"Pittsburgh Penguins" sale/arena/slots/etc. thread

Creator

Registered User
Aug 24, 2006
72
0
Territory Rights/Damages????
If Toronto is at capacity or sold out for every game, what damages will they say exists. Possible future figures don't hold up in court.....the same would apply for marketing dollars or sponsorship......:teach: If they were strugling they might have a argument. Guys in the booth tell the blind eye to get ready!!!

Buffalo was the team that voted too block the move/sale last time the NHL tried too move to Hamilton, and Toronto did not. Ask yourself why?
 

Northern Dancer

The future ain't what it used to be.
Mar 2, 2002
15,199
13
5 K from the ACC
Okay, can anyone answer this one?

Back in 1982 the Colorado Rockies were scouting possible locations to move to, and liked the Meadowlands... BUT the Rangers were insisting that New Jersey was part of their territory. So what changed? Did the Rockies franchise pay the Rangers to be allowed to move to the Meadowlands (which is 10 km from downtown Manhattan)?

This is important... if there is precedent that an existing franchise can't even protect it's territory that close, then Hamilton might not have much of a problem moving into Leafs/Sabres territory.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa... States, Territories and Possessions/Colorado

Yes there is lot's of precedents. Rockies had to pay Rangers and Islanders and possible Philly for moving to New Jersey. Anahiem paid L.A. Kings 25 million for moving into thier turf. The original Hamilton group (back when Hamilton was favoured for NHL expansion over the Senators) had a deal to pay BOTH Toronto and Buffalo if they succeeded. (believe it was 25 million each).
He will NOT take legal action against the NHL for territorial rights. Why would he want to pay 175 million for a franchise and he HIMSELF is NOT protected for territorial rights. That is insane !!!! Heck he could move the team to Hamilton or Waterloo and the NHL to get revenge could put an expansion team right in his market. There are tons of legal precedent for franchise territorial protection in business away from hockey. (Tim Hortons. Cdn Tire, etc.). Once he owns Pittsburgh he is in the club and will want to be protected himself.
 

discostu

Registered User
Nov 12, 2002
22,512
2,895
Nomadville
Visit site
I would assume that the arena would be almost entirely privately funded. The city is already in hot water for RIM park (which is a maginificent sports complex containing Gyms, Arenas, Soccer field, Baseball diamonds, etc.). And while he would obviously bring RIM with him, getting some of the insurance companies (Sun Life, for example), and Toyota on board would be crucial. The trick is that IF he can't get an arena for free in Pittsburgh and he is shelling out the cash anyways, then so be it.

I think the luck is having a billionaire running a company in Waterloo buying the team. The arena would be a HUGE issue, and is one that would almost have to be done out of pocket. Ottawa's arena was basically a mirracle that couldn't happen again. And your right, once Melnyk got the arena and team for half the price of the arena, Ottawa's finances changed from flaky to extremely strong.

If Pittsburgh doesn't get the arena, there are other markets that will be willing to offer arena subsidization. The U.S. has a greater culture of subsidizing sports franchises. The issue of getting an arena for free can really tip the scales in favour of a town that may not possess as much revenue potential.

What can tip the favour towards a southern Ontario location, is if by building a privately funded arena, there is usually much more control, and, if the owner purchases the surrounding area, they can make a lot of money on the development. I really hate to see that type of business model, as, it usually creates an unstable mess. It makes the hockey operations secondary, and can lead to bad team management. One has to look at what Charles Wang to find evidence of that.

I also don't know if the RIM owner wants to get into major land development deals. It's not his area of business, and, he may not want to be getting involved in that. Perhaps he takes on a minority partner for the arena for this purpose. I also know that the municipal government is currently trying to bring a 5-star hotel to the area, so the idea of a development park with an arena fits into those plans.

If the owner wants this to happen, in the event that Pittsburgh doesn't get the arena, there is enough potential out of this idea, that if the owner is very keen on it, to the point where he'd forego a partially funded arena in another city, like Kansas City, there are enough factors that he could probably push this through, and make it work.


Regarding someone else's comment about Mississauga not being a business centre, I highly disagree. I've dealt with a number of business in the Mississauga area. There are plenty in the surrounding offices, and, many of these are smaller offices of major international companies. Their presence in Toronto is as a sales office for Canada, which is why they are near the airport. These are the type of organizations that use hockey tickets in their business operations. Many are likely Leafs ticket holders right now, but, a KW team gives them a lower priced option, or, just a more readily available option, with the Leafs having such high demand for their tickets.

The distance remains an issue, as, that 401 corridor to Cambridge is a heavy traffic route, but, it isn't unmanageable. I've been on that route during high traffic times, and, I think the Orleans to Kanata comparison is apt.
 

Egil

Registered User
Mar 6, 2002
8,838
1
Visit site
If Pittsburgh doesn't get the arena, there are other markets that will be willing to offer arena subsidization. The U.S. has a greater culture of subsidizing sports franchises. The issue of getting an arena for free can really tip the scales in favour of a town that may not possess as much revenue potential.

Normally, I would agree. BUT, the other Rim guy (Mike Lazaridis) has donated $100 mil for the Perimiter insititute and $50 mil to the University of Waterloo. So I can completely see these guys building an arena out of pocket over using a pre-built arena in some other market. Consider it a $200 mil gift to the region followed by a profitable team (potentially quite profitable). It also would be a major tool in terms of attracting people to both the Perimiter Insititute and to RIM itself (which is always a consideration when trying to atract top end brains). They clearly have longer term plans for the region, bringing an NHL team in would truly make them the toast of the town (as if they arn't already).
 

Montrealer

What, me worry?
Dec 12, 2002
3,964
236
Chambly QC
Yes there is lot's of precedents. Rockies had to pay Rangers and Islanders and possible Philly for moving to New Jersey. Anahiem paid L.A. Kings 25 million for moving into thier turf. The original Hamilton group (back when Hamilton was favoured for NHL expansion over the Senators) had a deal to pay BOTH Toronto and Buffalo if they succeeded. (believe it was 25 million each).
He will NOT take legal action against the NHL for territorial rights. Why would he want to pay 175 million for a franchise and he HIMSELF is NOT protected for territorial rights. That is insane !!!! Heck he could move the team to Hamilton or Waterloo and the NHL to get revenge could put an expansion team right in his market. There are tons of legal precedent for franchise territorial protection in business away from hockey. (Tim Hortons. Cdn Tire, etc.). Once he owns Pittsburgh he is in the club and will want to be protected himself.

I'm not disagreeing there would be payments, I'm just interested in knowing the terms of previous deals (thanks for the Anaheim-LA info) because it looks like the Rangers tried to block the Rockies moving to NJ but weren't able to. They probably had to accept a payment instead.

If that's the case, then Toronto and Buffalo can't completely block a move either, and there's a payment precedent (so they can't charge $1 billion either).
 

Northern Dancer

The future ain't what it used to be.
Mar 2, 2002
15,199
13
5 K from the ACC
I'm not disagreeing there would be payments, I'm just interested in knowing the terms of previous deals (thanks for the Anaheim-LA info) because it looks like the Rangers tried to block the Rockies moving to NJ but weren't able to. They probably had to accept a payment instead.

If that's the case, then Toronto and Buffalo can't completely block a move either, and there's a payment precedent (so they can't charge $1 billion either).


I think the Devils paid Rangers and Islanders 15 million each and possibly the Flyers as well. As I mentioned Toronto and Buffalo were to get 25 million back in 1992 when Hamilton was going for an expansion team. The league would set the amount, not the Leafs or Sabres (altho they would have some imput). i would somewhere between 35 and 50 million each would do it.
 

discostu

Registered User
Nov 12, 2002
22,512
2,895
Nomadville
Visit site
I think the Devils paid Rangers and Islanders 15 million each and possibly the Flyers as well. As I mentioned Toronto and Buffalo were to get 25 million back in 1992 when Hamilton was going for an expansion team. The league would set the amount, not the Leafs or Sabres (altho they would have some imput). i would somewhere between 35 and 50 million each would do it.

I think if it's in Kitchener-Waterloo, it's far enough away from the Buffalo, that it can escape without payment. It would be about 2 hours away, which is the same distance between Montreal and Ottawa, which did present any issues at the time. Being that far away, as well as being across the border lessens any impact. Buffalo games aren't broadcast to Southern Ontario anyways.
 
Feb 24, 2004
5,490
611
I don't like this sale. I know RIM quite well (which electrical engineering student doesn't?) and I don't believe RIM will have a very stable future.

Its not about the engineering point anymore....the product itself has proven to be reliable and popular. Its now a business issue, such as they how market, diversify, and grow...and how feesable it all is.
 

17*

Guest
Copps Coliseum lies outside of the 65 mile radius of the HSBC Center.

At least, when I measured it on a map it does.

Therefore, no compensation will have to be paid to the Sabres.

Do we have the primary data shoing how many Sabres tickets are sold to Canadians?

My guess is that it might be about 20% max, if that, with the exception of Leaf games.

Also, I recall a website that had a list of all NHL teams and their profitability.

Apparently, Pittsburgh was at the bottom.

Does anyone have the link to that site?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

17*

Guest
That is a very interesting read.

2 teams playing out of the ACC would be bizarre.
 

Artyukhin*

Guest

i think this should wake everyone in denial up a bit .







City Councilwoman Tonya Payne, whose district includes Mellon Arena, told The Pittsburgh Post Gazette the Penguins are a key part of the Hill District's revitalization, and that the Isle of Capri proposal is the only way to ensure that they stay, especially given the sale to an out-of-town buyer.

"I think Plan B is absolutely ridiculous," she said in the Post Gazette report. "Why should [taxpayers] pay for an arena when somebody else will do it for free? ... I don't believe [Plan B] will be strong enough" to keep the team here.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,596
14,485
Pittsburgh

It is a blogger, and a rather dumb one from reading the 'article.' Dismissing plan B when the other two slot's applicants have agreed in writing to the commitment as has the state? Dumb. Hell, I would even shoot down his 25% chance of staying based on IOC being one of . . .four? . . .applicants . . . as stupid on its face but it is even dumber. There are only three applicants. Just a stupid poorly written blog.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,596
14,485
Pittsburgh
i think this should wake everyone in denial up a bit .







City Councilwoman Tonya Payne, whose district includes Mellon Arena, told The Pittsburgh Post Gazette the Penguins are a key part of the Hill District's revitalization, and that the Isle of Capri proposal is the only way to ensure that they stay, especially given the sale to an out-of-town buyer.

"I think Plan B is absolutely ridiculous," she said in the Post Gazette report. "Why should [taxpayers] pay for an arena when somebody else will do it for free? ... I don't believe [Plan B] will be strong enough" to keep the team here.

:shakehead

You have a real anti-Pen agenda don't you? I hope that your team leaves. You deserve it.


The council woman supports IOC, her statement means zip more. If Harrahs gets the slots license the development will not take place in her district, but across the river. Pure politics. God you are the worst of the vultures out there. Pens' fans across the board must hate you.
 

td_ice

Peter shows the way
Aug 13, 2005
33,003
3,569
USA
i think this should wake everyone in denial up a bit .







City Councilwoman Tonya Payne, whose district includes Mellon Arena, told The Pittsburgh Post Gazette the Penguins are a key part of the Hill District's revitalization, and that the Isle of Capri proposal is the only way to ensure that they stay, especially given the sale to an out-of-town buyer.

"I think Plan B is absolutely ridiculous," she said in the Post Gazette report. "Why should [taxpayers] pay for an arena when somebody else will do it for free? ... I don't believe [Plan B] will be strong enough" to keep the team here.

Boy you know nothing if you think a City Concil person has ANY clout whatsoever in this affair. They basically have no power at all in this.

So if you are basing anything off this quote, or hope it is true, then sorry, wrong tree.
 

SteelCitySaviour

Registered User
Nov 12, 2005
948
28
Pittsburgh PA
The whole purpose of that quote was to prove the fact that many Pittsburghers in low-level local politics are clueless to the details of plan B. If you read the whole article, you'd see that. It was actually a very positive write up about the whole plan B situation, and how favorable a deal it would be for the Pens.

The fact of the matter is that there virtually wouldnt be any taxpayer dollars in Plan B, as this uninformed woman believes- 8.5 mill up front and 4 a year from the pens, the vast vast VAST majority of the rest from the casino that wins (cough, harrah's, cough cough).

Anyways, nice attempt to stir up **** for Penguins fans. Not that anyone takes you seriously anyways.
 

Timmy

Registered User
Feb 2, 2005
10,691
26
:shakehead

You have a real anti-Pen agenda don't you? I hope that your team leaves. You deserve it.


The council woman supports IOC, her statement means zip more. If Harrahs gets the slots license the development will not take place in her district, but across the river. Pure politics. God you are the worst of the vultures out there. Pens' fans across the board must hate you.

Jaded-Fan, I think that it's time for you to understand the the corporate might of American corporations are no match for the pure will and strength of the collective Canadian hockey fanbase.

If enough people trash Pittsburgh, and said people are from a country that actually knows hockey, then you're toast, no matter what you do or say.

Just admit it.

The posters have spoken, and you my friend are simply SOL.












Hold on, I've got a city planner's receptionist from Hamilton on the phone who's going to back up my argument..
 

Northern Dancer

The future ain't what it used to be.
Mar 2, 2002
15,199
13
5 K from the ACC
Copps Coliseum lies outside of the 65 mile radius of the HSBC Center.

At least, when I measured it on a map it does.

Therefore, no compensation will have to be paid to the Sabres.

Do we have the primary data shoing how many Sabres tickets are sold to Canadians?

My guess is that it might be about 20% max, if that, with the exception of Leaf games.

Also, I recall a website that had a list of all NHL teams and their profitability.

Apparently, Pittsburgh was at the bottom.

Does anyone have the link to that site?

Think you are referring to a Forbes article and if memory serves me correct both Washington and St. Louis were light years ahead of Pittsburgh in the loss department. And your geography is excellant but I still belive Hamilton in within Buffalo's territory as when Hamilton was bidding for an NHL expansion team back in 1992, (Ottawa got the nod), they had already worked out the payments to BOTH Buffalo and Toronto (believe 25 million each).
 

17*

Guest
Think you are referring to a Forbes article and if memory serves me correct both Washington and St. Louis were light years ahead of Pittsburgh in the loss department. And your geography is excellant but I still belive Hamilton in within Buffalo's territory as when Hamilton was bidding for an NHL expansion team back in 1992, (Ottawa got the nod), they had already worked out the payments to BOTH Buffalo and Toronto (believe 25 million each).

I think it was the forbes article.

As much as Leaf fans may disagree, I think that each time anyone has tried to move a team to Hamilton, it's the Leafs, and the Leafs alone that have shut the door.

How else do you explain Ottawa getting the franchise.

Ron Joyce had the money, the arena, and 14 thousand season tickets sold in Hamilton.

The Ottawa bid had no arena, no season tickets sold, and since they figured that Hamilton was going to win anyway, they didn't even bother to come up with the expansion fee.

When Ottawa was awarded the franchise, they had to scramble to come up with the money.

Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Northern Dancer

The future ain't what it used to be.
Mar 2, 2002
15,199
13
5 K from the ACC
I think it was the forbes article.

As much as Leaf fans may disagree, I think that each time anyone has tried to move a team to Hamilton, it's the Leafs, and the Leafs alone that have shut the door.

How else do you explain Ottawa getting the franchise.

Ron Joyce had the money, the arena, and 14 thousand season tickets sold in Hamilton.

The Ottawa bid had no arena, no season tickets sold, and since they figured that Hamilton was going to win anyway, they didn't even bother to come up with the expansion fee.

When Ottawa was awarded the franchise, they had to scramble to come up with the money.

Sorry for getting off topic a bit.

Toronto did NOT block Hamilton, read my message, Ron Joyce had agreed to pay them to move into thier territory, it was a done deal. The Leafs did NOT pick Ottawa, the NHL did !!!!!!!

And any team in the NHL would ask for compensation (and get it). What is the point of having of franchise if you are not protected for territory infringement ????
 

catjump

Registered User
Oct 5, 2006
9
0
The Leafs are against anyone moving into their territory regardless of compensation. They even used to claim all of English Canada as their turf if it wasn't for the WHA.

According to Phil Esposito, Toronto and Buffalo were responsible for Hamilton not getting a team back in '92.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=b3a45cfc-d9c2-4ccc-b37d-5f3dcfdc7bde

While the NHL denied it, Phil Esposito, who was part of a rival bid for Tampa Bay, said that Toronto and Buffalo scuttled Hamilton's ambitions.

"Hamilton didn't get the team because of Toronto and Buffalo. Period," Mr. Esposito said."Toronto and Buffalo were very, very upset that Hamilton was even being considered because of territorial rights."
 

Creator

Registered User
Aug 24, 2006
72
0
Their are Hockey Fans and their are Maple Leaf Fans-Pick one and one only. If you choose too be a maple leaf fan, stand by your leafs. If you are a Hockey Fan you won't have to travel as far to see a game. In addition the above mentioned Maple leaf Fans won't have to travel as far to see an away game also...sound like a win win for both groups.

Its up to both groups to decide upon which colour of shirt to buy or wear on game day. In addition by Air or automobile "you will save Gas $$$$ seeing your favourite team".

Turn left or right is in the minds of everybody living in Burlington,Hamilton or St. Catherines??? PLease remember your Passport.....Ah F-#%K!!!! Sorry Kids.$$$:cry:
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,596
14,485
Pittsburgh
Politicians willing to sweeten deal further for Pens (why they will not go all the way and not just pay the $2.9 m. as well is beyond me - it is chump change to even leave an out for the Pens to go):


It has been broadly hinted there is negotiating room in some of the funding expected from the Penguins under Plan B. Currently, Plan B calls for the Penguins to put up $8.5 million in advance of construction and $4 million annually. There's said to be wiggle room in the $4 million. If that's so, the politicians should start wiggling.

The Penguins should be expected to put up part of the financing for the arena, just as the Pirates and Steelers did for PNC Park and Heinz Field. They are not in position to make the kind of contribution the Steelers did, but their payment should be somewhat in line with the Pirates'.

Waiting until the slot license is awarded to fine-tune Plan B will be too late. The Penguins have an ideal owner waiting to buy the team, and everything must be done to make certain he has no reason to take the team elsewhere.

The Penguins have done what is required of them. It's up to the politicians to make this work.



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06280/728158-194.stm
 

Northern Dancer

The future ain't what it used to be.
Mar 2, 2002
15,199
13
5 K from the ACC
The Leafs are against anyone moving into their territory regardless of compensation. They even used to claim all of English Canada as their turf if it wasn't for the WHA.

According to Phil Esposito, Toronto and Buffalo were responsible for Hamilton not getting a team back in '92.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=b3a45cfc-d9c2-4ccc-b37d-5f3dcfdc7bde

While the NHL denied it, Phil Esposito, who was part of a rival bid for Tampa Bay, said that Toronto and Buffalo scuttled Hamilton's ambitions.

"Hamilton didn't get the team because of Toronto and Buffalo. Period," Mr. Esposito said."Toronto and Buffalo were very, very upset that Hamilton was even being considered because of territorial rights."

I will try and track it down but I am connvinced that both Buffalo and Toronto had already signed off on the amounts for territorial intrusion (25 million each). Until them I admit I am wrong but I will take it with a grain of salt since it is Phil Esposito doing the chirping/
 

Creator

Registered User
Aug 24, 2006
72
0
The "wiggle room" is not an issue. It cannot be without a major delay or all parties being called back. The State called a deadline when they put forth a "RFP" request for Proposal, and this also had a deadline. So the wiggle room is no longer available. If they extend the decision date (good-bye), if they wiggle with one, they must wiggle with all, Plan A is the best deal for the Pens but Plan B is better for the State and the Pens cannot sign on too plan B until "B" is accepted...The city will want the funds promised in awarding the license-So Good bye Pens unless Plan A is awarded to Isle of Capri.

March of the Penguins is happening. If further comment to the 50,000 put down by Balsalie-there is also the 200,000 the City of Hamilton paid too HHC acquisitions to aquire Balsalie. So Hamilton is the Target (go ahead a google- HHC acquisitions + March of the Penguins) the writing is in the wall. The only thing that can stop it is plan A-Build or Move either way a team will move into another building in 2007/08.

Back rooms are a little busier in Toronto right now, very similar to the Toronto Raptors starting out of the Former Skydome until the ACC was build, the Pens may play out of the ACC until the Copps Collisium is renovated. Smart move by the people at MLSE (double Concession + rental revenues) for at least a season when the lease runs out in 2007 at the IGLOO.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 5
    Staked: $2,752.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $354.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $240.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $265.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $15.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad