that simple and finding players that play for each other can be a difficult thing. Who is taking Trouba's spot as a leader, mentor, physical guy on the back end that will protect his teammates? Lindgren? I think he's still a little young for that role. Nemeth? Braun? You can believe what you want, but those elements are part of the contract that you complain about.

 

[egelband]

Merged posts need to go, or be optional at least. Can we escalate this? I can’t like a merged post unless I like all the merged ideas/comments. That’s annoying. Also, can’t reply to part of a merged post, I believe. It’s counter productive to a board like this. Unless the idea is to limit discussion?

 

[mas0764]

I said that Fox and Trouba have been roughly equal since mid January.... Have I said that Trouba is a better player than Fox?

But they aren't even roughly equal.

I'm not going to spare you shit. If you haven't been in a room and experienced being on a hockey team then you can't really talk about the room. "Managing people" has nothing do with this argument whatsoever but you're good at deflecting and refuting arguments that I haven't made. If you believe there's nothing to it, playoff experience doesn't matter, leadership is bullshit, etc... Good for you. Your managing style, then, will NEVER win in the NHL.

Zzzzzz.

Ok then yes I've played on a hockey team before.

I've said they've been roughly equal since January and through the playoffs. Nothing you've said or posted has refuted that.

They haven't and I posted something showing they are not even close.

If you choose to believe in fairy tales that is on you.

So intangibles DO matter then? You aren't getting what my point was, obviously.

Of course intangibles matter.

They are too .... intangible .... to be really definitive when the stats show drastic on-ice differences though.

By any measurement Trouba is distant behind Fox, Miller is in the process of passing him, and Schneider will pass him in the not too distant future. His intangibles, which do matter, are not going to overcome these facts. You know Miller and Schneider also have intangibles.

I'm saying that Trouba won't waive and the Rangers won't ask for a couple of years anyway. The cap is a serious problem, no doubt about it, but I don't see Trouba going elsewhere. Whatever the cap issues are, it won't be addressed by Trouba going elsewhere over the summer. I just don't see it happening.

I doubt it happens this summer either but to go back to what the original quote was, Trouba is no better than our third most important defender and he's gonna be passed by Schneider soon too. And I'd actually say Lindgren, given that Lindgren is better at defending, isn't too far off either.

Ergo the “hole” that would be left by his departure would not be enormous. Other players would soon pick up the slack both in talent and on ice production (measurable) and in “leadership” (unmeasurable and completely subjective and prone to be made up, ie I could argue Fox might be a better leader and you can’t say boo about it).

 

[Boris Zubov]

Fox this season even with his subpar play (compared to last season) was worth more than 10m this season.


Probably not top 5.
Josi
Makar
Hedman
McAvoy
Ekblad


Would be my votes this year

There is no chance in hell that McAvoy finishes ahead of Fox in the Norris vote. Fox may have not been at his best this year, but McAvoy was pretty pedestrian all season. He's raised his game in the series againt Carolina, but that doesn't count toward the results, nor would it be enough to elevate him into the discussion anyway.

 

[IDvsEGO]

There is no chance in hell that McAvoy finishes ahead of Fox in the Norris vote. Fox may have not been at his best this year, but McAvoy was pretty pedestrian all season. He's raised his game in the series againt Carolina, but that doesn't count toward the results, nor would it be enough to elevate him into the discussion anyway.

McAvoy had a fantastic season. He had less points than fox, but defensively he was better. I love fox, but I'm also aware enough that I can remove some of my homer bias.

 

[Boris Zubov]

McAvoy had a fantastic season. He had less points than fox, but defensively he was better. I love fox, but I'm also aware enough that I can remove some of my homer bias.

Not homer bias in the least on my end, I'm not the biggest Fox fan TBH. Needs to work on his skating & hit the weight room, IMO....but even with that said McAvoy disappeared for weeks at a time this year.

Fox was still the better player & stats are all that matter in these dumb award votes. Being a better defensive defenseman hasn't mattered since Rod Langway won the award.