"Pittsburgh Penguins" sale/arena/slots/etc. thread

Hawker14

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Oct 27, 2004
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Canada's coming back against our american cousins, baby !

First 1812, and now this !!!

lol
 

Montrealer

What, me worry?
Dec 12, 2002
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I really really hope the Penguins stay in Pittsburgh. You guys deserve the team.


That being said, I see a lot of eerie parallels between the Pens and the Expos. Laugh if you will, but we had our own stadium plan, billionaire foreign owner from outside the sport, and constant committments to stay in Montreal forever.

Don't trust a billionaire; they're fickle as hell and are used to getting what they want.
 

Hawker14

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Oct 27, 2004
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I really really hope the Penguins stay in Pittsburgh. You guys deserve the team.


That being said, I see a lot of eerie parallels between the Pens and the Expos. Laugh if you will, but we had our own stadium plan, billionaire foreign owner from outside the sport, and constant committments to stay in Montreal forever.

Don't trust a billionaire; they're fickle as hell and are used to getting what they want.

amen.
 

discostu

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Nov 12, 2002
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Partially agreed. The team would never be as profitbale as the Leafs (just as the Mets arn't as good as the Yankees, the Devils and Islanders pale to the Rangers, etc.). Of any market in the NHL, Toronto is IMHO, the obvious choice for multiple teams. However, the advantage of K-W over putting a second team in Toronto itself IS lessening this impact. K-W companies, both tech, Insurance and Automotive, would NOT feel that pinch, and the team would be able to get "second tier" money from Toronto companies. Its a similar thing to Hamilton (the key being a team in the GTA that isn't branded Toronto), as it gives the team a local identity to mittigate the "second class" effect.

They'll need to draw the majority of their support locally. Having a corporate box or even season tickets 100 kms away from the head office is a tough sell to many companies, making it difficult to get that corporate overflow. A KW business model would need to be drastically different than the one for the Leafs. I see a heavy reliance on group sales. It's impossible to get a bunch of people together to see a Leafs game in Toronto, due to ticket availability. You'll need to push the local business community to purchase tickets, who now have a great incentive to use the tickets as a sales tool, to woo clients from Toronto. Arrange for a client to come out in the afternoon to give him a sales pitch, and take him out to see a game in the evening.

Television rights become extremely difficult. I think there is no way that a KW team gets television rights over the Mississauga area. I think Milton is the most they can hope for. With their immediate area, plus Guelph, Hamilton, Burlington and London, they have a decent television market.

In the end, I think the market potential is comparable to Ottawa. Now, while Ottawa is on solid footing now, it's important to remember the history. In Canada, getting public assistance for building an arena is challenge. Ottawa's situation was a worse case scenario, as costs like the overpass, and the delays and costs in fighting the land use rulings resulted in costs ballooning higher than expected. It resulted in increase financing requirements, and, eventually, the weight of the debt was too much. Still, there's important lessons to be learned here. If there enough revenue to sustain the financing of a completely privately owned-arena? You are less likely to attract concerts and other events that help off-set the cost, as, the ACC is just an hour away.

If you are going to get funding, the chances of getting anything at the provincial level are slim to none. The Sens got screwed in the past, because the majority of the provincial votes fall in Toronto. Any money is going to have to come municipally, and there isn't nearly enough for that.

They'll have to fund it on their own. As you pointed out, with some decent TV rights, they an upper half market in the NHL in terms of revenue. With a privately funded arena though, cash flows become much tighter, likely requiring at least $10-15M in cash flow a year to finance it. Ottawa only got stable when Melnyk came in and bought the team and arena at a cheap price, well below book value.

I think all of this points to the team really needing the Pittsburgh slot licence to come though. That gives the team the greatest chance of stability. If it doesn't get it, and, relocation is put on the table, a KW location would be a possibility, but, for it to happen, a lot of factors would have to be going in its favour, such as the price that it can get an arena built, the location of the land, the cost to settle any terrortorial rights, the level of public funding or assistance, the season ticket base, etc. Without a lot of luck, the other possible expansion markets would need to be considered.
 
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Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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How do I not get it and what do hypothetical top ticket prices have to do with it at all? By December 31, 2006, before this hypothetical sale goes before the NHL for approval, either IOC has the slots license which = 30 year deal. Or one of the other two have the license which kicks in plan B. That day a lease is on Bassilli's desk committing the region and slots winner to build an arena in exchange for a mere $4 mil. a year from the Pens. The bull dozers have begun to take down the buildings on the already aquired properties and construction begins in 3 months pending the signing of the lease by Mr. Bassilli.

'Ok Mr. Bassilli, the ball is now in your court' says the NHL. Are you going to sign or not? Our approval of the sale depends on your answer.

Now tell me where I am wrong.

Everyone pretty much ignored this. If you are going to talk about likely or even unlikely moves to other markets at all, please address how the above makes any move even remotely possible. I just do not see with the above time table and fact scenerio how there is even a remote chance of a move. But someone shoot holes in the above if you can.
 

Northern Dancer

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Mar 2, 2002
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you are going to get funding, the chances of getting anything at the provincial level are slim to none. The Sens got screwed in the past, because the majority of the provincial votes fall in Toronto, they get upset when public money goes to NHL hockey teams (disregarding the sweetheart land lease the Leafs have gotten for the ACC of prime real estate). Any money is going to have to come municipally, and there isn't nearly enough for that.
.

Come on, Toronto MP's had nothing to do with Ottawa not getting funding for thier rink !!!!! And what is this sweet-heart deal you are talking about re the ACC and leased land ???
 
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Hawker14

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Everyone pretty much ignored this. If you are going to talk about likely or even unlikely moves to other markets at all, please address how the above makes any move even remotely possible. I just do not see with the above time table and fact scenerio how there is even a remote chance of a move. But someone shoot holes in the above if you can.

i'm no expert, but i presume that the nhl doesn't require franchises to fully or even partially fund new arenas. therefore, if the condition of a new arena in pittsburgh is that the penguins pay for part of it (plab B), then the nhl will not require the pens to remain.

just taking a guess.
 

discostu

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Come on, Toronto MP's had nothing to do with Ottawa not getting funding for there rink !!!!! And what is this sweet-heart deal you are talking about re the ACC and leased land ???

Actually, it was a mistake on my part, it was the backlash against the announced federal program, not the provincial program. A deal was announced that would have helped out Ottawa during one of its bankruptcy crises. After the deal was announced, there was a large public outcry, and much of that backlash came from the Toronto market.

There was very little support provincially for any support at that time, and, it is the general opinion up in Ottawa that when it comes to provincial matters, things stay Toronto-centric because that's where the votes are (much the same way feels about the rest of the country with regards to Ontario).

The Senators have had a bad relationship with the provincial government from the beginning. From the lack of support during the bidding process, to the requirement to build a $30M interchange, to the zoning issues with Ontario Municipal Board that jeopardized the arena construction, and ultimately resulted in a smaller arena being built. I don't think any city hoping to get an NHL team in Ontario outside of the GTA can bank on any public support from the province.



As for the land lease, I can't actually find anything about it, but, I've long recalled that the ACC is built on leased land, and, that lease is well below what the market value is for land right in the heart of downtown Toronto. If I find something, I'll post it, but, if you have any information that proves me wrong, and shows that the Leafs are either not on publicly owned land, or, are leasing at a market rate, please feel free to post it.
 

acr*

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A picture of Mario in his house moments after the sale


milliondollarmariolm0.jpg

One problem Mister Lemieux.

[image]http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pictures/m/mikerotundo/01.jpg[/image]

You didn't pay your taxes.
 

Creator

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As for the land lease, I can't actually find anything about it, but, I've long recalled that the ACC is built on leased land, and, that lease is well below what the market value is for land right in the heart of downtown Toronto. If I find something, I'll post it, but, if you have any information that proves me wrong, and shows that the Leafs are either not on publicly owned land, or, are leasing at a market rate, please feel free to post it.[/QUOTE]

Here is a time line link:http://www.theaircanadacentre.com/aboutACC.php?level=1&sectionID=4&parentID=164

The land was purchased by the Raptors/Canada Post Lands[Crown Corporation] for 3.1M and there is no lease. The raptors were bought by MLSE after the ACC deal was made and the final payment was made earlier this year.

I think if you google the Toronto Raptors + Air Canada Centre + Proposal it will pop up-it was before the leafs got on board.
 
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discostu

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Here is a time line link:http://www.theaircanadacentre.com/aboutACC.php?level=1&sectionID=4&parentID=164

The land was purchased by the Raptors/Canada Post Lands[Crown Corporation] for 3.1M and there is no lease. The raptors were bought by MLSE after the ACC deal was made and the final payment was made earlier this year.

I think if you google the Toronto Raptors + Air Canada Centre + Proposal it will pop up-it was before the leafs got on board.

My apologies. I must have confused my facts along the way.
 

Jaded-Fan

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i'm no expert, but i presume that the nhl doesn't require franchises to fully or even partially fund new arenas. therefore, if the condition of a new arena in pittsburgh is that the penguins pay for part of it (plab B), then the nhl will not require the pens to remain.

just taking a guess.

Not a requirement. But if the contribution from the team is that little, I just do not see the BOG approving the sale w/o signing the lease. Do you?
 

Egil

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They'll need to draw the majority of their support locally. Having a corporate box or even season tickets 100 kms away from the head office is a tough sell to many companies, making it difficult to get that corporate overflow. A KW business model would need to be drastically different than the one for the Leafs. I see a heavy reliance on group sales. It's impossible to get a bunch of people together to see a Leafs game in Toronto, due to ticket availability. You'll need to push the local business community to purchase tickets, who now have a great incentive to use the tickets as a sales tool, to woo clients from Toronto. Arrange for a client to come out in the afternoon to give him a sales pitch, and take him out to see a game in the evening.

This is why Mississauga is so key. Mississauga has alot of corporate HQ's. Mississauga is where the Airport is. And, dollars to donuts, while the distance is much longer (about 70 kms vs 25kms), you could get to Cambridge faster than Downtown Toronto from the airport, including Saturday nights, and especially on weekdays. And its why having Toronto TV rights is imperatif to having a team in K-W suceed (because just K-W doesn't cut it). Winnipeg would be a bottom of the barel market IF they had a team, K-W would be lower without the Toronto TV market.

And, just looking this up now, from where I used to live in Ottawa to Scotiabank place was 36 km, and that is from INSIDE the greenbelt at the East end. Going from Mississauga to an arena in Cambridge wouldn't be much further than that.

Television rights become extremely difficult. I think there is no way that a KW team gets television rights over the Mississauga area. I think Milton is the most they can hope for. With their immediate area, plus Guelph, Hamilton, Burlington and London, they have a decent television market.

K-W can't support a team without the Toronto TV rights. It would have to be an arangement allowing Leafs games to be shown in Southern Ontario and the K-W teams games shown in Toronto. The same applies to a Hamilton team. This is obviously a huge mess for the lawyers, but I have a hard time seeing a Hamilton team without Toronto TV rights let alone K-W.

In the end, I think the market potential is comparable to Ottawa. Now, while Ottawa is on solid footing now, it's important to remember the history. In Canada, getting public assistance for building an arena is challenge. Ottawa's situation was a worse case scenario, as costs like the overpass, and the delays and costs in fighting the land use rulings resulted in costs ballooning higher than expected. It resulted in increase financing requirements, and, eventually, the weight of the debt was too much. Still, there's important lessons to be learned here. If there enough revenue to sustain the financing of a completely privately owned-arena? You are less likely to attract concerts and other events that help off-set the cost, as, the ACC is just an hour away.

Without the Toronto TV market, K-W is a much worse market than Ottawa. The income level isn't as good, their is no arena and the population is about half (TV market would be bigger though). With the Toronto TV market, I think the team would be in a similar position as Ottawa. You can notice a large difference between the size of the two regions from Public Transit, and downtown areas. The ACC is also 1.5 hours away, and requires driving through some of the nastiest traffic. Copps colisium gets concerts, and I saw Nine Inch Nails in London. So, like in Ottawa, it wouldn't get all the big shows, but it would get some.

If you are going to get funding, the chances of getting anything at the provincial level are slim to none. The Sens got screwed in the past, because the majority of the provincial votes fall in Toronto, they get upset when public money goes to NHL hockey teams (disregarding the sweetheart land lease the Leafs have gotten for the ACC of prime real estate). Any money is going to have to come municipally, and there isn't nearly enough for that.

I would assume that the arena would be almost entirely privately funded. The city is already in hot water for RIM park (which is a maginificent sports complex containing Gyms, Arenas, Soccer field, Baseball diamonds, etc.). And while he would obviously bring RIM with him, getting some of the insurance companies (Sun Life, for example), and Toyota on board would be crucial. The trick is that IF he can't get an arena for free in Pittsburgh and he is shelling out the cash anyways, then so be it.

They'll have to fund it on their own. As you pointed out, with some decent TV rights, they an upper half market in the NHL in terms of revenue. With a privately funded arena though, cash flows become much tighter, likely requiring at least $10-15M in cash flow a year to finance it. Ottawa only got stable when Melnyk came in and bought the team and arena at a cheap price, well below book value.

I think all of this points to the team really needing the Pittsburgh slot licence to come though. That gives the team the greatest chance of stability. If it doesn't get it, and, relocation is put on the table, a KW location would be a possibility, but, for it to happen, a lot of factors would have to be going in its favour, such as the price that it can get an arena built, the location of the land, the cost to settle any terrortorial rights, the level of public funding or assistance, the season ticket base, etc. Without a lot of luck, the other possible expansion markets would need to be considered.

I think the luck is having a billionaire running a company in Waterloo buying the team. The arena would be a HUGE issue, and is one that would almost have to be done out of pocket. Ottawa's arena was basically a mirracle that couldn't happen again. And your right, once Melnyk got the arena and team for half the price of the arena, Ottawa's finances changed from flaky to extremely strong.
 

Hawker14

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Not a requirement. But if the contribution from the team is that little, I just do not see the BOG approving the sale w/o signing the lease. Do you?

yes. i've read quite a bit regarding karmanos leaving hartford and using that information i'm of the opinion that the nhl board of governors doesn't have a lot of will to restrict teams from moving.

as i said earlier, i want the pens to stay in pittsburgh, but it's very easy to manipulate a situation when you own the team. the BOG approved karmanos leaving hartford for carolina so i don't think they'd prevent a move, especially to canada at this time.
 

Injektilo

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Guys, Waterloo is not an NHL city. He isn't gonna move the team to Waterloo, so there's no need to continue to mention in here.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Sep 26, 2003
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and the vultures are starting to circle around the pens. the league won't let the pens move if there is an arena forthcoming, so we can all breathe easy if IOC wins the slots license. hopefully this december pens fans can get back to worrying just about the hockey side of things.
 

Hawker14

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and the vultures are starting to circle around the pens. the league won't let the pens move if there is an arena forthcoming, so we can all breathe easy if IOC wins the slots license. hopefully this december pens fans can get back to worrying just about the hockey side of things.

exactly. with the IOC, the pens will remain in pittsburgh without any doubt.
 

Artyukhin*

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A) And the Pens lowered prices significantly in the year before the strike, as much as 65% on some seats so have gotten much higher prices in the past.


There is your problem . having to lower ticket prices 65% to get people to show yup to support a losing team . forget about the past it is irrelevant the Montreal Expos used to draw 45,000 fans a game in the past. they had land for a new stadium also . There now in Washington .

you get my point



futher highlighting my point if there is ever a NEXT TIME of Basille having to cut ticket prices 65% to get people to show up you can bet Ontario will be on his front burner destination number 1 . Dont say it wont happen again because it was just recently you had to cut prices to get butts in the seats .


So you got no room to become complaciant . New rinks dont guarentte success at the gate .


this isnt no slight against the fans of the Maple Leafs but do you see the teams over the last 15 years people have have paid top dollar to watch ? no cup since 67 and they change top dollar prices 300 bucks tickets most profitable franchise in the NHL .
no attendance problems ever no matter what team they have iced winner or losers you havent seen the leafs cut ticket prices 65% ever .



If your goona sit there and tell me you can charge more for tickets in Pittsburgh with Crosby vs Ontario i wont belive it for one minute. As i said there would be enuff ex leaf fan "bangwagon jumpers" willing to pay huge dollars to go watch Crosby/Maklin as there " own " . they might not start out paying $300.00 but over time my bet would be you could change more in Ontario because there enuff people who have already paid big dollars to support the leafs and many still are currently paying it .

die hard leafs fans they will stay with the leafs and pay big dollars to watch them .

the band wagon jumpers will adopt the new team and be happy paying cheaper prices and watching a better team .



where does the ticket price market top out in Pittsburgh?
 
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Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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Jan 31, 2005
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If you think Balsillie bought this team with Crosby attached to keep it in Pittsburgh you need your head read!

First there is no rink...even if the deal for the rink comes thru it will be 2-3 yrs before it is completed. Secondly IOC isn't getting the casino license..Harrah's is..you can write that in ink..thanks to Ed Rendell. Thirdly, SMG who has the lease for the Mellon Arena which expires this June is going to FLEECE the pens to sign a new lease on the piece of garbage known as Mellon Arena which is the ONLY place they can play until a rink is built.

Balsillie bought this to move it folks, he's not the CEO of RIM by a wing and a prayer, he's a shrewd calculating, highly successful executive and with the young talent they have they are a diamond in the rough.

I can't see them staying in Pittsburgh....no viability long term.
 

sticknrink

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Aug 17, 2006
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I feel really bad for Pens fans, I'd like to say they aren't going to move but it's pretty obvious that a canadian based owner (and RIM is hot **** right now) is going to bring the Pens to his hometown.

He's already paid for exclusivity rights to the only arena that is close to NHL calibre in Hamilton.

It's down to the Pitts. government now and it's do or die.
 

sticknrink

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Aug 17, 2006
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Never happen. Won't be supported in CA, they'll stay in the states. Got 3 teams out west and 3 closer together in East. Next team to be Americanized will be Vancouver....after that, prolly Calgary. Eventually only be 4 CA teams in NHL

Um.

And the two smallest cities between the six somehow escape unscathed?

There won't be any more relocation with Canadian teams, At the very least not with Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.
 

Bobby Orr

Guest
Guys, Waterloo is not an NHL city. He isn't gonna move the team to Waterloo, so there's no need to continue to mention in here.

No kidding. I lived there for a while in the mid 90s, population was 85K. I don't imagine the entire KW area has much more than 350-400K. The smallest market in the NHL today is probably 1-1.1m.

There's no way the owners would ever go for adding a team they know they'd be sending their money to for at least the next 30 years.
 

sticknrink

Registered User
Aug 17, 2006
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London
Balsillie made it public TODAY he has full intentions of keeping the team in Pittsburgh...

"I look forward to owning this team for a long time in Pittsburgh.â€

"The Vancouver Grizzlies are not moving."
- Heisley.

(The Grizzlies at the end of the season announces that they are moving to Memphis.)
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Sep 26, 2003
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"The Vancouver Grizzlies are not moving."
- Heisley.

(The Grizzlies at the end of the season announces that they are moving to Memphis.)
Yea, believing anything that comes out of anyone's mouth right now is just naive. It's pretty much arena or bust.
 

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