Confirmed with Link: (NAS/MTL) Shea Weber for P.K. Subban

[David Singleton]

I don't doubt that Weber will thrive in Montreal because of the system (at least while his body can hold up), but from an outsider's perspective I get the feeling that the fans there don't want to play said system and that's where the beef lies. The whole system over Subban scenario.

Hopefully for both teams it turns into a win-win, one-for-one deal much like Johansen for Jones is shaping into for both Nashville and Columbus.

If there is an expectation for Weber to make quick decisions with the puck beyond throwing it up the boards or quickly over to his partner, I'm a bit concerned that he will have a bit of an adjustment period to that need. It's possible that he can't grow that skill much more than where it is today. That skill has never been much of a requirement for him in his time in Nashville having Suter and Josi as partners.

That said, if he's put on the ice with forwards that can dig those pucks out and get them out of the zone, it'll be fine.

He will definitely bring the toughness, leadership, the shot, and his elite defensive positioning to the Habs.

 

[optimus2861]

I don't doubt that Weber will thrive in Montreal because of the system (at least while his body can hold up), but from an outsider's perspective I get the feeling that the fans there don't want to play said system and that's where the beef lies. The whole system over Subban scenario.

Well the perspective of this ex-Habs fan, and many who still consider themselves Habs fans, is that Therrien's system is a proven failure, and no changing of personnel can save it. It's only through the elite play of Price that said system looks like it can generate results. Remove Price, and as last season demonstrated in glaring detail, said system is exposed for the garbage that it is.

And even with Price playing in God mode, as the 14/15 season demonstrated, the best the Canadiens can achieve is a middling playoff exit to a superior team (both superior in talent and especially superior in coaching / systems).

Hopefully for both teams it turns into a win-win, one-for-one deal much like Johansen for Jones is shaping into for both Nashville and Columbus.

The Montreal faithful will spin it as a win, just because Price's return to health will automatically get the team into the playoffs. He is, quite simply, that good. But they have no Cup window now, plain & simple. They will settle back into goaltender-driven results masking mediocre on-ice play, which is where the franchise has largely lingered for the past 20 years, and is probably doomed to stay there for another 20.

 

[rubco55]

Thanks, that's what a lot of people are arguing on the Habs board. PK will thrive in Nashville's system. That's basically what Price is saying but I know you're not biased

You can think what you want.....I believe both teams are getting players they will enjoy.

 

[bdub24]

Here is Carey Price's opinion in an excerpt from a Sportsnet article:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/23-minutes-shook-hockey-world/

<<The most important opinion is Price’s. As he arrived for World Cup training camp, he said he did not know about the trade beforehand.
“No, I was shocked like everyone else. But I had an idea that it was possible. The way our game is structured and the way P.K. plays…we’re headed in a different direction.â€

Can you explain what you mean by that?

“P.K. is an offensive defenceman and a risk-taker. That’s made him successful, that’s the way he plays the game. He doesn’t want to change that and I respect that. I respect the way that he plays the game…his type of enthusiasm and his ability to raise fans out of their seats. That’s a special gift and something that not very many players are able to do. But the way we’re coached on our team, the way our team is structured, that’s not what were looking for. We’re looking for a steady type of defenceman that makes quick plays and is able to move the puck right away. Shea fits that bill perfectly.â€>>

I love Weber, but the only thing I have seen him do quickly is lose his temper.

 

[Drake744]

I love Weber, but the only thing I have seen him do quickly is lose his temper.

His arm acceleration was pretty quick when he drilled Zetterberg's cranium into the glass

 

[TootooTrain]

His arm acceleration was pretty quick when he drilled Zetterberg's cranium into the glass

 

[Kriss E]

to clarify, its not that I feel he's "unproven" but it is definitely "unknown" how he will gel with the team. There are times when a great player isn't a good fit. Now, as others have said, my head tells me PK is a perfect fit for laves style... but I wont feel comfortable until; I see us winning regularly with him

I don't think you need to worry about this. PK is being painted as some type of problem in Mtl because that's what they do there. Always the same story.
PK was extremely popular in Mtl, his talent and numbers speak for themselves, he is very professional, never did anything off the ice that was controversial, so how else can people justify this trade???
Well, Pacioretty didn't smile once when PK was joking around....so..hmm..I guess..Patches has a problem with PK!

A bit of an exaggeration on my part but that is legit how it works in Mtl.
Jacques Demers, last coach to win the cup here, was on TV in 08-09 crying...CRYING...because of some terrible news that was about to hit us. They called it ''The Darkest Day in Habs History''. It ended up being that the Kostitsyn brothers knew a guy that helped them get into clubs..meet women..and he was linked to the mafia. That's how insane things work in Mtl.
So when this is being generated from Mtl, the rest of the media just repeats what they hear, and that's how reputations are spread out.

PK is arguably the best Dman in the NHL. You will see for yourself soon enough.


As for people worrying about the physicality aspect of a PK-Josi pairing, PK can lay some hits out, but if you probably won't get to see much of it because that pairing will be massively driving the play forward.
PK played with Markov here, fair to say Markov is probably even less physical than Josi, if not the same. We had no transition game, the structure in our own end was pure garbage where the forwards are so far away from Dman we have no choice but to dump it out, and PK still managed to make every single player he worked with perform significantly better when on the ice.

I put worrying about how he will blend on your team at the same level as how much he will enjoy the food there. Pretty much a no factor.
You will be scratching your head as to why Mtl traded this guy after a few months.

 

[deanwormer]

I don't think you need to worry about this. PK is being painted as some type of problem in Mtl because that's what they do there. Always the same story.
<snip>
You will be scratching your head as to why Mtl traded this guy after a few months.

I tend to think we'll be very satisfied to have PK. The problem I have with most posters who want to "defend" PK, etc., is they come across like Weber is some over-the-hill has-been. Weber is still among the elite Dmen in the world, and among those that are considered "defensively responsible", physical, etc., how many are even in his class? Doughty? Keith? Beyond that, you get to mostly the "offensive defensemen" = EK, OEL, PK, Josi, etc. Yep, game has changed since Scott Stevens reigned terror on anyone ducking their head, but you still have to clear your zone, you still have to clear your crease... you still have to play defense.

My guess is an objective look at this will end up Weber is better for the next year or two, then age and physicality starts to show and PK is still in his prime, and Nashville sees several more really good years. Whether that means Nashville "wins" the trade or whatever - I dunno, I think it depends on whether Montreal gets further with Weber than they did with PK. Just like Poile came to the conclusion we weren't going to get over the next hump with Weber, maybe Montreal decided they weren't going any further than they have with PK, either? After all, it's not really about individual stats, it's about team performance, unless I'm forgetting the year they gave the trophy to an individual?

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

If there is an expectation for Weber to make quick decisions with the puck beyond throwing it up the boards or quickly over to his partner, I'm a bit concerned that he will have a bit of an adjustment period to that need. It's possible that he can't grow that skill much more than where it is today. That skill has never been much of a requirement for him in his time in Nashville having Suter and Josi as partners.

That said, if he's put on the ice with forwards that can dig those pucks out and get them out of the zone, it'll be fine.

He will definitely bring the toughness, leadership, the shot, and his elite defensive positioning to the Habs.

If there is one thing it seems Therrien loves his defensemen doing, its throwing pucks up the boards in response to pressure.


There is a pretty sizeable contingent of Montreal followers who have concluded that Weber is going to get an excellent showcase of his toughness, positioning and leadership as his pairing gets shelled for shot after shot because the Habs transition game almost never worked without Subban pushing the puck forward by shear personal talent.

Forwards digging pucks out of the zone isn't what Montreal does. The game plan calls for them to fly the zone at the earliest opportunity while the defense is supposed to send them a hail mary shotgun pass into the neutral zone. This worked out well one time against the Bruins in the playoffs (due to their weak team speed) and the coaches were so convinced of their own genius they never stopped.

 

[Kriss E]

I tend to think we'll be very satisfied to have PK. The problem I have with most posters who want to "defend" PK, etc., is they come across like Weber is some over-the-hill has-been. Weber is still among the elite Dmen in the world, and among those that are considered "defensively responsible", physical, etc., how many are even in his class? Doughty? Keith? Beyond that, you get to mostly the "offensive defensemen" = EK, OEL, PK, Josi, etc. Yep, game has changed since Scott Stevens reigned terror on anyone ducking their head, but you still have to clear your zone, you still have to clear your crease... you still have to play defense.

My guess is an objective look at this will end up Weber is better for the next year or two, then age and physicality starts to show and PK is still in his prime, and Nashville sees several more really good years. Whether that means Nashville "wins" the trade or whatever - I dunno, I think it depends on whether Montreal gets further with Weber than they did with PK. Just like Poile came to the conclusion we weren't going to get over the next hump with Weber, maybe Montreal decided they weren't going any further than they have with PK, either? After all, it's not really about individual stats, it's about team performance, unless I'm forgetting the year they gave the trophy to an individual?

It's really not that Weber is over the hill imo. It's that they realize who their coach is. Michel Therrien is a horrible coach. His ability to instill a sound system is non-existant.
There is no structure in the defensive zone. The players chase opponents away and make multiple basic mistakes that really leave you scratching your heads as to what the hell were they thinking.
Now, if that happened once in a while, no biggie, but we're talking pretty much all the time and everyone falls victim to it.

Considering the strengths of Weber, I just don't see him do well under Therrien. You will have the same people saying how great he is because he's blocking all these shots and stopping plays, but they will ignore the fact he will be spending a ton of time stuck in the defensive zone, which isn't a good thing.

 

[Legionnaire11]

People are acting like Weber is the ultimate shutdown defender and Subban can't even spell defense... (yeah he'd probably spell it defence)

PK is very capable defensively and isn't shy about contact either. Preds fans will be pleasantly surprised if they think we're bringing in some creampuff, offense only, ballerina player.

 

[nomorekids]

I tend to think we'll be very satisfied to have PK. The problem I have with most posters who want to "defend" PK, etc., is they come across like Weber is some over-the-hill has-been. Weber is still among the elite Dmen in the world, and among those that are considered "defensively responsible", physical, etc., how many are even in his class? Doughty? Keith? Beyond that, you get to mostly the "offensive defensemen" = EK, OEL, PK, Josi, etc. Yep, game has changed since Scott Stevens reigned terror on anyone ducking their head, but you still have to clear your zone, you still have to clear your crease... you still have to play defense.

My guess is an objective look at this will end up Weber is better for the next year or two, then age and physicality starts to show and PK is still in his prime, and Nashville sees several more really good years. Whether that means Nashville "wins" the trade or whatever - I dunno, I think it depends on whether Montreal gets further with Weber than they did with PK. Just like Poile came to the conclusion we weren't going to get over the next hump with Weber, maybe Montreal decided they weren't going any further than they have with PK, either? After all, it's not really about individual stats, it's about team performance, unless I'm forgetting the year they gave the trophy to an individual?

I see this quite a bit, particularly from our fans, but I don't agree that "Montreal wins the deal for the next year or two, Nashville wins it down the road."

To me, Weber does a couple of things better than Subban, but Subban is already and has been demonstrably and quantifiably better than Weber as an all around defenseman that drives the play. Is Weber more physical, more of a crease-clearer? Absolutely, but do you want the guy that plays 26 minutes a night to be spending the bulk of his time defending, or do you want him generating offensive possession, creating shots and scoring opportunities?

I understand that this is a proof\pudding type scenario, and I'm emphatically NOT bashing Weber or diminishing his legacy. I just think it's possible to think that you're getting the better player now and moving forward without that being tantamount to calling Weber "washed up."

 

[NoNecksCurse]

seen Subban, ryjo, and Neal out together at a bar downtown tonight

 

[nomorekids]

seen Subban, ryjo, and Neal out together at a bar downtown tonight

OH NO IT'S RADULOV AND THE KOSTITSYNS ALL OVER AGAIN!

Actually, I'm really happy to hear this, especially with Neal and Johansen coming up on needing new contracts. Those two are basically the last "core" players that aren't locked up long term, and I'd love to see Johansen locked up for 7-8 years and Neal for another 4-5. We saw players that genuinely didn't want to leave take less than market value to stay longterm...Forsberg, Ekholm, Ellis, Josi...for the first time, EVER, it feels like this is a place that appeals to players beyond just the older, twilight guys that like the family potential.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

ryjo said he wants to sign and get a new deal. talked to him for 5-10 minutes. he said he really likes the team and thinks they should do great things.

 

[Softball99]

http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/rough-beginning-for-max-pacioretty-and-season-hasnt-even-started

Shea may not lose the C after all?!?

 

[Mustard]

Saw Subban as I was leaving Maf's last night! Don't like talking to famous people (I wouldn't if I were them) so I just kept going. Cool to see, though! (Didn't see the 18 or 92, but I didn't really look)

 

[RaiderDoug]

Saw Subban as I was leaving Maf's last night! Don't like talking to famous people (I wouldn't if I were them) so I just kept going. Cool to see, though! (Didn't see the 18 or 92, but I didn't really look)

You have to like the idea that PK has seemed to really buy into being a part of Nashville.

I know Weber was great in the community, but I've always been a believer that the leader and captain and face of the franchise needs to be so much more than "show up, play well, go home, never otherwise seen".

Let's just hope PK doesn't overdue it. Although he didn't in Montreal, which I think has a similar nightlife options and possibilities for distractions - neither would be confused with Buffalo.

 

[triggrman]

http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/rough-beginning-for-max-pacioretty-and-season-hasnt-even-started

Shea may not lose the C after all?!?

I didn't see any comment that would make you think that... Did I miss it?

 

[Drake744]

I'm getting worried about all the PK publicity by the Preds(not the fans) but the organization. When the trade was fresh and he first came to town, it was cool. But it just persists and there have to be teammates who are tiring of it. For example, PK is not the only Pred currently skating here but the publicity continues to act like he is. If this was what was happening in Montreal it might have gotten old with some players. There's a team over there and some of them have actually produced for the Preds. I love the trade and welcome him here but the organization needs to lighten up a little before they generate a problem where none exists. Time for hockey.

I don't know how much that'll affect the locker room. It depends on the personality of each guy. I don't see us as a room of dynamic personalities so as of now I don't see him clashing with anyone anyway. I also think his persona is being overblown quite a bit. Just because he likes the spotlight doesn't mean he's a diva.

As far as the publicity, Nashville with Subban will still be behind that of many teams in the league and far behind that of all Canadian teams. If it's the organization themselves going out of their ways to put him in the public eye, I think that's fine. We're still a market that needs a real face of the Preds and now we have one. I think most of his teammates understand how he's seen across the league and should be fine with it.

 

[Price is Wright]

I'm getting worried about all the PK publicity by the Preds(not the fans) but the organization. When the trade was fresh and he first came to town, it was cool. But it just persists and there have to be teammates who are tiring of it. For example, PK is not the only Pred currently skating here but the publicity continues to act like he is. If this was what was happening in Montreal it might have gotten old with some players. There's a team over there and some of them have actually produced for the Preds. I love the trade and welcome him here but the organization needs to lighten up a little before they generate a problem where none exists. Time for hockey.

For a while TSN acted like the only person who played for Nashville was Mike Fisher.

 

[Adz]

I see no problem with it. It shows mutual respect for the organizations as being pro teams when the players treat each other as equals. I liked seeing Mariota wearing a Preds jersey. I enjoy the Twitter interactions between players from each team. The Preds are going to promote PK because he's the new guy, a Norris trophy winning player, he's comfortable with the camera, and he's a black athlete who may open up hockey to another marketing group. DeMarco Murray with PK Subban and Neal on Titans social media will open some eyes, and maybe some pocketbooks.

 

[PredsV82]

this thread is over 1000

do we need a new thread for Subban talk or just close it and use Observations like any other general Preds talk?

 

[Drake744]

this thread is over 1000

do we need a new thread for Subban talk or just close it and use Observations like any other general Preds talk?

Probably would be better to have a Part 2 because there's still a lot of talk right now during the dead period. Once the season starts, the Observations thread will likely start getting the general topics again.

 

[jwhouk]

New Thread Here