"Pittsburgh Penguins" sale/arena/slots/etc. thread

[discostu]

Umm no. I don't think another team in "SO" would be good. I was talking about somewhere else in Canada.

And again here you go talking about stuff that you have NO CLUE about.

"If it doesn't get it, it's pretty much a given that the team will move"

Ahh, so I guess there is no back up plan in place....dam sux for us......

Wrong.... what about Plan B???

Sorry, I don't see much hope in the plan B. I overstated the the likelihood (or lack thereof), but, the point remains, without the licence, the chances of the team moving are signficant. The fact that the owner is from the Southern ONtario region, and has had a desire to move a team to the area in the past is the biggest source of speculation here.

You seem to be willing to jump on any mis-stated facts, and claim an information superiority, but, others can make the same accussations about you, about not knowing any of the details of the Southern Ontario market. The situation is complex, and how this all plays out is dependant on a lot of variables. While you may feel confident in "Plan B", you have no facts that you're bringing the table that demonstrates why. You're speculating. So are others, which is spurning this discussion.

Nearly everyone in this discussion has tried to show a level of respect to the Pittsburgh fans, saying that they do not want to see the team moved. You'd think that would warrant some respect in return, but, I guess some people are incapable.

 

[willie]

"Pittsburgh fans need to hope that Carnegie-Mellon & the state can give him the incentive to stay. Because there is a cash cow sitting up north."

Carnegie-Mellon.....hahahahahahaha

Like I said you know nothing about what is going on here in Pittsburgh.

Before you reply - stop, take a breath - and approach this issue rationally. I realize fans have an emotional investment in sports teams but we are talking business here. And this requires a rational outlook.

Firstly,

reittsburgh: Pittsburgh is a medium-sized American market that is declining as a result of the manufacturing rust belt that is plaguing most of the mid-west. (see: Detroit, St. Louis, Buffalo) It's population growth is - I'm sure - quite uninspiring. As it's hard industries continue to be hollowed out and companies move down on to the Southern States (or China), Pittsburgh will only continue to decline in economic significance on the North American continent. Unless Carnegie-Mellon can produce a few Jim Balsillie's who can help turn the region into a more funded (ie. more spinoff jobs) research ventures. Of course, C-M is one of the world's top computer science universities on the planet, so there is hope for the future of Pittsburgh's economy.

if the IOC deal falls through to any extent - and Balsillie's hands are no longer legally obligated - there is no doubt he is going to consider a location where he can make more money. And Southern Ontario is one of those locations.

 

[Corban]

Respect..give me a break... O ya I must be one of the ones that are "incapable" (nice insult) of this.

Well Im glad you see no hope in Plan B. And that reason would be????

Let's hear some of your facts about this, and what you know.

 

[discostu]

Respect..give me a break... O ya I must be one of the ones that are "incapable" (nice insult) of this.

Well Im glad you see no hope in Plan B. And that reason would be????

Let's hear some of your facts about this, and what you know.

You started this discussion about all other fans in this thread being delusional. I shouldn't have continued the debate at that level, so, I do apologize, but, when you start off at that level, most discussions usually cannot be salvaged.

The poster above makes solid points, and, I'll likely back out of this discussion at this point. I will answer your question though.

I'm not claiming to "know" that Plan B will fail. I am speculating that it will. Based pm what I know of the deal, and, from what I interpret as being Balsillie's motivation, I think not getting the slot licence would make it extremely difficult to get the arena built. Again, all speculation. That's what people are doing in this thread.

 

[Corban]

Yes I want the Pens to stay here!!! And it is very emotional.

But I also am looking at it from a business aspect. And the best thing for the NHL is to have a team here in Pittsburgh, not to move this team to another market.

We are a great hockey market, and we are in the US. Balsillie will make the most money here in Pittsburgh with a new arena, if it's from IoC or Plan B.

 

[Corban]

discostu - you are speculating that plan B will fail???? Why , as I asked, do you think that this is not going to happen.

You dismiss this idea, and I have no clue why?

Plan B is "viable" , that is what Bettman is looking for. Plan B has to be inline with what the Steelers and Pirates whould have gotten. And guess what right now.. It is! And is negotiable. Which means more for good ole JB.

 

[willie]

Yes I want the Pens to stay here!!! And it is very emotional.

But I also am looking at it from a business aspect. And the best thing for the NHL is to have a team here in Pittsburgh, not to move this team to another market.

We are a great hockey market, and we are in the US. Balsillie will make the most money here in Pittsburgh with a new arena, if it's from IoC or Plan B.

I beg to differ. Southern Ontario would almost surely make more money. KWG (600,000+) is the hub of Canada's high tech industry. London & Toronto (over 5,500,000) are within 1 hour. All regions are growing and growing fast. Pittsburgh - otoh - is declining.

Like I said, Carnegie-Mellon and offshoot industries from that university are essentially the future of the economy of Pittsburgh. And if that school & the state gov't. of Penn. can give proper incentive to Balsillie to stay, he will. If not, he'll pack up and likely head to Southern Ontario where he is assured heavy profits.

Again, I know it is emotional. It sucks for the people of Winnipeg & Quebec that had to lose their teams. But they were just too small and Phoenix & Denver were simply more lucrative ventures. Now it is up to people of those communities to turn those cities into vibrant enough economic clusters so they can earn back their hockey team. (sports franchise are privileges, not rights..)

There is no doubt Pittsburgh is a great sports region. But so is Southern Ontario. And 1 region has an improving economy, while the other economy is currently lagging. If you do lose this team, then the citizens of Pittsburgh need to rally together and force the NHL to bring a team back. Minneapolis-St.Paul did it. Oakland did it. (via San Jose) Losing this franchise doesn't have to be forever.

 

[discostu]

discostu - you are speculating that plan B will fail???? Why , as I asked, do you think that this is not going to happen.

You dismiss this idea, and I have no clue why?

Plan B is "viable" , that is what Bettman is looking for. Plan B has to be inline with what the Steelers and Pirates whould have gotten. And guess what right now.. It is! And is negotiable. Which means more for good ole JB.

It isn't fully up to Bettman though. The new owner has the ultimate decision. The NHL has a great deal of influence on this, but, if there is motivation by the owner to move the team, if the team hasn't committed to a plan B yet, it provides the owner an out. If the NHL pushes for it, the owner can find numerous ways to stall the process, so that deadlines cannot be met.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Yes I want the Pens to stay here!!! And it is very emotional.

But I also am looking at it from a business aspect. And the best thing for the NHL is to have a team here in Pittsburgh, not to move this team to another market.

We are a great hockey market, and we are in the US. Balsillie will make the most money here in Pittsburgh with a new arena, if it's from IoC or Plan B.

Absolutely agree !!!!!

 

[Northern Dancer]

You are correct, sir. The fact is that if Balsillie wants to move the team here, he will, Isle of Capri or no. It was stated on the fan590 earlier today that even if the IOC bid wins out, which seems unlikely due to the political contacts of at least one of the other bidders, there is still a very easy way for Jim to get out of that deal. That out lies in the projected cost of the arena exceeding 290 million.

That sir is rubbish, you think a smart business man will turn down a 290 million (U.S.) facility that he does not have to finance ,in a proven market, to move to the Waterloo area and out of his own pocket build an equivalant rink for over 300 million Cdn ???

Come on, the guy is wealthy for a reason, he is not dumb.
if he were to move the team, it would be to a city with an existing rink that would actually pay him to come. (i.e. Kansas City or Portland). Similiar to the deal Norm Greene got when he moved into Dallas.

If Balsillie is that dumb we should all short R.I.M. !!!

 

[Pens75]

Firstly,

reittsburgh: Pittsburgh is a medium-sized American market that is declining as a result of the manufacturing rust belt that is plaguing most of the mid-west. (see: Detroit, St. Louis, Buffalo) It's population growth is - I'm sure - quite uninspiring. As it's hard industries continue to be hollowed out and companies move down on to the Southern States (or China), Pittsburgh will only continue to decline in economic significance on the North American continent.

http://www.pittsburghfuture.com/index.html

http://www.imaginepittsburgh.com/

 

[kdb209]

It isn't fully up to Bettman though. The new owner has the ultimate decision. The NHL has a great deal of influence on this, but, if there is motivation by the owner to move the team, if the team hasn't committed to a plan B yet, it provides the owner an out. If the NHL pushes for it, the owner can find numerous ways to stall the process, so that deadlines cannot be met.

Yes and no.

There are two seperate issues that must (theoretically) be approved by the league - the sale of the Penguins to Balsillie and a subsequent move to Hamilton/Kitchener-Waterloo.

The league has a lot more leverage over the sale than the relocation - just ask Al Davis.

However the timing of events really works against Balsillie if he does intend to move the Pens - the sale will not likely come before Bettman and the BOG until after the slots licence is awarded. By the time the BOG will vote, either Balsille will be committed to IOC (if they win) or will have a 30 year Plan B lease on his desk awaiting his signature (if they don't). It is very unlikly that the BOG would approve the sale without a binding commitment to either of those plans.

The other wildcard in an attempt to move without league approval is that it might be blocked in Canadian Courts, where the precedent of LA Colliseum vs NFL (The Al Davis / Raiders case) would not be relevant.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Everyone take a breather before you say something you regret.

Seriously.

 

[willie]

http://www.pittsburghfuture.com/index.html

http://www.imaginepittsburgh.com/

That's seriously awesome. I like Pittsburgh and I hope it thrives. It's a great sports town and does deserve a hockey team.

But the first noticeable quote I read was:

It wasn’t just Cincinnati that beat us. 31 of the top 40 regions did. For example, jobs in the Minneapolis region, a region similar to ours in many ways, grew by 2.68% in the past year, triple the rate in Pittsburgh. Seattle grew by 3.56%, quadruple the rate here.

And you can add Southern Ontario to that list of regions that is 'beating' Pittsburgh these days.

I never suggested Pittsburgh/Southwest Pennsylvania is a hopeless region. But it's manufacturing sector is irrevocably in decline. (for the foreseeable future anyway) Of course, they have one of the world's top computer-science universities with Carnegie Mellon. And there are other advantages. But Southwest Pennsylvania does not have as strong an economy as Southern Ontario. (nor, for that matter, does Pennsylvania collectively have a stronger economy than Ontario anymore) These things are cyclical and may change down the line. But Southern Ontario is currently in a much firmer economic footing.

Winnipeg isn't a hopeless situation either. Nor is Quebec. Nor were the Twin Cities and Northern California, who have since seen teams return. You very well might lose this franchise. And it'll be up to the people of Pittsburgh to ensure it is just a temporary thing.

Bottom line: If influential businessmen in the Pittsburgh region/state government don't make it very attractive for Balsillie to stay, he won't. He has a major trump card in his own backyard. (and of course Houston or KC)

 

[discostu]

Yes and no.

There are two seperate issues that must (theoretically) be approved by the league - the sale of the Penguins to Balsillie and a subsequent move to Hamilton/Kitchener-Waterloo.

The league has a lot more leverage over the sale than the relocation - just ask Al Davis.

However the timing of events really works against Balsillie if he does intend to move the Pens - the sale will not likely come before Bettman and the BOG until after the slots licence is awarded. By the time the BOG will vote, either Balsille will be committed to IOC (if they win) or will have a 30 year Plan B lease on his desk awaiting his signature (if they don't). It is very unlikly that the BOG would approve the sale without a binding commitment to either of those plans.

From what I understand, the committment is to slot licence only. It sounds like there has been no committment to a plan B, which is why I think the plan will not fly. If the NHL wanted to ensure that the team stayed regardless of the slot decision, I imagine we would have heard that teh team is committed to Plan B.

 

[Egil]

That sir is rubbish, you think a smart business man will turn down a 290 million (U.S.) facility that he does not have to finance ,in a proven market, to move to the Waterloo area and out of his own pocket build an equivalant rink for over 300 million Cdn ???

Come on, the guy is wealthy for a reason, he is not dumb.
if he were to move the team, it would be to a city with an existing rink that would actually pay him to come. (i.e. Kansas City or Portland). Similiar to the deal Norm Greene got when he moved into Dallas.

If Balsillie is that dumb we should all short R.I.M. !!!

I believe that the IOC offer is binding on the Pens (that is the financed $290 mil stadium). If the IOC is chosen, then the Pens will remain in Pittsburgh. However, Plan B is NOT a fully financed stadium (and the owners contribution would be similar to upgrading Copps Collisium). And THAT is when they might move.

As for these other locations, I don't think that a guy from Southern Ontario is going to move a team from Pittsburgh to Kansas City. It may be nice to have the free stadium, but that doesn't bring in the fans or the revenues. Southern Ontario/GTA is IMHO, the best location for a team to move to at this point. It has the chance to be the most profitable AND the location to maximize the franchise value.

Finally, Pittsburgh with a new rink is an extremely viable market. Without it, they are not. Even if Pittsburgh moves, I could easily see a new team getting moved their IF they built an arena.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

even if pittsburgh does lose this team and then gets a new team in a few years, it would be heartbreaking for pens fans. pittsburgh fans are the ones who have had to watch this putrid team for 5 years, and to see them leave right when they are on the verge of becoming something really special would be a kick to the crotch.

 

[skullman80]

Finally, Pittsburgh with a new rink is an extremely viable market. Without it, they are not. Even if Pittsburgh moves, I could easily see a new team getting moved their IF they built an arena.

No thanks to that....

If this team moves, I won't take another team in. We didn't suffer these past 5 years to only have out team pulled out from under us right when they are turning the corner..

These last 5 years have been absolute suckitude and painful to watch for the most part(except Crosby and a few other brightspots)...

I don't want to start all over again.

 

[skullman80]

Also the IOC news seems to be taking an upswing lately...

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/10043511/detail.html

 

[HandshakeLine]

I know I'm late to the discussion of the viability of Pittsburgh as a market, but The Economist ran an article about a month ago on Pittsburgh's on-going rebirth.

If you have a subscription or want to pay to see the article (it's sadly been taken off the free portion of the website) you can find it here:

http://www.economist.com/world/na/d...=49e74bb-ba6c5c3b-a006-47a8-813e-ab97c31e7909

It's certainly an interesting read from a non-biased, financially conservative, and well-regarded magazine.

 

[Maken*]

That sir is rubbish, you think a smart business man will turn down a 290 million (U.S.) facility that he does not have to finance ,in a proven market, to move to the Waterloo area and out of his own pocket build an equivalant rink for over 300 million Cdn ???

Come on, the guy is wealthy for a reason, he is not dumb.
if he were to move the team, it would be to a city with an existing rink that would actually pay him to come. (i.e. Kansas City or Portland). Similiar to the deal Norm Greene got when he moved into Dallas.

If Balsillie is that dumb we should all short R.I.M. !!!

You're missing the point. He is so rich that he can do whatever he wants. This is what rich people do, they wow you with their wealth. He will wow us by buying an NHL team and moving it into Canada when noone thought it could be done.

 

[Killiecrankie*]

You're missing the point. He is so rich that he can do whatever he wants. This is what rich people do, they wow you with their wealth. He will wow us by buying an NHL team and moving it into Canada when noone thought it could be done.

Your missing the point-if rich people do that they dont stay rich. Its a lot cheaper to own you own private jet than to pay the 400M probably upwards to 500 that it would cost to move the pens to hamilton-and remember none of these candian cities have new arenas which is the damn point in the first place. Sorry canada is not getting another team until there is a new arena.

 

[Killiecrankie*]

also if youve looked at the various sources even with a sold out building he would lost 20M a year in hamilton with their current building, compare that to the 6 or 7m the pens lost last year without parking, concessions, a good lease, and boxes-he would be a FOOL to move the team if there is a new arena coming. Just do some economics. say a fixed cost of 350M+20Mx verses at most 128M+7Mx? geez its an easy friggen choice.

 

[Maken*]

However the timing of events really works against Balsillie if he does intend to move the Pens - the sale will not likely come before Bettman and the BOG until after the slots licence is awarded. By the time the BOG will vote, either Balsille will be committed to IOC (if they win) or will have a 30 year Plan B lease on his desk awaiting his signature (if they don't). It is very unlikly that the BOG would approve the sale without a binding commitment to either of those plans.

I thought the BOG were meeting at some point this fall?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I thought the BOG were meeting at some point this fall?

It's likely not until after the November election when the plan for an arena may be decided one way or another. The BOG will gladly wait on a vote if it means knowing exactly what's going on.