Speculation: Realistic return for Devils UFA's

[NJDevs26]

i'm not trying to be a dick, but for the second post in a row i'm really not following your logic with any of this so i'm just going to drop it. i will say that i think you have me confused with someone else regarding subban and severson and whatever else, or maybe i'm reading that wrong too. in fairness, i haven't had my coffee yet.

I was not talking about you with those examples, they were from the poster who started this rabbit hole discussion and is perpetually indignant why people always think his proposals are overpays or desperation moves if not both.

 

[Guttersniped]

you're talking to the same people who wouldn't trade nico for pettersson lol. and interestingly enough, those same people who loved EP's struggles to start the year have gotten awfully quiet in the around the league thread. par for the course.

the homerism with nico is off the charts. and of course, like you did, i have to add a disclaimer that nico is a great player and i like him very much.

personally, if columbus offered a signed laine for nico i would do it in a heartbeat. but they won't.

People can keep adding random examples of “Nico homerism”, even though I’ve never said Hischier is better than Petersson in my life, but it actually doesn’t bolster the argument for trading a top line center for a winger who doesn’t drive play and mainly feasts on the power play. I’m not hating on Laine here, I would love to have him, but he’s great complementary player. (I don’t even care that much about the contract though that’s an added wrinkle. Also, Laine gets points for not breaking his leg and face but I’m assuming Nico is not actually cursed or something.)

Columbus lost their emergency trade with Winnipeg or are you arguing a team with Boone Jenner or Riley Nash or whoever at 1C and 2C is worth getting Laine for? Roslovic is a nice player and is playing more minutes but not centering CBJ’s top line. Winnipeg got the “best player” in Dubois. Wingers aren’t “best players” unless they can drive play and do more 5v5. This isn’t about Nico being overrated this about Laine being overrated in a mania about getting “Jack his winger”. I get it, we need scoring, but this trade would be a dumb way to get it.

My idea of team building doesn’t involve getting one scoring center and calling it a day, we need two and we shouldn’t trade one of the two we have away unless the return was amazing. Again, I would argue anyone who could watch this current team and not see the void at center (Zacha is better at wing, Zajac is 35, McLeod doesn’t score enough to play above the 4th line, etc) and to think we are in a position to sacrifice Nico for Laine of all players is delusional.

I might theoretically (he’s our signed Captain so we need to ignore reality a bit to imagine this) trade Nico for a star winger who can drive play on a line with Pavel Zacha but I wouldn’t trade him for Laine just because Shero didn’t draft enough elite forward talent and Jack needs his NHL Cole Caufield (adult-sized preferably).

FWI The one of the best chances to have gotten those scorers was all the 2nds Shero traded, that’s where people find the most elite offense talent outside of 1st, but that’s just spilled milk I cry over from time to time at this point. (We drafted nine times in first two rounds in five years with Shero and that’s bonkers.)

 

[Nocashstyle]

Obviously an extreme example, but with Michael Ryder, we all saw what it looks like when a player who only brings one asset isn’t scoring.

Granted, Laine is 100x times the scorer and player Ryder was, but the point is Laine can sometimes turn into an enigma for long stretches of time and it’s incredibly frustrating. I’d still love him on the Devils as he brings an asset at an elite level that the Devils do not have, but certainly not at the expense of Hischier. With Hischier, at least he impacts the game pretty much every night even if he’s not on the score sheet.

 

[MartyOwns]

People can keep adding random examples of “Nico homerism”, even though I’ve never said Hischier is better than Petersson in my life, but it actually doesn’t bolster the argument for trading a top line center for a winger who doesn’t drive play and mainly feasts on the power play. I’m not hating on Laine here, I would love to have him, but he’s great complementary player. (I don’t even care that much about the contract though that’s an added wrinkle. Also, Laine gets points for not breaking his leg and face but I’m assuming Nico is not actually cursed or something.)

Columbus lost their emergency trade with Winnipeg or are you arguing a team with Boone Jenner or Riley Nash or whoever at 1C and 2C is worth getting Laine for? Roslovic is a nice player and is playing more minutes but not centering CBJ’s top line. Winnipeg got the “best player” in Dubois. Wingers aren’t “best players” unless they can drive play and do more 5v5. This isn’t about Nico being overrated this about Laine being overrated in a mania about getting “Jack his winger”. I get it, we need scoring, but this trade would be a dumb way to get it.

My idea of team building doesn’t involve getting one scoring center and calling it a day, we need two and we shouldn’t trade one of the two we have away unless the return was amazing. Again, I would argue anyone who could watch this current team and not see the void at center (Zacha is better at wing, Zajac is 35, McLeod doesn’t score enough to play above the 4th line, etc) and to think we are in a position to sacrifice Nico for Laine of all players is delusional.

I might theoretically (he’s our signed Captain so we need to ignore reality a bit to imagine this) trade Nico for a star winger who can drive play on a line with Pavel Zacha but I wouldn’t trade him for Laine just because Shero didn’t draft enough elite forward talent and Jack needs his NHL Cole Caufield (adult-sized preferably).

FWI The one of the best chances to have gotten those scorers was all the 2nds Shero traded, that’s where people find the most elite offense talent outside of 1st, but that’s just spilled milk I cry over from time to time at this point. (We drafted nine times in first two rounds in five years with Shero and that’s bonkers.)

that's all reasonable enough, but i don't place as much importance on guys that 'drive play' and that seems to be your main thrust for not wanting to trade nico for laine if that was an option.

give me the guy who scores a goal every other game over someone who 'drives play'

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

People can keep adding random examples of “Nico homerism”, even though I’ve never said Hischier is better than Petersson in my life, but it actually doesn’t bolster the argument for trading a top line center for a winger who doesn’t drive play and mainly feasts on the power play. I’m not hating on Laine here, I would love to have him, but he’s great complementary player. (I don’t even care that much about the contract though that’s an added wrinkle. Also, Laine gets points for not breaking his leg and face but I’m assuming Nico is not actually cursed or something.)

Columbus lost their emergency trade with Winnipeg or are you arguing a team with Boone Jenner or Riley Nash or whoever at 1C and 2C is worth getting Laine for? Roslovic is a nice player and is playing more minutes but not centering CBJ’s top line. Winnipeg got the “best player” in Dubois. Wingers aren’t “best players” unless they can drive play and do more 5v5. This isn’t about Nico being overrated this about Laine being overrated in a mania about getting “Jack his winger”. I get it, we need scoring, but this trade would be a dumb way to get it.

My idea of team building doesn’t involve getting one scoring center and calling it a day, we need two and we shouldn’t trade one of the two we have away unless the return was amazing. Again, I would argue anyone who could watch this current team and not see the void at center (Zacha is better at wing, Zajac is 35, McLeod doesn’t score enough to play above the 4th line, etc) and to think we are in a position to sacrifice Nico for Laine of all players is delusional.

I might theoretically (he’s our signed Captain so we need to ignore reality a bit to imagine this) trade Nico for a star winger who can drive play on a line with Pavel Zacha but I wouldn’t trade him for Laine just because Shero didn’t draft enough elite forward talent and Jack needs his NHL Cole Caufield (adult-sized preferably).

FWI The one of the best chances to have gotten those scorers was all the 2nds Shero traded, that’s where people find the most elite offense talent outside of 1st, but that’s just spilled milk I cry over from time to time at this point. (We drafted nine times in first two rounds in five years with Shero and that’s bonkers.)

This sums up my feelings pretty much better than I could.

 

[My3Sons]

As someone who hasn't focused on watching Laine play, I am curious what he brings to the table as a player beyond what Palms does aside from the extra 10 goals? If Palms is seen as roughly a 30 goal scorer and Laine is roughly a 40 goal scorer that is nice but I don't see that changing the team's fortunes in a vacuum. Is the idea that Laine is a 50 goal winger with Jack? Some of the criticism of Palms is that he doesn't do much when he isn't scoring. Laine sounds a bit the same from what I've read. If Laine scores 50 with Jack then a signed Laine would make a lot of sense, even for Captain Pegleg. If Laine is more of a bigger stronger somewhat, but not dramatically, better version of a Palms player it probably isn't the answer for NJ. I agree that Jack needs wingers and his success will drive NJ but without support it won't matter. Look at EDM look at BUF look at any one line team. NJ has to somehow get Jack's wingers without gutting the infrastructure it is building. At this point you'd expect Laine to want to get to UFA status so it's just a hypothetical exercise.

 

[Eggtimer]

As someone who hasn't focused on watching Laine play, I am curious what he brings to the table as a player beyond what Palms does aside from the extra 10 goals? If Palms is seen as roughly a 30 goal scorer and Laine is roughly a 40 goal scorer that is nice but I don't see that changing the team's fortunes in a vacuum. Is the idea that Laine is a 50 goal winger with Jack? Some of the criticism of Palms is that he doesn't do much when he isn't scoring. Laine sounds a bit the same from what I've read. If Laine scores 50 with Jack then a signed Laine would make a lot of sense, even for Captain Pegleg. If Laine is more of a bigger stronger somewhat, but not dramatically, better version of a Palms player it probably isn't the answer for NJ. I agree that Jack needs wingers and his success will drive NJ but without support it won't matter. Look at EDM look at BUF look at any one line team. NJ has to somehow get Jack's wingers without gutting the infrastructure it is building. At this point you'd expect Laine to want to get to UFA status so it's just a hypothetical exercise.

It is more than simply 10 goals a year added benefit.
When you have an elite finisher , it does multiple things.
On the PP it makes teams alter their PK to ensure that the guy with a laser beam shot is covered , allowing more ice for the other PP players.
It boosts confidence for the players setting them up . Having an actual finisher for Hughes would help his game big time.
Also , getting timely PP goals help sway the momentum of the entire game. There have been a handful of times where a PP goal of our own would have been key in victories / continuing momentum / boost confidence.
With a 40 goal scorer in the lineup , all it takes sometimes is one decent scoring opportunity to bury a goal. Once again , this is huge for how it effects the team positively . How many times have the devils dominated play 5 on 5 only to surrender one scoring chance and that chance is finished , and takes all the momentum and confidence out of the players and changes the entire game on one play. Having a game breaker / finisher of our won would have numerous benefit besides simply adding 10 goals to the teams totals at the end of the year.
We have never had a player like that or its been ages since we had one like Kovy / Mogilny

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

At this point I think I might be cool with Palmieri for a package of 20-22 year old "failed" prospects in the Kuokkanen mold. Throw them into the lineup post deadline and see if they have what it takes in the NHL. One of our competitive advantages is we have NHL ice time to give young players, NHL GMs are not perfectly skilled at determining who does and doesn't have NHL ability, and we are paying a bunch of scouts (right?) to find such players. If we do this and get lucky enough that one of these guys can play with Hughes then it's a homerun trade.

 

[Eggtimer]

As much as I think we have to have at least one elite finisher on the team before they have any sustained success and are seen as contenders , there is no way in hell that trading Nico is part of trying to get that elite finisher.
Hopefully Holtz becomes that but that is 1/2/3 years away yet.
I would trade pretty much anything and everything we have to package together for a elite finisher, thing is , quantity usually will not get you that.
Nico Hughes Smith Mercer Holtz Blackwood Severson is your core.
If you can get a Laine TYPE of player for a package of picks and prospects like Bratt Boqvist plus a 1st round pic , I would not hesitate for a second. We could be waiting another decade to find a player like Laine and it never comes. We need to have a for sure thing now while we have a very good core . Not a pile of prospects and picks that MIGHT be good in 2/3/4 years.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

Laine is approaching that Matt Murray stage last offseason where he's arbitration eligible, and not worth what he would likely get as a reward. So you either have to "overpay" him or lose him for nothing. I'd stay far away.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Hischier should be the last person we consider trading. He is our best player and I personally value him above Hughes. He plays a very complete game and competes hard every shift. I think he can become a point per game player too if he plays the way he played in his last two games. Nico will be our top line center for a long time. Even if Hughes takes off offensively Nico will play against the other teams top players. Hughes is not good defensively and turns pucks over like crazy. Hopefully he does but theirs no guarantee he becomes a top offensive player in the league either. He has underwhelmed to this point and it’s stupid for people to blame that on not having an elite sniper on his wing. That would certainly help but we have multiple other players that are doing better in terms of assists than Jack with these poor finishers on our team.

 

[glenwo2]

i'm not trying to be a dick, but for the second post in a row i'm really not following your logic with any of this so i'm just going to drop it. i will say that i think you have me confused with someone else regarding subban and severson and whatever else, or maybe i'm reading that wrong too. in fairness, i haven't had my coffee yet.

This is my surprised face. (yes, I also look like Brian Gibbons a little)

 

[Blackjack]

This is my surprised face. (yes, I also look like Brian Gibbons a little)

There really is a whole ass tab of "Monkey" smilies.

 

[glenwo2]

There really is a whole ass tab of "Monkey" smilies.

Yeah. Never understood their purpose.

I only use them when mentioning Gibbons but that's it.

There's also a dancing monkey in the "Dance" tab, too.

 

[My3Sons]

Oh...I thought Laine was the realistic return for Murray. Well crap.

No, my guess is NJ would have to include Kulikov AND one of Gusev or Merkley in any deal for Laine.

 

[Blackjack]

No, my guess is NJ would have to include Kulikov AND one of Gusev or Merkley in any deal for Laine.

As long as we get to keep Butcher.

 

[Emperoreddy]

No one wants to sign here...so let's trade the one talented player who JUST committed long term to the team.

The logic here is asinine.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Discussing hypothetical trades isn’t the issue, getting wrapped up in why people call them out is. At least the Lou-Shero stuff, as circular as it gets, is still arguing over stuff that actually happened. Even arguing conceivable rumors like trading Palmieri to Boston is one thing. This is arguing for the sake of arguing.

And pardon me if I don’t take the howls of bias seriously from a guy who was willing to trade Severson AND an unprotected one for Subban, or give Simmonds a 5-30 contract two years ago, and that’s just two off the top of my head. Everyone said those were overpays while this poster cried bias for even suggesting that, we were proven right yet he just goes on claiming everyone else is biased. That isn’t healthy discussion, or as you would say intellectually honest.

I would’ve made that Subban deal back then because Severson was a mediocre player that everyone cuddled because he was wearing a Devils Jersey and hey, we got him for dirt cheap, so good on us.

It’s easy to point the finger at someone who sticks it’s neck out with ideas when you don’t even dip your little toe in the pool. Everyone here had a signing or trade proposal that is absolutely catastrophic.

Coming up with ideas on how to improve our team shouldn’t be an issue and being able to properly evaluate our roster shouldn’t be this complicated but fans will be fans and some will protect their favorite player regardless of the mistakes and brain cramps they do.

We can’t all have the same opinions and that’s cool.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

No one wants to sign here...so let's trade the one talented player who JUST committed long term to the team.

The logic here is asinine.

So I guess what happened to Adam Larsson really weighed hard on Nico before he inked his deal. The guy got paid, the rest is out of his hands. Ironically, Subban was also moved before his LTC kicked in as well as his NMC but it didn’t stop players on the Habs to sign LTC now did it.

This notion that no one will sign here after a guy will get moved a couple of months after signing a big deal is made up by fans. If they’re really worried, they would ask for a NTC/NMC.

 

[NJDevs26]

His underlying point wasn’t that players wouldn’t sign here because we trade Nico per se, it’s that they aren’t signing here now as it is so trading one of the few that does only exacerbates an already existing issue.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

His underlying point wasn’t that players wouldn’t sign here because we trade Nico per se, it’s that they aren’t signing here now as it is so trading one of the few that does only exacerbates an already existing issue.

The basis of my proposal was that Laine would come with an extension because no one in his right mind would give Hischier and his 7 year deal for a guy that might bolt in a couple of years.

Anyways, Nico Hischier to most of our board seems to be the second coming of Pavel Datsyuk and that’s great. What I find comical is that I keep reading in GDT’s that we have no scorers, no shooters and no snipers but when it comes to proposals, we all want to keep our "good players".

If we’re lacking something and want to improve our team, we’ll have to give something of value. If we want to bitch and moan, we’ll continue to shop at the dollar store for guys like Johnsson, Murray, Kulikov, etc.

 

[glenwo2]

All I can say is that I'm glad none of us are the GM.

Because if they were, I'd be rooting for another team until they were fired as some of the Takes here are ridiculous, especially in regards to Nico.

Nico is our Present and our FUTURE.

That's it.

Haters can either deal with that or find something else to do with their time aside from watching Devils hockey.

And besides, there is no Laine to be had nor will there ever be a Laine to be had.

All this talk is just pure nonsense.

EDIT : Speaking of nonsense, the resident Taylor Hall Groupie spouts a ton of it below.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

So about those realistic returns for NJ soon to be UFAs?

Palmieri (50% retained) - 2nd round pick + Prospect
Zajac (50% retained) - 3rd round pick
Murray (50% retained) - 3rd round pick or D prospect
Kulikov - 3rd round pick or D prospect
Gusev (50% retained) - 4th round pick, but it depends if Zajac waives NTC. Otherwise, i think their will be very little interest.
Vatanen - 4th round pick or D prospect
Wedgewood - 5th round pick or G prospect
Dell - 5th round pick or G prospect.

I think Fitzy's preference might be to request prospects in return rather than mid round picks.

Maybe he can find another Kuokkanen type of prospect this trade deadline. A prospect that has had 2 or more years of development and is ready for an NHL shot.

 

[glenwo2]

Palmieri (50% retained) - 2nd round pick + Prospect
Zajac (50% retained) - 3rd round pick
Murray (50% retained) - 3rd round pick or D prospect
Kulikov - 3rd round pick or D prospect
Gusev (50% retained) - 4th round pick, but it depends if Zajac waives NTC. Otherwise, i think their will be very little interest.
Vatanen - 4th round pick or D prospect
Wedgewood - 5th round pick or G prospect
Dell - 5th round pick or G prospect.

I think Fitzy's preference might be to request prospects in return rather than mid round picks.

Maybe he can find another Kuokkanen type of prospect this trade deadline. A prospect that has had 2 or more years of development and is ready for an NHL shot.

I'm also in favor of getting more prospects.

 

[My3Sons]

Palmieri (50% retained) - 2nd round pick + Prospect
Zajac (50% retained) - 3rd round pick
Murray (50% retained) - 3rd round pick or D prospect
Kulikov - 3rd round pick or D prospect
Gusev (50% retained) - 4th round pick, but it depends if Zajac waives NTC. Otherwise, i think their will be very little interest.
Vatanen - 4th round pick or D prospect
Wedgewood - 5th round pick or G prospect
Dell - 5th round pick or G prospect.

I think Fitzy's preference might be to request prospects in return rather than mid round picks.

Maybe he can find another Kuokkanen type of prospect this trade deadline. A prospect that has had 2 or more years of development and is ready for an NHL shot.

I think Kulikov might be in greater demand. He is playing well and affordable. I could see him return a second. I’m skeptical Zajac waives. I don’t see Gusev having any trace value. He’d almost certainly pass through waivers right now. I could see Murray returning a third and an actual decent prospect if he stays healthy until the TDL. I don’t see the team moving a goalie. Don’t they need three this season and need one foe the SEA? It’s a shame NJ is so bad this season and has all these vets that are expiring.