Pre-Game Talk: Ottawa @ Columbus Wed. Night on SportsNet 7:00 pm

[Sensfanatic]

It took the organization FOREVER to realize Greening was not an NHLer and they gave Phillips a 2 year contract when he should have retired so I suspect it will take them the better part of this season to realize Neil, Chiasson and Wiercoch should be replaced.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Neil makes sense from a preservation sense. We all know Prince has to play once in a while. Well, Neil also needs to sit once in a while imo. Not because he hasn't played well, but because its wise to give an occasional break to a player in his 30's that plays a very physical game.

This too though

 

[Larionov]

I actually think that Bobby Ryan has played pretty well so far. His skating seems better, he is playing physical, and he scored an absolute beauty of a shootout goal to help us get a point. I think he'll be fine.

I think it's time to get Wideman into the lineup, which means that one of our bottom three defencemen needs to sit. Boro has actually been the most effective of those three, so I might be tempted to sit Weircioch to send him a bit of a message.

Looks like Lazar is hurting and might sit. I am now starting to wonder if he might be best served by spending some time in Bingo to find his offensive game. Effective player in many ways, but his lack of finish around the net is frustrating. He also doesn't seem to have much of a shot relative to many of our other forwards. In Bingo he could play first line minutes, power play, etc. for an extended period.

Finally, the fact that the Hamburgler is now ready for action makes the decision to play O'Connor against the Habs all the more curious. If they knew he was close, they should have played Andy back to back and then gone with Hammond tonight, leaving Andy to play against Pittsburgh tomorrow. We aren't good enough to leave points on the table by mismanaging our goaltending rotation...

 

[Micklebot]

I'd like to give Wier another chance. His pair is the only one limiting shot attempts to under 60 per 60. He's made some blunders, that's for sure, but I think he and Ceci can work through it. If the forwards are going to start generating more offense, they need to recieve passes with speed through the neutral zone, and he can make that happen.

Boro has been what he is, and that's a bottom pair defensive d with next to no offensive upside. He hasn't been bad, but I'd like to give Cowen some support when it comes to puck movement, and think Wideman should be given a chance.

If they opt to pull out Wiercioch instead, I'm fine with that too, I just feel that we get more balance with him in the lineup.

Prince should get a start too, and while my first instinct is over Neil, Chiasson could work too. I'd just prefer to see more skill in the lineup myself. 3 scoring lines would be nice.

Id like to see this:

Hoff - Turris - Stone
MacA - Zib - Ryan
Prince - Pageau - Lazar
Michalek - Smith - Chiasson

Methot - Karlsson
Wier/Cowen - Ceci
Cowen/Boro - Widman

One of Boro or Wier comes out of the lineup though I'd prefer Cowen to continue to get eased into the season; 10-15 games on the bottom pair won't hurt him. Pulling Wier out forces Cowen into bigger mins, which I'd prefer to hold off on even though he's played great.

Yzerman would have traded Neil and signed Condra. It's not rocket appliances.


Getting good players on your team is not as difficult as some posters make it out to be.

meh. Condra was a nice player, but not really worth the fuss. Pageau and Lazar made him expendable. Neil serves a very different purpose (which he may very well no longer be good at, but that's a different issue).

You don't use a ladle to serve spaghetti, no matter how nice a ladle it is.

 

[BonkTastic]

Yzerman would have traded Neil and signed Condra

Sure thing there, Nostradamus.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Neil serves a very different purpose (which he may very well no longer be good at, but that's a different issue).

You don't use a ladle to serve spaghetti, no matter how nice a ladle it is.

...

not saying you're wrong, but what is this purpose?



The enforcer role is obsolete. Teams don't carry them anymore.

meh. Condra was a nice player, but not really worth the fuss. Pageau and Lazar made him expendable.

Personally, I don't believe good players make other good players expendable. This is especially true for low maintenance players like Condra who can and are willing to play as many or as little minutes that is required from them, and who are willing to play any role on the team. Some good players may be disgruntled at being pushed down the lineup, but it's not the case for Condra.

Hence, such a player only becomes expendable when you have 14 better forwards.

 

[Nairbo]

Zibby and Ryan need a fire lit under their useless *****

 

[WhiteLight*]

Sure thing there, Nostradamus.

His team is one of the best teams in the league with one of the deepest forward groups. His team has an abundance of good forward prospects. Yet he still found room on his team for Condra. You're telling me that a player like Neil would have stopped Yzerman? Neil?

Yzerman has been flushing out no skill/no IQ players (players like Neil) since he took control in TB. You call me Nostradamus, I call it observation.

 

[cbjgirl]

CBJ forward lines got placed in a blender...

According to Portzline's twitter:

Jenner - Johansen - Saad
Calvert - Dubinsky - Atkinson (this one has played together in prior seasons)
Hartnell - Karlsson - Foligno
Bourque - Campbell - Boll

https://twitter.com/aportzline

 

[Xspyrit]

Its laughable that some think a 4 th line player sitting will make a difference when the entire 2nd line needs to be reminded that the season has begun!

Exactly,
I seriously don't get it, just doesn't make any sense in my hears

Every year, new scapegoats will be identified, it's inevitable, just the name on the Jersey that changes. You can't expect 18 skaters to produce

It's not rocket appliance: Neil already had a contract, and Condra didn't.

Well... on this board we talk 80% of the time about depth players when there is that old adage saying "you win with your best players and you lose with your best players"

CBJ fans consider the trade a win-win.

It surely is... Both teams got 2 very good players that filled a big need...

It took the organization FOREVER to realize Greening was not an NHLer and they gave Phillips a 2 year contract when he should have retired so I suspect it will take them the better part of this season to realize Neil, Chiasson and Wiercoch should be replaced.

lol, that kind of post is funny

 

[starling]

Nope, still no Wideman/Prince.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Prince should get a start too, and while my first instinct is over Neil, Chiasson could work too. I'd just prefer to see more skill in the lineup myself. 3 scoring lines would be nice.

Id like to see this:

Hoff - Turris - Stone
MacA - Zib - Ryan
Prince - Pageau - Lazar
Michalek - Smith - Chiasson

Turris and Stone are the only two forwards with enough skill and vision to be playmakers and make high end plays with the puck. The rest of the lines are kind of pathetic without them.... they need some kind of puckmovers/playmakers

Which is why I don't think Stone and Turris should play together.

Options

A)
Hoffman - Zibanejad - Stone
MacArthur - Turris - Ryan
Prince - Pageau - Lazar
Michalek - Smith - Chiasson

B)
MacArthur - Turris - Michalek
Prince - Zibanejad - Ryan
Hoffman - Lazar - Stone
Smith - Pageau - Chiasson

C)
MacArthur - Turris - Zibanejad
Hoffman - Lazar - Stone
Prince - Pageau - Ryan
Michalek - Smith - Chiasson

D)
Hoffman - Zibanejad - Stone
MacArthur - Turris - Ryan
Prince - Pageau - Michalek
Smith - Lazar - Chiasson



????

 

[Rodzilla]

I am not in the sit Neil camp, yet. I respect what he has done for this team over the years and all, but when people are saying "oh like sitting a 4th liner will change anything". Do you people realize that when our 4th line is stuck in our own zone it gives the other team a lot of momentum ? You also do know momentum is a huge thing in hockey? Because often Neil and his line are stuck in our zone, like against Montreal, and the other teams skate circles around our big slow dmens, and then we get scored on. Neil also tried many weak plays against MTL that gave them the puck like one time he entered the zone and tried a no look drop pass lol, HEY, you're Chris Neil.


I also thought he was chasing the play a lot, some people say he finished checks, but he was finishing them cause he never touched the puck. Over the 3 games I'd say though he's the least of our worries. The biggest concern for this team is the D. Weircioch has been putrid, poor decision making, poor passes, soft along the boards against smaller players, just awful. Cowen and Boro have been fine, Ceci too, but Karlsson and Methot have been meh.


I get so annoyed when Karlsson stands in front of our own net and lets the other players chase the opposing teams like chickens, go battle a little bit, try something. It always results in the other team staying a whole shift in our zone. I'd get a little more mobility in this line-up, it's only 3 games in but still each game is important and I'm getting kinda tired watching our slow dmens. I'd try Wideman if they suck again tonight. We won't go on amazing runs every year so we need wins.


Oh and also, for all the heat they get, I thought Michalek and Chiasson have played very well. Especially Michalek, many people want him gone but if it wasn't for his salary the guy is an amazing pro, a great exemple for the young guys and he looks respected by the team

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

...

not saying you're wrong, but what is this purpose?



The enforcer role is obsolete. Teams don't carry them anymore.





Personally, I don't believe good players make other good players expendable. This is especially true for low maintenance players like Condra who can and are willing to play as many or as little minutes that is required from them, and who are willing to play any role on the team. Some good players may be disgruntled at being pushed down the lineup, but it's not the case for Condra.

Hence, such a player only becomes expendable when you have 14 better forwards.

Kind of describes Neil too.

I liked COndra, but he was just as expendable as Neil. Neil will play out his contract, and who knows what happens next. He's been solid so far this season. Hard forechecking bottom line forward.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Nope, still no Wideman/Prince.

That second line needs to get going. 4th liners are not the problem by any means.

The team has a lot riding on Wiercioch and Cowen this season as well, they're going to be given every chance to succeed and rightfully so.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

His team is one of the best teams in the league with one of the deepest forward groups. His team has an abundance of good forward prospects. Yet he still found room on his team for Condra. You're telling me that a player like Neil would have stopped Yzerman? Neil?

Yzerman has been flushing out no skill/no IQ players (players like Neil) since he took control in TB. You call me Nostradamus, I call it observation.

I guess the fact that Neil is signed for only one more year, while Condra signed for three escaped your observation....

That's why we kept Neil over Condra, because unlike some posters here, and unlike how you apparently perceive Yzerman, Murray has more than a modicum of foresight.

 

[Micklebot]

...

not saying you're wrong, but what is this purpose?



The enforcer role is obsolete. Teams don't carry them anymore.

Neil never was a true enforcer. He was a pest energy guy how could fight with the heavyweights.

His role is to go in hard on the forecheck and wear down the opposition, particularly the defense and throw them off their game. He has the ability to change momentum with a big hit, or even god forbid a fight. While he may never post great box scores or underlying numbers, if he's doing his job right, it makes it easier for other lines to do theirs.

I'm far from his biggest fan, but what he's supposed to do is valuable, whether you beleive it or not. Can he provide it at this stage in his career, Idk, he looks faster than in the past so there's hope, but I imagine he'll top out at adequate at best. That said, had we traded Neil, there are other players I'd have looked at before Condra.

Personally, I don't believe good players make other good players expendable. This is especially true for low maintenance players like Condra who can and are willing to play as many or as little minutes that is required from them, and who are willing to play any role on the team. Some good players may be disgruntled at being pushed down the lineup, but it's not the case for Condra.

Hence, such a player only becomes expendable when you have 14 better forwards.

Well, I disagree. Expendable means we can afford to lose his skill set in order to give someone else with a different skill set an opportunity. You need more than one ingredient to bake a cake (I'm on a food analogy roll here), 12 pounds of the best flour on earth won't cut it, you still need some eggs and sugar. It's the same thing with a hockey team; you need guys that do different things.

 

[WhiteLight*]

I guess the fact that Neil is signed for only one more year, while Condra signed for three escaped your observation....

That's why we kept Neil over Condra, because unlike some posters here, and unlike how you apparently perceive Yzerman, Murray has more than a modicum of foresight.

... your point is?

... that prospects won't get a shot if Condra is here?



Let's see, Condra was a top 9 forward. Condra is/was ahead of Smith, Chiasson and Prince at the very least. Arguably Michalek as well.

Condra is gone, and Prince is still in the press box not playing. Doesn't sound like they are too eager to play prospects to me.


Let's say Condra was the #9 forward. That leaves 5 spots open behind Condra... (14 forwards on a team). That is 5 opportunities for prospects such as Prince, Puempel, etc. (who else are you thinking of?) to push Condra down the depth chart while still be able to justify having Condra under contract.

Condra wasn't a 13th forward here. Even if a couple prospects surpassed him, he would have been pushed to the 4th line. At 1.25, that's a good price even for a 4th liner. Neil, Smith, Chiasson and arguably Mchalek should all have been out the door before him.

I don't see 7 forward prospects that all have their spots all locked down in the next 3 years.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Neil never was a true enforcer. He was a pest energy guy how could fight with the heavyweights.

His role is to go in hard on the forecheck and wear down the opposition, particularly the defense and throw them off their game. He has the ability to change momentum with a big hit, or even god forbid a fight. While he may never post great box scores or underlying numbers, if he's doing his job right, it makes it easier for other lines to do theirs.

I'm far from his biggest fan, but what he's supposed to do is valuable, whether you beleive it or not. Can he provide it at this stage in his career, Idk, he looks faster than in the past so there's hope, but I imagine he'll top out at adequate at best. That said, had we traded Neil, there are other players I'd have looked at before Condra.



Well, I disagree. Expendable means we can afford to lose his skill set in order to give someone else with a different skill set an opportunity. You need more than one ingredient to bake a cake (I'm on a food analogy roll here), 12 pounds of the best flour on earth won't cut it, you still need some eggs and sugar. It's the same thing with a hockey team; you need guys that do different things.

Guys that do different things... I agree to an extent. You need guys who can PK, guys who can run a PP, guys who can put the puck in the net, guys who can prevent pucks from going in your own net....

But, I think
1. Guys with more than one skill (Condra = PK, possession, shut down forward) >>> guys with one skill (Neil = hitting).
2. Neil's skill isn't that useful. The other team plays keep away from him when he's on the ice - does this really wear down the other team as you suggest? Seems like it wears down Ottawa's players more than anything, more running around.

 

[Viletho]

I get so annoyed when Karlsson stands in front of our own net and lets the other players chase the opposing teams like chickens, go battle a little bit, try something. It always results in the other team staying a whole shift in our zone. I'd get a little more mobility in this line-up, it's only 3 games in but still each game is important and I'm getting kinda tired watching our slow dmens. I'd try Wideman if they suck again tonight. We won't go on amazing runs every year so we need wins.

I agree. At first i was glad he took some weight in the summer. I didn't mind it, if Karlsson was slower but the extra weight allow him to win more battle along the board. But he doesn't even use the extra weight. Also, i hate it when there's a player in front of him and he doesn't skate to him. He pratically let him a free pass cuz he do not pressure the puck carrier.

I want Karlsson to battle along the board. He's so good with his stick that he would stole a lot of puck.

 

[Micklebot]

... your point is?

... that prospects won't get a shot if Condra is here?



Let's see, Condra was a top 9 forward. Condra is/was ahead of Smith, Chiasson and Prince at the very least. Arguably Michalek as well.

Condra is gone, and Prince is still in the press box not playing. Doesn't sound like they are too eager to play prospects to me.


Let's say Condra was the #9 forward. That leaves 5 spots open behind Condra... (14 forwards on a team). That is 5 opportunities for prospects such as Prince, Puempel, etc. (who else are you thinking of?) to push Condra down the depth chart while still be able to justify having Condra under contract.

Condra wasn't a 13th forward here. Even if a couple prospects surpassed him, he would have been pushed to the 4th line. At 1.25, that's a good price even for a 4th liner. Neil, Smith, Chiasson and arguably Mchalek should all have been out the door before him.

I don't see 7 forward prospects that all have their spots all locked down in the next 3 years.

Hoffman MacArthur and Michalek all play ahead of him at LW. Puempel pushes Lazar to RW, so Stone, Ryan and Lazar are ahead at RW. That leaves him as a 4th liner at best on this squad. As I already mentioned, Neil serves a different role. If we wanted to move him, it wouldn't be so that we can sign Condra, but to get an upgrade on the skill set Neil provides. That leaves Chiasson's spot on the LW (even though both he and Condra are RW). My guess is by season's end, Prince has that spot locked down.

If Condra wanted a 2 year contract, maybe we make it happen, but long term we don't have a spot for him, and there's a very real chance short term we don't either, and this is coming from a long time Condra supporter. I'd probably prefer him over Neil in the lineup most nights, but I totally understand the rational behind the decision to keep Neil.

 

[ATdaisuki]

agreeing a lot with whitelight in this thread. that's not a good sign

condra was one of our best bottom six players. he was not the one to let go.

forwards should be something along the lines of:

macarthur - turris - ryan
hoffman - zibanejad - stone
prince - pageau - michalek
smith - lazar - chiasson

maybe put prince over to lw and scratch chiasson for puempel. maybe play smith at center and lazar at wing.

hoffman and stone will produce no matter who their center is. best to try and get zibanejad going with those two.
ryan needs a better puck carrier on his line. turris is the man for the job.
prince needs to be in.

i really want to see what wideman can do, but i think wiercioch and ceci deserve more games.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Hoffman MacArthur and Michalek all play ahead of him at LW. Puempel pushes Lazar to RW, so Stone, Ryan and Lazar are ahead at RW. That leaves him as a 4th liner at best on this squad. As I already mentioned, Neil serves a different role. If we wanted to move him, it wouldn't be so that we can sign Condra, but to get an upgrade on the skill set Neil provides. That leaves Chiasson's spot on the LW (even though both he and Condra are RW). My guess is by season's end, Prince has that spot locked down.

If Condra wanted a 2 year contract, maybe we make it happen, but long term we don't have a spot for him, and there's a very real chance short term we don't either, and this is coming from a long time Condra supporter. I'd probably prefer him over Neil in the lineup most nights, but I totally understand the rational behind the decision to keep Neil.

The difference is I don't understand the rational lol...
I see a spot for him on line 4 for the next few years. Neil and Chiasson, or prospects, don't change that for me. Oh well

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Exactly,
I seriously don't get it, just doesn't make any sense in my hears

Every year, new scapegoats will be identified, it's inevitable, just the name on the Jersey that changes. You can't expect 18 skaters to produce



Well... on this board we talk 80% of the time about depth players when there is that old adage saying "you win with your best players and you lose with your best players"



It surely is... Both teams got 2 very good players that filled a big need...



lol, that kind of post is funny

And then when we criticize our "best" players we get the "yeah but they're stars in the NHL.. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!" treatment.

I wouldn't say the scapegoats change every year... nor would I even identify them as scapegoats.. people think Neil is bad.. they think he should be replaced. Simple... Theyre not using him as a scapegoat for anything. I don't think anyone thinks Neil is responsible for Losses.. but I believe Replacing him with a better play can make out team a little better.. in fact, I think replacing all our players with better players, will in fact, make our team better. neil is not a scapegoat for our losses. just an identified weak link in our team and then some believe can be improved on.

 

[Rodzilla]

I agree. At first i was glad he took some weight in the summer. I didn't mind it, if Karlsson was slower but the extra weight allow him to win more battle along the board. But he doesn't even use the extra weight. Also, i hate it when there's a player in front of him and he doesn't skate to him. He pratically let him a free pass cuz he do not pressure the puck carrier.

I want Karlsson to battle along the board. He's so good with his stick that he would stole a lot of puck.

Exactly what I was trying to say, thanks! Like you said, I also get mad when he doesn't skate to the player, it's so easy for him to make a good play or a pass, if Karlsson went in there with his stickwork (we know he's good) then we'd be able to go on the attack quickly instead of watching them skate circles.