"Pittsburgh Penguins" sale/arena/slots/etc. thread

17*

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I will try and track it down but I am connvinced that both Buffalo and Toronto had already signed off on the amounts for territorial intrusion (25 million each). Until them I admit I am wrong but I will take it with a grain of salt since it is Phil Esposito doing the chirping/

25 million each is probably what the NHL offered the Leafs and the Sabres.

This number makes sense because the expansion fee at the time was 50 million.

My guess is that the Leafs laughed when offered the 25 million.

In the years that followed the 1991 expansion I have heard numbers as high as 100 million as being the asking price for compensation.

If both Buffalo and Toronto signed off as you claim, why was the expansion franchise awarded to Ottawa?

What logical explanation is there for that?
 

william_adams

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I will try and track it down but I am connvinced that both Buffalo and Toronto had already signed off on the amounts for territorial intrusion (25 million each). Until them I admit I am wrong but I will take it with a grain of salt since it is Phil Esposito doing the chirping/

I think you're right, I don't think it was the Leafs that blocked Hamilton, but I think Seymour Knox of the Sabres threw up a pretty big stink about it... Not sure about the 25 million (or whatever) but I recall something firm like that as well...
 

Northern Dancer

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25 million each is probably what the NHL offered the Leafs and the Sabres.

This number makes sense because the expansion fee at the time was 50 million.

My guess is that the Leafs laughed when offered the 25 million.

In the years that followed the 1991 expansion I have heard numbers as high as 100 million as being the asking price for compensation.

If both Buffalo and Toronto signed off as you claim, why was the expansion franchise awarded to Ottawa?

What logical explanation is there for that?

If you listen to this it may explain it. It is a interview with the guy (Gabe Macaluso) that ran the Hamilton bid for expansion back in 1992. The interview is about 11 minutes but just listen to the first 5 minutes the rest is Earl MacRae spouting off with his view which is no better than yours or mine.

There is no doubt that Toronto would want substantial indemification for territorial right infringement but so would any of the other 29 teams if someone would want to move into thier turf. Heck, the New York Islanders had to pay the Rangers 4 million way back in 1970. As mentioned earlier the New Jersey Devils and Anahiem Ducks each paid big bucks. Asking for territorial infrigement fees is very normal, very standard and makes sense, franchises have to protect themselves.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1639-11372/sports/nhlexodus/
 

17*

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According to you link, Hamilton had over 18 thousand season's tickets sold; more than I thought.

They also had 70 companies committed to buying 70 corporate boxes for 5 years.

They had an arena, with a 20 year lease.

They had a local owner with deep pockets: Ron Joyce.

They had 5 million people within a 50 mile radius of the arena.

They had everything the NHL requested.

Ottawa had none of that.

According to Earl McCray, an Ottawa sports writer, the reason Hamilton didn't get a franchise is because Toronto and Buffalo were playing hardball with regard to territorial rights.

It wasn't that a deal couldn't be reached, it was because the NHL didn't want to go through the process of dealing with Hamilton and Buffalo.
 
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Northern Dancer

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According to you link, Hamilton had 18 thousand season's tickets sold, more than I thought.

They also had vast corporate sponsorship.

According to the Ottawa representative, the reason Hamilton didn't get a franchise is because Toronto and Buffalo were playing hardball with regard to territorial rights.

It wasn't that a deal couldn't be reached, it was because the NHL didn't want to go through the process.

OK you listen to the Ottawa guy and I will listen to the Hamilton guy (who ran thier bid) and we shall never agree !!!
 

17*

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Gabe Macaluso was told by the NHL that a franchise in Hamilton was not conducive to the NHL getting a lucrative U.S. television deal.

He was just repeating what the NHL told him.

Was the NHL telling the whole truth?

Seriously, are Americans any more likely to watch an Ottawa team as opposed to a Hamilton team? :dunno:
 

Northern Dancer

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Gabe Macaluso was told by the NHL that a franchise in Hamilton was not conducive to the NHL getting a lucrative U.S. television deal.

He was just repeating what the NHL told him.

Was the NHL telling the whole truth?

Seriously, are Americans any more likely to watch an Ottawa team as opposed to a Hamilton team? :dunno:

You asked a question, " If both Buffalo and Toronto signed off as you claim, why was the expansion franchise awarded to Ottawa?"
What logical explanation is there for that?


I tried to answer it.

ps. and yes I think Ottawa is much more marketable than Hamilton
 
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KW-Guy28

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Pure Brilliance by Balsillie

Jim Balsillie is a proven genius by buying the Pens........a team on the verge of erupting into a serious contender for the Cup. A team in financial trouble........pending a new arena in Pittsburgh.....a move should happen, as Balsillie's intentions were to move the team anyways. He now states that he intends on keeping the team in Pittsburgh.....yet the politicians aren't pulling through on the "isle of Capri" deal for the new arena.
Moving the team to Kitchener would be a remarkable move on Balsillie's behalf.....a "second Toronto team" would make millions to an already proven billionaire!!! Kitchener has long been the storied franchise of the OHL with the Rangers.....No other teams compare to loyalty other than Ottawa.....and London only exists with the new John Labatts Centre. The waiting list for Kitchener Rangers season tix is two to three years....In Kitchener, and surrounding area, the population base to support an NHL team exists....(no arguement) The money is there to for a new NHL sized arena in K-W since RIM can commit 100 million to the Perimetre Institute for learning......in fact they are oozing in dough...plus K-W is oozing with multi-millionaires as it is the heart of the technology triangle of Canada.
Is my arguement somewhat far-fetched????? Somewhat...especially with such big U.S centres as K.C and Vegas looming on the horizon for a team......however, I don't think that it is that far off as most Americans would believe.....
....Kitchener is out of the 50km infringement zone that would see millions of dollars paid to Toronto, and loosely Buffalo for infringement rights should Hamilton get the team....which has a poor record at supporting teams anyways......(most Hamiltonians would dis-agree...and I have nothing against Steeltown....., but dare I bring up the Steelhawks, Dukes and Bulldogs into the mix......yet alone throw a 20+yr old arena into the mix.......
NHL in Kitchener?......The odds should be on our side!!!!! Rumours and Speculation? Absolutely!!!.....Yet, to say Absolutely NO!!!!! I can't believe in that answer!!!
 

Lobstertainment

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Want to know why the Leafs will become the B team if the Pens move?

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Jordan Staal
Marc-Andre Fleury

Oh yeah, because fans are so willing to throw away the alliegence to just about the only sport team in the world that matters to them for 4 kids.

You could move them to any city and they would get fans of course but the number of fans wouldn't even come close to the Leafs. Think Clippers and Lakers, in LA it's the Lakers and the Clippers get support from LA fans but if it's the Clipper and Lakers playing it's fairly obvious who the fans pull for.
 

discostu

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Ottawa's Bid

Regarding why Ottawa got the franchise despite Hamilton, the story that I've heard from Bruce Firestone (who was leading the bid for Ottawa), was the reason that Ottawa and Tampa won the bid that year, was that they were the only two bids that did not claim to have any problems raising the money for the first installment of the franchise fee. The other teams, when asked that question, said that they were in the process of raising the money, and were in the process of obtaining the funds. Tampa and Ottawa point blank replied that it wasn't the issue.

Whether that is true or not, it's the story coming from the horse's mouth. While I find it hard to believe that a multi-million dollar organization would be so short-term focused, it does seem to be consistent with how the NHL was run at the time.
 

17*

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That seems far-fetched when you consider what kind of money Ron Joyce had at the time.

According to wikipedia, Firestone had a hard time borrowing the money for the expansion fee.

Gabe Macaluso states there were 27 MPs that were backing the Ottawa bid.

Nice democracy.

The reason they backed Ottawa was because they were told up front that Hamilton would never get a team.

Too bad those MPs never mentioned that to Macaluso.

Too bad those MPs also failed to tell Firestone and his group that there would be little government support for the Ottawa arena and the roads leading to it.

:banghead:
 

discostu

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That seems far-fetched when you consider what kind of money Ron Joyce had at the time.

According to wikipedia, Firestone had a hard time borrowing the money for the expansion fee.

Gabe Macaluso states there were 27 MPs that were backing the Ottawa bid.

Nice democracy.

The reason they backed Ottawa was because they were told up front that Hamilton would never get a team.

Too bad those MPs never mentioned that to Macaluso.

Too bad those MPs also failed to tell Firestone and his group that there would be little government support for the Ottawa arena and the roads leading to it.

:banghead:

MPs may have supported the Ottawa bid, but, didn't back it up with any actual support in terms of any subsidization, or any assistance by the government.

Meanwhile, the election of teh Bob Rae government presented several roadblocks for the Ottawa bid. Before the provincial elections, David Peterson was scheduled to travel with Ottawa to the bid ceremonies, to show his support. The upset of the NDP that year changed all of that.

Rae was not supportive of the bid, as, the Hamilton area was a key area of support for the NDP. As such, after the election, the Ottawa bid was notified that the premier would not be attending the bid ceremonies (obviously) and that attempts to build the Senators arena would be blocked through the rezoning efforts for the land, and, the lack of the government funded infrastructure. According to Firestone, these efforts were tied back to key individuals in the Hamilton area that were trying to weaken Ottawa's bid.


Regarding the expansion fee, I entirely agree that Firestone had difficulties, while the Hamilton bid was more secure. From the conversations I've had with Firestone, the fact that they didn't present any difficulties to the NHL on raising the funds was the key. While other bids may have been more secure, according to Firestone, the fact that they didn't unequivocaly say that there were no problems raising the funds for the expansion fee, was enough to set them back in the eyes of the NHL.

I fully acknowledge that Ottawa should not have received a franchise that day, if the NHL was basing their decisions on what was best for their economic interests. Ottawa was a team without an arena, without land to build an arena, and was severely undercapitalized at the time. The land issues resulted in the arena being scaled back, and the delays resulted in increased costs. The undercapitalization resulted in the bankruptcy ten years later. The only reason they did win the franchise was apparently a very persistent and ambitious presentation of their bid.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Eklund with some info...

For the longest time my friends in the Pennsylvania Government and the people who are very much on top of the battle for Pittsburgh’s slot license have basically said that the Isle of Capri bid was likely to lose out to Harrah’s, and the Pens future was more hazy.

Apparently two events in the last few days have changed that likelihood. First, the Penguins sale to an extremely financially stable hockey person, Jim Balsillie and a recent buyout offer for Harrah’s has created some questions as to who will own Harrah’s. The feeling is that this instability coupled with the upcoming November elections in PA may have given the politicians who are set to announce the decision on December 20th the perfect “out†and excuse to grant the more popular Isle of Capri the license.

The Isle of Capri has promised over $200 Million to help the Pens build a new arena, and reportedly Jim Balsillie has been told that if a new arena is built it will be extremely hard for him to move the franchise. Balsillie bought the team with the intention of keeping the team in Pittsburgh as long as the arena issue was resolved.

That looks more likely today.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=3156
 

hockeytown9321

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Regarding why Ottawa got the franchise despite Hamilton, the story that I've heard from Bruce Firestone (who was leading the bid for Ottawa), was the reason that Ottawa and Tampa won the bid that year, was that they were the only two bids that did not claim to have any problems raising the money for the first installment of the franchise fee. The other teams, when asked that question, said that they were in the process of raising the money, and were in the process of obtaining the funds. Tampa and Ottawa point blank replied that it wasn't the issue.

Whether that is true or not, it's the story coming from the horse's mouth. While I find it hard to believe that a multi-million dollar organization would be so short-term focused, it does seem to be consistent with how the NHL was run at the time.


That's consistent with Gil Stein's account in his book.
 

Maken*

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NHL in Kitchener?......The odds should be on our side!!!!! Rumours and Speculation? Absolutely!!!.....Yet, to say Absolutely NO!!!!! I can't believe in that answer!!!

You are correct, sir. The fact is that if Balsillie wants to move the team here, he will, Isle of Capri or no. It was stated on the fan590 earlier today that even if the IOC bid wins out, which seems unlikely due to the political contacts of at least one of the other bidders, there is still a very easy way for Jim to get out of that deal. That out lies in the projected cost of the arena exceeding 290 million.
 

willie

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Kitchener-Waterloo is a very, very, very legitimate potential location.

Over 500,000 people with Guelph. (think Anaheim)

Heart of Canada's high tech hub. (think Raleigh, San Jose)

Lots of Corporate support. (not only locally based but 'supermajors' like Microsoft who invest in UWaterloo and Toyota with Cambridge)

Lots of relatively rich high tech workers.

A roughly 1 hour drive from Toronto. And London.

And now a Waterloo-based owner.

Pittsburgh fans need to hope that Carnegie-Mellon & the state can give him the incentive to stay. Because there is a cash cow sitting up north.
 

Corban

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You people are completly delusional. All you see is Canada....and you think Canada is the end all of everything. I do not hate Canada in any way, I actually love it up there. But soooo many of you think you know what you are talking about, and you think you know the suitation that is going on here in Pittsburgh. Well you don't.

The Pens are here to stay. And get your dam claws into some other team that deserves to be moved. If you actually are a fan of the NHL then you know that Pittsburgh is a GREAT hockey market with a lot of history.
 

discostu

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You people are completly delusional. All you see is Canada....and you think Canada is the end all of everything. I do not hate Canada in any way, I actually love it up there. But soooo many of you think you know what you are talking about, and you think you know the suitation that is going on here in Pittsburgh. Well you don't.

The Pens are here to stay. And get your dam claws into some other team that deserves to be moved. If you actually are a fan of the NHL then you know that Pittsburgh is a GREAT hockey market with a lot of history.

You should read the thread before you start calling people delusional. People are discussing the prospect of moving the team to Southern Ontario in the event that Pittsburgh doesn't get the arena (which looks like they will). How is any of that delusional?
 

Corban

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Thanks. I have read the entire thread (since the 1st day it was posted). And I still come up with the same answer....delusional.

To put another team in "SO" right now would not be a great move by any means for the NHL. It's really that simple, and none of you can understand this.

Why??? Because you are trying to be greedy. You think that Canada deserves hockey more than anywhere else. Well you are sadly mistaken. I'm all for another team moving back to Canada, but this team (Pens) is not that team. And I really don't think that "SO" is the right place for it in the future.
 

discostu

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Thanks. I have read the entire thread (since the 1st day it was posted). And I still come up with the same answer....delusional.

To put another team in "SO" right now would not be a great move by any means for the NHL. It's really that simple, and none of you can understand this.

Why??? Because you are trying to be greedy. You think that Canada deserves hockey more than anywhere else. Well you are sadly mistaken. I'm all for another team moving back to Canada, but this team (Pens) is not that team. And I really don't think that "SO" is the right place for it in the future.

I'm not sure where you finding people making claims that SO deserves a team. Unfortunately, hockey is a business, and that dictates where teams go. It looks like the Pittsburgh will get the slot license, so, it will keep its team. That's all that really matters. If it doesn't get it, it's pretty much a given that the team will move. It won't be because Pittsburgh doesn't "deserve" a team, it will be because the region will not have the infrastructure available to make it economicly viable.

The fact that it was a Waterloo based billionaire that has purchased the team is the reason for the speculation for Southern Ontario. If it was bought by a Seattle based owner, there would be speculation about moving it there.

The fact that you thnk another team should move to Southern Ontario instead is rather telling. What makes another team deserving of that fate, rather than the Penguins?
 

Corban

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Umm no. I don't think another team in "SO" would be good. I was talking about somewhere else in Canada.

And again here you go talking about stuff that you have NO CLUE about.

"If it doesn't get it, it's pretty much a given that the team will move"

Ahh, so I guess there is no back up plan in place....dam sux for us......

Wrong.... what about Plan B???

Or you might be of the same mind set as your fellow Canadian (again I like Canada so not trying to insult)..

"Pittsburgh fans need to hope that Carnegie-Mellon & the state can give him the incentive to stay. Because there is a cash cow sitting up north."

Carnegie-Mellon.....hahahahahahaha

Like I said you know nothing about what is going on here in Pittsburgh.
 

Corban

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discostu- also most everything I have talked about here is pertaining to the "Business" of hockey. And why moving a team out of here and into "SO" would be a terriable move....hence....delusional
 

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