I really really hope the Penguins stay in Pittsburgh. You guys deserve the team.
That being said, I see a lot of eerie parallels between the Pens and the Expos. Laugh if you will, but we had our own stadium plan, billionaire foreign owner from outside the sport, and constant committments to stay in Montreal forever.
Don't trust a billionaire; they're fickle as hell and are used to getting what they want.
Partially agreed. The team would never be as profitbale as the Leafs (just as the Mets arn't as good as the Yankees, the Devils and Islanders pale to the Rangers, etc.). Of any market in the NHL, Toronto is IMHO, the obvious choice for multiple teams. However, the advantage of K-W over putting a second team in Toronto itself IS lessening this impact. K-W companies, both tech, Insurance and Automotive, would NOT feel that pinch, and the team would be able to get "second tier" money from Toronto companies. Its a similar thing to Hamilton (the key being a team in the GTA that isn't branded Toronto), as it gives the team a local identity to mittigate the "second class" effect.
How do I not get it and what do hypothetical top ticket prices have to do with it at all? By December 31, 2006, before this hypothetical sale goes before the NHL for approval, either IOC has the slots license which = 30 year deal. Or one of the other two have the license which kicks in plan B. That day a lease is on Bassilli's desk committing the region and slots winner to build an arena in exchange for a mere $4 mil. a year from the Pens. The bull dozers have begun to take down the buildings on the already aquired properties and construction begins in 3 months pending the signing of the lease by Mr. Bassilli.
'Ok Mr. Bassilli, the ball is now in your court' says the NHL. Are you going to sign or not? Our approval of the sale depends on your answer.
Now tell me where I am wrong.
you are going to get funding, the chances of getting anything at the provincial level are slim to none. The Sens got screwed in the past, because the majority of the provincial votes fall in Toronto, they get upset when public money goes to NHL hockey teams (disregarding the sweetheart land lease the Leafs have gotten for the ACC of prime real estate). Any money is going to have to come municipally, and there isn't nearly enough for that.
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Everyone pretty much ignored this. If you are going to talk about likely or even unlikely moves to other markets at all, please address how the above makes any move even remotely possible. I just do not see with the above time table and fact scenerio how there is even a remote chance of a move. But someone shoot holes in the above if you can.
Come on, Toronto MP's had nothing to do with Ottawa not getting funding for there rink !!!!! And what is this sweet-heart deal you are talking about re the ACC and leased land ???
A picture of Mario in his house moments after the sale
Yeah, but rarer are the guys who want to drop nearly half a billion dollars on relocating a sports team, just for the hell of it.
Here is a time line link:http://www.theaircanadacentre.com/aboutACC.php?level=1§ionID=4&parentID=164
The land was purchased by the Raptors/Canada Post Lands[Crown Corporation] for 3.1M and there is no lease. The raptors were bought by MLSE after the ACC deal was made and the final payment was made earlier this year.
I think if you google the Toronto Raptors + Air Canada Centre + Proposal it will pop up-it was before the leafs got on board.
i'm no expert, but i presume that the nhl doesn't require franchises to fully or even partially fund new arenas. therefore, if the condition of a new arena in pittsburgh is that the penguins pay for part of it (plab B), then the nhl will not require the pens to remain.
just taking a guess.
They'll need to draw the majority of their support locally. Having a corporate box or even season tickets 100 kms away from the head office is a tough sell to many companies, making it difficult to get that corporate overflow. A KW business model would need to be drastically different than the one for the Leafs. I see a heavy reliance on group sales. It's impossible to get a bunch of people together to see a Leafs game in Toronto, due to ticket availability. You'll need to push the local business community to purchase tickets, who now have a great incentive to use the tickets as a sales tool, to woo clients from Toronto. Arrange for a client to come out in the afternoon to give him a sales pitch, and take him out to see a game in the evening.
Television rights become extremely difficult. I think there is no way that a KW team gets television rights over the Mississauga area. I think Milton is the most they can hope for. With their immediate area, plus Guelph, Hamilton, Burlington and London, they have a decent television market.
In the end, I think the market potential is comparable to Ottawa. Now, while Ottawa is on solid footing now, it's important to remember the history. In Canada, getting public assistance for building an arena is challenge. Ottawa's situation was a worse case scenario, as costs like the overpass, and the delays and costs in fighting the land use rulings resulted in costs ballooning higher than expected. It resulted in increase financing requirements, and, eventually, the weight of the debt was too much. Still, there's important lessons to be learned here. If there enough revenue to sustain the financing of a completely privately owned-arena? You are less likely to attract concerts and other events that help off-set the cost, as, the ACC is just an hour away.
If you are going to get funding, the chances of getting anything at the provincial level are slim to none. The Sens got screwed in the past, because the majority of the provincial votes fall in Toronto, they get upset when public money goes to NHL hockey teams (disregarding the sweetheart land lease the Leafs have gotten for the ACC of prime real estate). Any money is going to have to come municipally, and there isn't nearly enough for that.
They'll have to fund it on their own. As you pointed out, with some decent TV rights, they an upper half market in the NHL in terms of revenue. With a privately funded arena though, cash flows become much tighter, likely requiring at least $10-15M in cash flow a year to finance it. Ottawa only got stable when Melnyk came in and bought the team and arena at a cheap price, well below book value.
I think all of this points to the team really needing the Pittsburgh slot licence to come though. That gives the team the greatest chance of stability. If it doesn't get it, and, relocation is put on the table, a KW location would be a possibility, but, for it to happen, a lot of factors would have to be going in its favour, such as the price that it can get an arena built, the location of the land, the cost to settle any terrortorial rights, the level of public funding or assistance, the season ticket base, etc. Without a lot of luck, the other possible expansion markets would need to be considered.
Not a requirement. But if the contribution from the team is that little, I just do not see the BOG approving the sale w/o signing the lease. Do you?
and the vultures are starting to circle around the pens. the league won't let the pens move if there is an arena forthcoming, so we can all breathe easy if IOC wins the slots license. hopefully this december pens fans can get back to worrying just about the hockey side of things.
A) And the Pens lowered prices significantly in the year before the strike, as much as 65% on some seats so have gotten much higher prices in the past.
Never happen. Won't be supported in CA, they'll stay in the states. Got 3 teams out west and 3 closer together in East. Next team to be Americanized will be Vancouver....after that, prolly Calgary. Eventually only be 4 CA teams in NHL
Guys, Waterloo is not an NHL city. He isn't gonna move the team to Waterloo, so there's no need to continue to mention in here.
Balsillie made it public TODAY he has full intentions of keeping the team in Pittsburgh...
"I look forward to owning this team for a long time in Pittsburgh.â€
Yea, believing anything that comes out of anyone's mouth right now is just naive. It's pretty much arena or bust."The Vancouver Grizzlies are not moving."
- Heisley.
(The Grizzlies at the end of the season announces that they are moving to Memphis.)