Value of: Nazem Kadri

[LeafGrief]

Forgot 1) when I wrote it's technically correct and 2) when I wrote "constant". The devil is in the little details, isn't it?

Trying to sell Kadri's value as a 30 goals scorer is premature.

Weren't you in the McAvoy vs Rielly thread? Talk about premature

You're ignoring the lockout season where he scored 18 in 48 games. That pro-rates to 30.75 goals in a season. So calling it a 60% increase is disingenuous. Even if he had slowed down in the lockout year (which he probably would have, if we're being fair) he would have still beaten his threshold. If you want to look at the devil in the details, try adding just the tiniest bit of context or analysis to the numbers.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There are no words in this language to describe how incorrect this statement is.

Kadri suddenly became a lot better defensively just because of how babcock used him, and all his previous coaches were inept and forgot how to coach and used him incorrectly for many many many years in a row?

You're discrediting Kadri for the work he has done to improve himself and carve a role for himself in the NHL.

His defensive role is a product of a kid working hard to figure out what he has to do to succeed at this level. He found his niche, and he did it all on his own.

To suggest that he was always this good and the coach's magically managed to limit his effectiveness into half the player he is today.... is completely nuts.

What a lot of people don't realize is that Kadri didn't just appear out of nowhere this season. He has always been good and he has slowly been getting better every year. Last season he had 45 points, this season 61 and for this reason, people think that he made a huge leap forward when the reality is that last season he (and to some extent his linemates) had horrendous puck luck at the start of the season for a few months. Another factor is the huge influx of talent to the Leafs - instead of teams being able to key on Kadri, they had to pay attention to Matthews, Nylander and Marner. Add in the fact that Kadri was put on the #1 PP unit with lots of talent next to him when not long ago he was on the 2nd unit with the previously mentioned David Clarkson and it wasn't hard to predict that he would score more points this season.

Bottom line, he has been improving steadily for years now and now that the team is better, he puts up more points. And the story that he mas made a huge leap forward defensively is also a myth, he has improved a bit every year, there was just that one play against the great McDavid in OT that got everyone talking about him and changed the narrative. Some of us knew all along the kid was a player.

 

[Bluelines]

Dont you know that players suck once they reach 27 yrs old?

Honest question/s to the leafs faithful, does kadri score 30 without mathews and co on the roster? Would he even reach 20 in LA?

Would he score 20 in LA? Depends on how he is deployed. I'm a Leaf fan and not a fan of Kadri but the guy has skill and can be very effective on the score sheet.

Kadri's success on the score sheet this year was not because we added Matthews but because Kadri changed his game, he went from a perimeter shooter to a guy who attacked the dirty areas. Kadri has great hands when he is in tight to the crease but is relativity ineffective if he is shooting 30ish feet out.

He's an energy guy who can give your team a boost with timely hits or can suck the wind out of your sails with thoughtless penalties.

If his mind is in the game he can be very effective, if he coasts like he's been known to do he can be frustratingly invisible.

His warts are his mind is not always "in" the game, he's poor on faceoff's, weak shot from 30+ feet out, a defensive forward who does not play in all defensive situations.

His pluses are he is lethal in the slot, his history for nasty hits will make opposing players play tentative. Loves the spotlight, he will raise his game if challenged by an elite player. Is a Swiss knife type player that is growing his game every time he is on the ice, is open to coaching and growing as a player. is improving on the face off dot. He has potential to be a leader

 

[Kingspiracy]

Would he score 20 in LA? Depends on how he is deployed. I'm a Leaf fan and not a fan of Kadri but the guy has skill and can be very effective on the score sheet.

Kadri's success on the score sheet this year was not because we added Matthews but because Kadri changed his game, he went from a perimeter shooter to a guy who attacked the dirty areas. Kadri has great hands when he is in tight to the crease but is relativity ineffective if he is shooting 30ish feet out.

He's an energy guy who can give your team a boost with timely hits or can suck the wind out of your sails with thoughtless penalties.

If his mind is in the game he can be very effective, if he coasts like he's been known to do he can be frustratingly invisible.

His warts are his mind is not always "in" the game, he's poor on faceoff's, weak shot from 30+ feet out, a defensive forward who does not play in all defensive situations.

His pluses are he is lethal in the slot, his history for nasty hits will make opposing players play tentative. Loves the spotlight, he will raise his game if challenged by an elite player. Is a Swiss knife type player that is growing his game every time he is on the ice, is open to coaching and growing as a player. is improving on the face off dot. He has potential to be a leader

Love the write up, much appreciated.

He sounds like just the sort of guy we'd be looking for. Shame about the draws though, i wonder if he'l get better at them with age and a stoll instructional video.



Although tell him to skip the chapter on shooting

 

[TBC]

30 goals, 20 goals, whatever Points is the more commonly used number when assessing value and of course there's a whole lot more to KAdri than point totals. I predicted before the season started that Kadri would average 55-60 points over the next 5 years or so. People who are unable to look past his point totals up to that point laughed but so far so good. This season he did that while matching up against the top lines in the league, it was a very impressive season. He's a player who is coming into his own and those who think he overachieved and are still using point totals from years past to assess his value are out to lunch. Those who have been watching him for his entire career know his value, hell even 99% of those who have been hating on him all his career have come around and now acknowledge his value as a core piece.

A thread about his trade value is nothing more than a theoretical exercise. Of course you never know for sure when someone may knock your socks off with an offer but Kadri is not on the market, he has a relatively unique skill set (similar to Marchand which I'm guessing is the reason he was mentioned) which would be almost impossible to replace. Bottom line, anyone thinking he will be traded should prepare to be dissappointed.

I noticed, i was after a few opinions, because to me one season doesnt earn that label. Two or three seasons is what i feel that takes, playing successfully against the best.

Now I can kind of see this and kind of can't. If I was out looking to trade for a shut-down centre, I would rather someone who has done it consecutive years in a row. However if I have someone who just played that role and did it well I'm labeling them as that and not selling them short of it because what if they do it again? Then you aren't getting full value out of him.

 

[Varcus]

I'd really like to know what people think a #1 centre is now. I also want whatever the guy is on that put Malkin and Carter as comparables for a 2nd line centre. That's almost bigger then leaving Malkin out of the top 100. There is what 10 teams with a centre with more points then Kadri this season. Also since the lock out shortened season I'm willing to bet he is in the top 30 in points over that time. Considering the dumpster fire that was the leafs I'd say that is pretty good.

 

[Bluelines]

Love the write up, much appreciated.

He sounds like just the sort of guy we'd be looking for. Shame about the draws though, i wonder if he'l get better at them with age and a stoll instructional video.



Although tell him to skip the chapter on shooting

He is improving with his faceoffs, towards the end of the year he was noticeably better.

Like I said he is open to coaching and getting better in all facets of his game.

 

[NiL8r87]

What does Kadri have to do with Marchand?

If you are trying to equate them... I am pretty sure there would be a large consensus on Marchand over Kadri...

That's not what he was trying to say...

 

[Gary Nylund]

I noticed, i was after a few opinions, because to me one season doesnt earn that label. Two or three seasons is what i feel that takes, playing successfully against the best.

Kadri has been matching up against the best for two seasons now. The 2015-16 season people may not be impressed with because he "only" had 45 points but again, that season is a great example of how point totals don't always paint an accurate picture. After a horrendous shooting% slump for the first couple of months he scored at a 55 point pace the rest of the way. At that point JVR was injured and not playing so after Kadri, the Leafs had no scoring threats to speak of (except when Nylander was called up near the end of the season) so scoring at that pace while carrying bottom 6 wingers, matching up against top lines and having other teams key on him defensively was most impressive and made my prediction that he would average 55-60 over the coming years not as outlandish as some people thought.

It's pretty funny to read about how some are keying in on goals with comments like Kadri's only scored 30 once, how many times has he even scored 20 etc. Just ask those people go on record and predict how many points Kadri will average over the next few years, that should shut them up pretty quickly.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Would he score 20 in LA? Depends on how he is deployed. I'm a Leaf fan and not a fan of Kadri but the guy has skill and can be very effective on the score sheet.

Kadri's success on the score sheet this year was not because we added Matthews but because Kadri changed his game, he went from a perimeter shooter to a guy who attacked the dirty areas. Kadri has great hands when he is in tight to the crease but is relativity ineffective if he is shooting 30ish feet out.

He's an energy guy who can give your team a boost with timely hits or can suck the wind out of your sails with thoughtless penalties.

If his mind is in the game he can be very effective, if he coasts like he's been known to do he can be frustratingly invisible.

His warts are his mind is not always "in" the game, he's poor on faceoff's, weak shot from 30+ feet out, a defensive forward who does not play in all defensive situations.

His pluses are he is lethal in the slot, his history for nasty hits will make opposing players play tentative. Loves the spotlight, he will raise his game if challenged by an elite player. Is a Swiss knife type player that is growing his game every time he is on the ice, is open to coaching and growing as a player. is improving on the face off dot. He has potential to be a leader

Curious about this... Is this because he plays the PP instead of the PK? Why do people think if you play the PK you are a good defensive player?

Playing the PK is just about keeping your feet moving, not giving guys time to set up and force the shots as far to the outside as possible. One player clears the crease, the rest take turns chasing the puck. Hunwick is not a defensive stud yet he was our most valuable D on the PK this year. After that was Polak... The Leafs were a top 10 PK team....

 

[TBC]

Curious about this... Is this because he plays the PP instead of the PK? Why do people think if you play the PK you are a good defensive player?

Playing the PK is just about keeping your feet moving, not giving guys time to set up and force the shots as far to the outside as possible. One player clears the crease, the rest take turns chasing the puck. Hunwick is not a defensive stud yet he was our most valuable D on the PK this year. After that was Polak... The Leafs were a top 10 PK team....

Yeah I don't get the whole annotation that if you play PK you're good defensively and if you don't you're bad. PK is something you can easily get coached which is why normally you have bottom 6 guys filling out the PK.

 

[Bluelines]

Curious about this... Is this because he plays the PP instead of the PK? Why do people think if you play the PK you are a good defensive player?

Playing the PK is just about keeping your feet moving, not giving guys time to set up and force the shots as far to the outside as possible. One player clears the crease, the rest take turns chasing the puck. Hunwick is not a defensive stud yet he was our most valuable D on the PK this year. After that was Polak... The Leafs were a top 10 PK team....

IMO the role of a defensive person is to prevent goals against, there is no situation where you are more needed to prevent goals against than the PK. IMO it seems like if you are great at preventing goals, you should be in the situation where you are most needed.

I think, and this is just me speculating, Kadri is at greater risk for injury (blocking shots) on the PK and they don't want to lose a guy who can score because he is blocking shots on the PK. I think another reason why Kadri is not used on the PK is he has been known, due to his aggressiveness, to put himself out of good defensive positioning to make a play. If the box breaks down on the PK , that is trouble. The PK is so structured, I'm not sure a guy like Kadri would be a good fit.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Curious about this... Is this because he plays the PP instead of the PK? Why do people think if you play the PK you are a good defensive player?

Playing the PK is just about keeping your feet moving, not giving guys time to set up and force the shots as far to the outside as possible. One player clears the crease, the rest take turns chasing the puck. Hunwick is not a defensive stud yet he was our most valuable D on the PK this year. After that was Polak... The Leafs were a top 10 PK team....

Yeah I don't get the whole annotation that if you play PK you're good defensively and if you don't you're bad. PK is something you can easily get coached which is why normally you have bottom 6 guys filling out the PK.

Yup. Playing D 5on5 and playing on the PK are two completely different skill sets.

 

[Liferleafer]

Yup. Playing D 5on5 and playing on the PK are two completely different skill sets.

Agreed, it's why in many cases, 4th liners and bottom pair D make the best PKers, such as Matt Martin/Boyle and Polak/Hunwick.

 

[Gavy]

Hes not a low end 1c god he would suck in that spot. Hes a decent 2c behind a proper 1c of matthews He would be a decent 2c in la behind Kopitar but he would drop in his point total. He has inflated number behind all the offensive players on your team.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

If kadri gets some pp and half decent linemates he's scoring 50 plus on every team in the nhl. He scored 45 playing with parenteau and komarov on the top line 2 years ago...

 

[BruinLVGA]

Is Marchand a ppg superstar? I think the point is Kadri is doing everything we need and want out of him. Replacing him can't be done and so he isn't on the block regardless of how you interpret his value. He is a core player.

I have my opinion on Marchand. I also have an opinion on Spanish cuisine. I have one too about turbocharged car engines vs non turbo or supercharger engines. And so on, for many things. All of them share one thing: they got nothing to do with Kadri. Hence there's no reason for me to comment on my opinion about Marchand, is there now?

And there were some bringing up the ever relevant David Clarkson.

In the category "got to 30 goals one season, when he never even got remotely close before", it's plenty relevant. It's also plenty relevant to the "get to 30 goals once, when before he never even sniffed them from far away =/= a constant 30 goals scorer from now on".

You're getting confused by the english language with these terribly irrelevant comparisons.

1. When people say "he's a 30 goal scorer" in evaluating the player, they're typically referring to past present and future, it means he has scored 30 and can continue to score 30. Otherwise, why call him a 30 goal scorer?

Is Kulemin a 30 goal scorer? Is grabovski a career 29 goal scorer? 2. What about Clarkson? Is jason blake a 40 goal scorer?

3. Sometimes players have anomalously high totals in a season, and Kadri has only broken 20 goals once (with a bare minimum of 20).

Even calling Kadri a 20 goal scorer is a stretch, he's done it 2 times in his career.

1. At least one guy got it. There's hope then.
2. I am curious to hear what they're going to say about this.
3. No facts, please. Those are glorification-averse.

Weren't you in the McAvoy vs Rielly thread? Talk about premature

1. You're ignoring the lockout season where he scored 18 in 48 games. That pro-rates to 30.75 goals in a season. 2. So calling it a 60% increase is disingenuous. Even if he had slowed down in the lockout year (which he probably would have, if we're being fair) he would have still beaten his threshold. If you want to look at the devil in the details, try adding just the tiniest bit of context or analysis to the numbers.

1. I heard this one before. Do you know from who? Edmonton fans. For ever... And ever... And ever... They said that because Yakupov had scored at a 30 goals pace in that season, he was a 30 goals scorer... Maybe it's just that in an anomalous shortened season, odd things can happen.

2. Nope, it's very simple math. 20 to 32 goals is a 12 goals increase. I was already nice to consider it "only" a 60% increase, because Kadri's average was lower. 20 goals was his previous best, not the average.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I have my opinion on Marchand. I also have an opinion on Spanish cuisine. I have one too about turbocharged car engines vs non turbo or supercharger engines. And so on, for many things. All of them share one thing: they got nothing to do with Kadri. Hence there's no reason for me to comment on my opinion about Marchand, is there now?

In the category "got to 30 goals one season, when he never even got remotely close before", it's plenty relevant. It's also plenty relevant to the "get to 30 goals once, when before he never even sniffed them from far away =/= a constant 30 goals scorer from now on".

1. At least one guy got it. There's hope then.
2. I am curious to hear what they're going to say about this.
3. No facts, please. Those are glorification-averse.

1. I heard this one before. Do you know from who? Edmonton fans. For ever... And ever... And ever... They said that because Yakupov had scored at a 30 goals pace in that season, he was a 30 goals scorer... Maybe it's just that in an anomalous shortened season, odd things can happen.

2. Nope, it's very simple math. 20 to 32 goals is a 12 goals increase. I was already nice to consider it "only" a 60% increase, because Kadri's average was lower. 20 goals was his previous best, not the average.

Did anyone say he would be a "constant" 30 goal man from now on? I didn't think so. Enjoy pounding on your straw man if that's what turns you on.

Kadri is a very good player, I've watched his steady improvement over the years so I know what I'm talking about and I know there's a lot more to him that his goal totals. If you watched him play on a regular basis you probably would too.

 

[Ctrain2k]

This time last year he was worth less than RNH and leafs fans wanted to get rid of him like crazy now one good season and it's #1D or bust.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Did anyone say he would be a "constant" 30 goal man from now on? I didn't think so. Enjoy pounding on your straw man if that's what turns you on.

Kadri is a very good player, I've watched his steady improvement over the years so I know what I'm talking about and I know there's a lot more to him that his goal totals. If you watched him play on a regular basis you probably would too.

If someone describes a player as a "30 goals scorer", even more so when speaking about said player's value in a trade, to me - and I assume to many others - I expect a player who is a constant 30 goals scorer. Kadri is a 17-20 goals scorer who got a lucky year. That's all.

Kadri is a gritty, two-way mid/low #2C, good for 40-50 points on average, who got a career year in 16-17. Now do go on and reveal any astonishing truth that I am missing, please?

 

[BruinLVGA]

This time last year he was worth less than RNH and leafs fans wanted to get rid of him like crazy now one good season and it's #1D or bust.

Kadri for Josi - e5 (maybe Preds add...)

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

If someone describes a player as a "30 goals scorer", even more so when speaking about said player's value in a trade, to me - and I assume to many others - I expect a player who is a constant 30 goals scorer. Kadri is a 17-20 goals scorer who got a lucky year. That's all.

Kadri is a gritty, two-way mid/low #2C, good for 40-50 points on average, who got a career year in 16-17. Now do go on and reveal any astonishing truth that I am missing, please?

i would agree with 40-50 points IF he had the linemates he has had in his career, but starting this year he finally got some good linemates. hard to put up points
when you play with players like clarkson, raymond, parenteau ect... among much worse players. As opposed to brown, nylander, komarov(to a degree)

 

[firstemperor]

i would agree with 40-50 points IF he had the linemates he has had in his career, but starting this year he finally got some good linemates.

His SH% last year was un-sustainably bad. The opposite extreme of lucky (see Mackinnon in his rookie year for reference). This year it normalized and coupled with better usage, internal growth/development, etc. under Babcock it culminated in greater productivity.

40-50 points as a projection is a pretty extreme and pessimistic viewpoint on him but outside fans can continue to push this narrative.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I'd really like to know what people think a #1 centre is now. I also want whatever the guy is on that put Malkin and Carter as comparables for a 2nd line centre. That's almost bigger then leaving Malkin out of the top 100. There is what 10 teams with a centre with more points then Kadri this season. Also since the lock out shortened season I'm willing to bet he is in the top 30 in points over that time. Considering the dumpster fire that was the leafs I'd say that is pretty good.

Detractors will ignore this post because it doesn't fit their agenda.

 

[Liferleafer]

This time last year he was worth less than RNH and leafs fans wanted to get rid of him like crazy now one good season and it's #1D or bust.

Yes, God forbid we don't want to give away our 2C....stupid Leafs fans...