"Pittsburgh Penguins" sale/arena/slots/etc. thread

[sticknrink]

Different scenerio entirely. If that were indeed Bassilie's plan, he will soon find himself between a rock and a hard place that Karamanos never faced. Within 4 months, likely more like 2 months, the slots license will be awarded. If to IOC there is within the sales agreement to Bassillie a clause that forces him to sign a 30 year lease with the city. If either of the other two applicants get the license they are committed to $7 m. per year for 30 years toward an arena, the state, county, etc. a similar amount for a similar period, if the Pens pony up a mere $4 m. per year. Try getting that past the board of Governors to even approve the sale if you do not agree to a similar 30 year lease under those terms..

The only way Mr.RIM can lose any money is if he moves it to Hamilton and it flops.

Hockey is for sure a success in Pittsburgh, it's shown during the Mario years. If I'm him:

Option A) Wait for the slots license, IOC wins and builds arena. I sit on the Penguins for 6-8 years and let them get successful and gain value. There's absolutely no question the Penguins will accrue value as the NHL resurges and the young kids get better and better. 99.99% I will gain money one way or another if I get an arena wait at least half a decade before flipping it.

Option B) No arena, move to Hamilton and fullfill whatever dreams I have. If it fails, I lose money that is a drop in the bucket. If it succeeds, well, hooray.

 

[Corban]

Let me ask you all a question....

What would be best for the NHL?

Pens in Pittsburgh?

Or in some city in Canada?



I think that question is pretty easy. Pittsburgh! They (NHL) need teams in good markets in the United States, not in Canada where they have a fan base that will LOVE hockey no matter what. I can see some teams with not as good of a hockey market taking the move back up north. But Im sorry we here in Pittsburgh LOVE the Penguins and have a history with the NHL.

 

[sticknrink]

Let me ask you all a question....

What would be best for the NHL?

Pens in Pittsburgh?

Or in some city in Canada?

Wrong question.

The better question is: Who's got the money and what are his true intentions?

 

[Corban]

Wrong question.

The better question is: Who's got the money and what are his true intentions?

Thanks for the answer....

 

[Hawker14]

Let me ask you all a question....

What would be best for the NHL?

Pens in Pittsburgh?

Or in some city in Canada?



I think that question is pretty easy. Pittsburgh! They (NHL) need teams in good markets in the United States, not in Canada where they have a fan base that will LOVE hockey no matter what. I can see some teams with not as good of a hockey market taking the move back up north. But Im sorry we here in Pittsburgh LOVE the Penguins and have a history with the NHL.

don't make it a question between the two. withholding a team from a fanbase because they "LOVE hockey no matter what" is silly.

no one should dispute that pittsburgh is a hockey market. but winnipeg was a hockey market too. trust that without the IOC arena, the team staying in pittsburgh is a question mark.

teams moving has nothing to do with the fans. ask any jet, nordique or whaler fan. any owner can rip out your heart, and for enough money, they will.

 

[Corban]

That question was not actually directed to the "Owners", it is more to the people on here (in this tread) that make it seem like any other city in Canada is a better place for the Pens.

 

[The Legend]

I have another suggestion...what about London? I go to school here and trust me the city could support it, bigger than K-W and only about an hour away...I'm not sure if the John Labbatt centre could support an NHL team, but the surrounding area is definitely nice enough(they play preseason games here often, have they ever played them in Kitchener Waterloo?)

 

[Artyukhin*]

i think the notion that Hamiltion wont or can supprot a team is pretty
naive on alot of people parts.

didnt they sell something like 15,000 season tickets the last time there was expansion talk in something like 24 hours?

im sure with the names Crosby/Maklin they'd sell the entire joint out now in probally 24 hours or less

 

[GSC2k2*]

i think the notion that Hamiltion wont or can supprot a team is pretty
naive on alot of people parts.

didnt they sell something like 15,000 season tickets the last time there was expansion talk in something like 24 hours?

im sure with the names Crosby/Maklin they'd sell the entire joint out now in probally 24 hours or less

Anyone who thinks Hamilton can support NHL hockey has no clue. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Hamilton has no corporate base. None. I live here.

That, and only that, is what supports NHL hockey in any market.

No one would traipse the 75-90 minutes that it takes in early evening traffic to come to Hamilton from the corporate base in Hamilton. And, yes, that is way more time than it takes to go even from north Toronto to get to the ACC.

Case in point, for those who doubt. Corporate people were having a hard time giving away Canadian Open tickets for Ancaster, which is 10 more minutes up the road. With the Open in Oakville at Glen Abbey, or in north TO at Angus Glen, they are a hot ticket. In the Hamilton area, at a far better venue even - nada.

 

[espo*]

Canada will never get another team, its been proven that no matter how many of you are "die hard fans" and the classic "its our sport" BS, you cant support a team. thats why teams have left.

What do you mean we can't support a team........we have 6.

anyway you cut it,we've got a better chance of getting another club then you guys do of ever having one.

Not that a top pro sports league would ever want to set up shop there anyway.

 

[GSC2k2*]

This is why Mississauga is so key. Mississauga has alot of corporate HQ's. Mississauga is where the Airport is.

As someone who works there, I can tell you the airport has nothing to do with the viabilty of such a franchise. People do not hang around the airport.

And, dollars to donuts, while the distance is much longer (about 70 kms vs 25kms), you could get to Cambridge faster than Downtown Toronto from the airport, including Saturday nights, and especially on weekdays.

As someone who has worked in TO and in Cambridge, I can tell you that my crullers are safe, and you would need to reach into your wallet. The afternoon and evening traffic on the 401 west from Dixie (near the airport) onward is, in a word, horrific. I can get from the airport to a game at the ACC in about 30 minutes tops. K-W is a 90 minute commute.

And, just looking this up now, from where I used to live in Ottawa to Scotiabank place was 36 km, and that is from INSIDE the greenbelt at the East end. Going from Mississauga to an arena in Cambridge wouldn't be much further than that.

As the crow flies, it is a little longer. About 50 miles (75 km), in fact. What's more, as I said above, it is 75 km of hellish traffic.

K-W can't support a team without the Toronto TV rights. It would have to be an arangement allowing Leafs games to be shown in Southern Ontario and the K-W teams games shown in Toronto. The same applies to a Hamilton team. This is obviously a huge mess for the lawyers, but I have a hard time seeing a Hamilton team without Toronto TV rights let alone K-W.

True dat.

Without the Toronto TV market, K-W is a much worse market than Ottawa. The income level isn't as good, their is no arena and the population is about half (TV market would be bigger though). With the Toronto TV market, I think the team would be in a similar position as Ottawa. You can notice a large difference between the size of the two regions from Public Transit, and downtown areas. The ACC is also 1.5 hours away, and requires driving through some of the nastiest traffic. Copps colisium gets concerts, and I saw Nine Inch Nails in London. So, like in Ottawa, it wouldn't get all the big shows, but it would get some.

The ACC is really closer to 2 hours away, but this is silly anyway.

I think the luck is having a billionaire running a company in Waterloo buying the team. The arena would be a HUGE issue, and is one that would almost have to be done out of pocket. Ottawa's arena was basically a mirracle that couldn't happen again. And your right, once Melnyk got the arena and team for half the price of the arena, Ottawa's finances changed from flaky to extremely strong.

No chance. None.

 

[Artyukhin*]

''It was very important for us to keep it here it Pittsburgh,'' said Lemieux. ''I think Jim is committed as long as we build a new arena and we have a fair deal.''



''We are committed to keeping the Penguins in Pittsburgh, provided the team has a new building,'' NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly



''This has to be done really soon,'' Balsille said. ''I sure hope it's done. I can't see it being spring before this is done. Does anyone want to wait another year?''



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=179841&hubname=






goona be real intresting . there all saying the right things but there is a huge out clause after every statment .

 

[Montrealer]

Anyone who thinks Hamilton can support NHL hockey has no clue. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Hamilton has no corporate base. None. I live here.

It's not the most impressive list, but to say that there's no corporate base at all is not exactly the truth. Also, it's not only head offices that buy season tickets; when I worked in our office in Winnipeg (I work at CN), there were framed Jets season tickets.

Combine that with the whims of a billionaire, and I don't think you can seriously say there's zero chance of Hamilton supporting a team. Unless, of course, the idea drives you crazy for whatever reason.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton,_Ontario

Head offices

Companies with head offices located in Hamilton include:

* Stelco
* Dofasco
* Dell Pharmacy
* First Ontario Credit Union
* BDO Dunwoody
* E.D. Smith
* AIC
* Fortinos
* Nelson Steel
* Coppley Apparel Group
* Taylor Steel
* Lakeport Brewing
* Fox40
* Robertson Building Systems
* Oakrun Farm Bakery

 

[GSC2k2*]

It's not the most impressive list, but to say that there's no corporate base at all is not exactly the truth. Also, it's not only head offices that buy season tickets; when I worked in our office in Winnipeg (I work at CN), there were framed Jets season tickets.

Combine that with the whims of a billionaire, and I don't think you can seriously say there's zero chance of Hamilton supporting a team. Unless, of course, the idea drives you crazy for whatever reason.

Sorry, but with the exception of the two steel majors, those companies are, with all due respect, rinky dink outfits. Quite fine companies, some of them, but when you are talking about selling corporate boxes, you are not talking about companies of that size as viable suitors when they are at the top of the food chain. They are undoubtedly the elite of corporate Hamilton, and you would be lucky to sell five boxes to the lot. You might get a few more from some others you did not mention, like Voortmans in Burlington (where AIC actually is, BTW - not Hamilton). When it comes to buying corporate boxes, though, you might as well throw in Queens Pizza and Wings, Mountain Top Cycle and the Pioneer gas station down on King Street as equally viable candidates.

No, the idea does not drive me crazy. It is just a little laughable. People apparently think we live in a static world where, since Hamilton was under consideration for a franchise a decade ago (and came up short then), the same conditions are ongoing and it should be under consideration now. Life is not static. Hamilton's downtown is a complete doughnut. Copps is, in big league terms, a dump. NHL revenues are now all about chasing corporate buys, both for tix and boxes.

 

[Artyukhin*]

Bettman suggested he couldn't guarantee the Pens would stay but would exhaust every option to make sure it did.

"The only thing that could drive us out of town would be the inability of those in charge of governmental entities to provide a new building," Bettman said.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nhl/story/9707593





State and local government officials have created a backup plan that would involve a monetary outlay by the Penguins, numbers that seem manageable on the surface, but aren't as appealing as not paying at all. Balsillie, who is 45 and has earned a reputation for being a hard-driving businessman, could find those terms to be the perfect excuse to leave.

 

[Montrealer]

Sorry, but with the exception of the two steel majors, those companies are, with all due respect, rinky dink outfits. Quite fine companies, some of them, but when you are talking about selling corporate boxes, you are not talking about companies of that size as viable suitors when they are at the top of the food chain. They are undoubtedly the elite of corporate Hamilton, and you would be lucky to sell five boxes to the lot. You might get a few more from some others you did not mention, like Voortmans in Burlington (where AIC actually is, BTW - not Hamilton). When it comes to buying corporate boxes, though, you might as well throw in Queens Pizza and Wings, Mountain Top Cycle and the Pioneer gas station down on King Street as equally viable candidates.

It wasn't my list; I took it from Wikipedia.

At least I've gotten you to admit that the corporate base is not absolute zero. Before, you were portraying Hamilton as a city full of houses, gas stations, and branch offices.

No, the idea does not drive me crazy. It is just a little laughable. People apparently think we live in a static world where, since Hamilton was under consideration for a franchise a decade ago (and came up short then), the same conditions are ongoing and it should be under consideration now. Life is not static. Hamilton's downtown is a complete doughnut. Copps is, in big league terms, a dump. NHL revenues are now all about chasing corporate buys, both for tix and boxes.

How can you accuse people of living in a static world when you completely leave out of the equation the fact that

-A billionaire from nearby Waterloo wants a team in Hamilton
-He just bought the Penguins
-He holds an NHL exclusivity agreement with Copps Coliseum

This is not the same as ten or twenty years ago. This is a far different situation; Hamilton does not need to be approved by the Board of Governors. If they are able to move (say if the Pittsburgh arena project falls through), there is little the NHL Board of Governors can do to block a move to Hamilton. True, there is the territorial rights question, but apparently he's already getting legal help to prepare to fight that battle.

I'd put the chances of the Penguins in Hamilton in the future at around 10% right now, and that might be low. You, however, find the entire discussion laughable and seem to put the chances at 0%, which is not exactly a reflection of the reality of the circumstances in play here.

 

[Montrealer]

Oh, one more point; don't hold up the Maple Leafs corporate ticketholders as the standard necessary to compete. Luxury boxes definately need to be bought by organizations with money, but tickets do not necessarily have to be bought by corporations. Montreal gets by just fine with the vast majority of tickets being held by ordinary people, and benefits from having actual fans at the game.

From what I've heard, it's nearly impossible for true Leafs fans to get tickets at the ACC (which is horribly sad); the corporate suits seem to hold them all. This isn't exactly what usually happens or even should happen in the NHL, and could even be seen as another possible selling point of a Hamilton franchise.

 

[Artyukhin*]

From what I've heard, it's nearly impossible for true Leafs fans to get tickets at the ACC (which is horribly sad); the corporate suits seem to hold them all. This isn't exactly what usually happens or even should happen in the NHL, and could even be seen as another possible selling point of a Hamilton franchise.

what your hearing is correct .



Brunt maybe sums it up the best saying it might not be Hamiltion
destination .


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061005.wbrunt05/TPStory/Sports/columnists


Balsillie's best option might be something else entirely.

Why not get out that great big tape measure, find the place where the territorial outer limits of the Leafs and Buffalo Sabres intersect, march off 10 paces, and start digging? Maybe that's an empty field beside a four-lane highway in the relative middle of nowhere — in which case, it would be an awful lot like the Ottawa suburb of Kanata, when the Ottawa Senators first made it their home.

Build your own building. Control your own parking. Exploit the real estate play. Make it easy for the Golden Horseshoe's hockey-made millions to get there.

And who's saying you couldn't still call them the Tigers?

 

[Montrealer]

what your hearing is correct .



Brunt maybe sums it up the best saying it might not be Hamiltion
destination .


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061005.wbrunt05/TPStory/Sports/columnists


Balsillie's best option might be something else entirely.

Why not get out that great big tape measure, find the place where the territorial outer limits of the Leafs and Buffalo Sabres intersect, march off 10 paces, and start digging? Maybe that's an empty field beside a four-lane highway in the relative middle of nowhere — in which case, it would be an awful lot like the Ottawa suburb of Kanata, when the Ottawa Senators first made it their home.

Build your own building. Control your own parking. Exploit the real estate play. Make it easy for the Golden Horseshoe's hockey-made millions to get there.

And who's saying you couldn't still call them the Tigers?

He makes some good points. I played around in Streets and Trips, and assuming:

80 km territorial rights:
-Hamilton and Toronto would overlap 60-70% (eyeballing) of their respective territories
-Hamilton and Buffalo would overlap 30-35% of their respective territories
-Hamilton falls within Toronto's 80 km boundary

But if you move over to Kitchener-Waterloo...
-K-W and Toronto would overlap 30-35% of their respective territories
-K-W and Buffalo would either not overlap or overlap less than 5% depending on location
-K-W is outside Toronto's boundary (depending on centerpoint, of course)

If you move to London, you're outside both 80 km boundaries.

Of course, I find it as hard to believe an NHL franchise in K-W or London as gscarpenter believes an NHL franchise in Hamilton, so I don't think we'll see that.

There is the possibility, though, of building 40 km down the 403 and still calling them "Hamilton", while greatly lessening the respective territorial overlaps.

Can anyone confirm how much territory each team has as it's rights? I found 80km here: http://www.canoe.ca/Slam030125/col_zeisberger-sun.html



PS> Oh, and Buffalo-Toronto overlap about 30-35%, but half of that's in Lake Ontario. Was there any compensation for the Leafs when Buffalo came into the league?

 

[Montrealer]

Okay, can anyone answer this one?

Back in 1982 the Colorado Rockies were scouting possible locations to move to, and liked the Meadowlands... BUT the Rangers were insisting that New Jersey was part of their territory. So what changed? Did the Rockies franchise pay the Rangers to be allowed to move to the Meadowlands (which is 10 km from downtown Manhattan)?

This is important... if there is precedent that an existing franchise can't even protect it's territory that close, then Hamilton might not have much of a problem moving into Leafs/Sabres territory.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa... States, Territories and Possessions/Colorado

Peter Gilbert, the Buffalo businessman who owns the Colorado Rockies, has long been unhappy with Denver as the team's home, a circumstance that led him to make overtures to the Meadowlands late last year. But the Rangers' insistence that New Jersey is their territory makes the Rockies' move there appear increasingly unlikely, and so Gilbert is busy scouting other locales. Yesterday he was in Ottawa, where he met with Mayor Marion Dewar in exploratory talks aimed at determining whether that city could support a major league hockey franchise.

 

[Egil]

Perhaps K-W is the loophole for the terretorial rights. It is close enough to Toronto that the entire Western side of the GTO, including half of downtown Toronto would be within their boundry (and therefore, they would be able to show there games in most of Toronto no matter what the Leafs say), but is outside the Leafs boundry (so that Toronto can't stop it from happening by themselves). Not only that, but the Leafs would lose the entire southern ontario market for their TV rights (K-W, London, Windsor), which would be a double whammy. It almost forces the Leafs to relent on a second Toronto team. Under this scenario, I would believe K-W is a bluff to get the Leafs to capitulate on another team in Toronto. Mississauga is probably a better location than Hamilton for a team anyways.

The other possibilty is at the end of the 403, say in Woodstock. This location is accessible from K-W (30 mins), London (30 mins) and Hamilton (40 mins), and would for sure be out of everyones territory. This doesn't seem likely to me as it is passing up on the Toronto TV market while being annoyingly far from its fanbase (but it could be done).

The key is understanding what the territorial rights are. By my calculations, Hamilton is more than 80km from Buffalo, yet it seems that a Hamilton team would have to pay Buffalo.

 

[Phanuthier*]

I don't like this sale. I know RIM quite well (which electrical engineering student doesn't?) and I don't believe RIM will have a very stable future.

 

[Lobstertainment]

I havn't read the whole topic so forgive me if this has been beaten to death.

Let's assume that for whatever reasons they decide to move the team out of Pittsburgh.

They will not

They should not

put a team in southern Ontario. I'm sorry but it would bassicly become the "B" Team. The Leafs already dominate the southern ontario audience, hell there's a hefty population of us in northern Ontario too.

if they did decide to move the team to Canada they have better and more welcoming fan bases in other parts of the country.

 

[sticknrink]

I havn't read the whole topic so forgive me if this has been beaten to death.

Let's assume that for whatever reasons they decide to move the team out of Pittsburgh.

They will not

They should not

put a team in southern Ontario. I'm sorry but it would bassicly become the "B" Team. The Leafs already dominate the southern ontario audience, hell there's a hefty population of us in northern Ontario too.

if they did decide to move the team to Canada they have better and more welcoming fan bases in other parts of the country.

Want to know why the Leafs will become the B team if the Pens move?

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Jordan Staal
Marc-Andre Fleury

 

[sticknrink]

I don't like this sale. I know RIM quite well (which electrical engineering student doesn't?) and I don't believe RIM will have a very stable future.

RIM can have a profitable future if they can resist the pitfalls that befell Palm.