Value of: Leon Draisaitl for a defenseman

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Dbrownss

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How about you talk about hockey and be respectful. Focus on the debate and not that you dislike what others are saying or can't convince them to think what you think. I stand alone against many and I'm very reasonable. I'm not going to back down because you say so. Come up with your own impartial material and present your case. Were not all going to agree. I may be alone but the points I'm making are not ridiculous. The frustration and personal attacks are ridiculous. My replies are only to other posts that go on attack mode. Go follow the trail if you have time lol
You are not being reasonable though or even impartial. Your trying to sell Sergachev as an elite asset when he nothing more then a potential elite asset. Several times, Oiler fans have just flat out said no, yet you continue. You then proceed to convince people how Sergachev is a better fit to the McDavid core while Chiarelli has been surrounding him with more vetern skaters. You continually dismiss Faulk as a bad target because he could walk in 4 years, That simply isnt reasonable. McDavid is ready NOW, you dont need to "plan" for the future with him. For what Oiler fans are asking for, Faulk is a good target if he were ever available.
 

Starat327

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You would be a terrible GM. A really bad one!

And here i thought we were being nice, reasonable, and respectful?

I see we've also come full circle again with the "You cant risk losing your #1D man after 4 years (half a max term contract, mind you) because he may not want to sign. Instead, you should gamble that this prospect becomes the elite offensive d man i know hes going to become, because my sources told me so."
 

Jordeau

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Aug 8, 2014
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Your really willing to take a chance on just 4 years and a chance to extend Faulk? If so, you must also get a 1st round pick to go along with it. Will the Cans go for that? Not sure.

If I was an Oilers fan, I like Faulk but need way more in that deal. I never would trade a 21 year old guy who is a top 6 center with a great all around game for a guy who is UFA in a couple of seasons. If I wanted a potential elite level Defenseman, I target guys near McDavid's age and someone in team control for many seasons (RFA). The problem I would have with the Habs 1st round pick is it will be a later round pick (probably)

It is clear to literally everyone else in this thread that it is significantly riskier to "take a chance" on Sergachev panning out as a top-pairing defenseman than to trade for Faulk and try to resign him over the 4 YEARS that he's under contract. You keep refusing to acknowledge the numbers that people have been posting about the percent of defensemen picked in the top 10 that turn into top-pairing defensemen. It's incredibly risky to trade a guaranteed #2 center with potential to be a high-end #1 center for a defenseman who has a better chance of being a 3rd pairing Dman than a legit #1 Dman. I wouldn't even say it's risky, but straight up dumb. Especially when there are other, better, safer options potentially on the table (Parayko and Faulk) and there's no immediate pressure to make a trade since McDavid still has a few years before he enters his prime.
 

CaptainSexyPants

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Sep 27, 2012
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Come up with a better argument. This is a better argument... The Oilers would prefer to acquire a Faulk type and take the risk of losing him to UFA in 4 seasons. I don't like the Trade for the Oilers but some do. Faulk might give the Oilers what you need for 4 seasons but then you might (maybe) lose him to UFA. That's not a good return for a guy like Drai IMO.

But at least you've got 4 seasons of a #1 defenseman in his prime, with the inside track to extend him beyond that. Very good chance Sergachev may never even be a #2, let alone a #1...but even if he is; he won't be one for the 7 vs. 4 years you're talking about here. Maybe at 24? 6 years from now? Maybe..? That's a terrible gamble to take.

Kessel and many others were traded for 1st round draft picks where the player they get back is not even known yet or where in the 1st round it will be. There is your "makes sense"

The whole idea here is that we're talking due to the depth the Oilers have at C with McDavid and RNH, what kind of value might he have and what sort of a trade may make sense for the Oilers. That's the (hypothetical) reason to deal Draisaitl.

What were the reasons behind those "many other" trades you mention? That context means everything in this discussion.

Did the player request a trade?
Does he have a bad attitude?
Hard-partier that can't buy into 'team'?
Does the club have cap/budget problems and can't afford him?
Is the player underachieving?
Does the team simply not have room for him at the moment?

Because Draisaitl doesn't fit into any of those categories. I'm curious as to how many comparable's you can list over the past decade or so- who also do not fit in that above list- that would help explain how a Sergachev centerpiece would make any kind of sense.
 

Homesick

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I clicked on one name and with one move I cut this thread in half.

Draisaitl is a luxury so I would be open to trading him for a PM RHD if I were the Oilers. Not a bunch of magic beans(which equals HF hot air until they bust more often than not :laugh:)
 

ManofSteel55

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I never never never would trade Drai for a guy who is UFA in 4 years straight up. That's a desperate move man. Yes you have the possibility of re-signing him but the team loses control. Remember, although Drai will demand a good salary, he's under team control for at least another 8-11 years taking him right through his prime years.

The unpopular move (but smarter move IMO) is to acquire top end prospects and picks and have them grow with McDavid. Sign Faulk as an UFA in 4 seasons if you have to! Acquiring a #1D with skating and offense is not going to be easy!

You would be an awful GM. Atrocious. You are literally saying that you would rather gamble on prospects than take a long term signed sure thing. That is how teams become bottom feeders and stay there.

For the record, I'm in the "we aren't trading Draisaitl" camp, so I probably wouldn't trade him for Faulk anymore either (there was a time though). But I would sure as hell rather have those 4 years of Faulk with probably re-signing him than risk getting nothing.
 

57special

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I clicked on one name and with one move I cut this thread in half.

Draisaitl is a luxury so I would be open to trading him for a PM RHD if I were the Oilers. Not a bunch of magic beans(which equals HF hot air until they bust more often than not :laugh:)

I'm stunned that you would consider it.

OK, then. Spurgeon and Coyle. Salaries wouldn't work at all, so we'd have to take some of your cap crap, as long as they don't have NMC's.
 

ManofSteel55

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I'm stunned that you would consider it.

OK, then. Spurgeon and Coyle. Salaries wouldn't work at all, so we'd have to take some of your cap crap, as long as they don't have NMC's.

We don't really have cap crap. Maybe Pouliot, but even he is worth it when playing well.

Honestly, its not a bad offer, I'd just far prefer to keep Neon Leon.
 

GoldiFox

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I never never never would trade Drai for a guy who is UFA in 4 years straight up. That's a desperate move man. Yes you have the possibility of re-signing him but the team loses control. Remember, although Drai will demand a good salary, he's under team control for at least another 8-11 years taking him right through his prime years.

The unpopular move (but smarter move IMO) is to acquire top end prospects and picks and have them grow with McDavid. Sign Faulk as an UFA in 4 seasons if you have to! Acquiring a #1D with skating and offense is not going to be easy!

Realistically Faulk is what you hope and pray Sergachev can eventually become and he will take at least 2-3 years to get there (if he ever does which is still an if).

Trade for Faulk instead and you:

1) Cut out the 2-3 years of development time to reach #1 status
2) Eliminate all risk that comes with a prospect potentially never reaching that status

D take longer to fully develop that F. Faulk at age 24 is more in like with McDavid's progression at 19 (about to be 20).
 

Homesick

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I'm stunned that you would consider it.

OK, then. Spurgeon and Coyle. Salaries wouldn't work at all, so we'd have to take some of your cap crap, as long as they don't have NMC's.
I hate how small Spurgeon is but you'll hate my "cap crap" more :laugh:

Draisaitl + Fayne

for

Spurgeon + Coyle
 

57special

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We don't really have cap crap. Maybe Pouliot, but even he is worth it when playing well.

Honestly, its not a bad offer, I'd just far prefer to keep Neon Leon.

Don't blame you, but I won't apologize for the offer, either. Not sure that Fletcher would even go for it. Those two are, I'm guessing, his two favorite players.
 

ManofSteel55

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Don't blame you, but I won't apologize for the offer, either. Not sure that Fletcher would even go for it. Those two are, I'm guessing, his two favorite players.

No need to apologize, those are two good players. Thanks for the legit offer, its more than we usually get around here. (Sergachev, cough)
 

57special

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I hate how small Spurgeon is but you'll hate my "cap crap" more :laugh:

Draisaitl + Fayne

for

Spurgeon + Coyle

Yeah, Fayne is useless for us, but we'd have to take him, and maybe even something else, for the deal to happen.

BTW, in the first couple of years I used to worry about Spurgeon, and thought he'd end up out of the league because of concussions or injuries of some sort. Absolutely no worries now. He is surprisingly physical for a little guy that looks 15yo, and his agility with his stick and skates allows him to play superb D. He 'll miss the odd game because of a bang or bruise, but no more(and probably less) than most players.

Boudreau was on the air today and was asked what player has surprised him the most on coming to the Wild, and he said,
"Spurgeon . I knew him a bit, but had never realized what a good player he was."

The main problem with this deal(and why it'll probably never happen), is that the Wild will already be down a Dman, probably, after the ****ing expansion draft. Losing Spurgeon also would be a killer.
 

bestmyfeeling

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Draisatl does not have more value than Hall had last season. It's just that probably being the worst trade in NHL history, you'll still expect the potential return for Draisatl to be 3x better.

exaggerate much? good thing MTL never traded Patrick Roy for magic beans or you know give away Ryan Mcdonagh for that Scott Gomez guy...if only Edmonton could make trades like that

not to mention Drai>Hall IMO

C>LW
entry contract vs $6 mill (not that hall contract is bad, just entry level is so much better)
 
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Oberyn

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Oilers need to stop drafting. Those prospects are UFA in 7 years! You're willing to take a risk on them walking in just 7 years?!
 

KarmaPolice

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replied too quick, but yeah Hall has never scored 30 goals

Center has more value than wingers

That's something that a lot of people keep missing in the equation of value in the Hall for Larsson trade. Was it a fair trade? No; Oilers definitely did not get fair value. But is it as egregious had it been Seguin for Larsson instead of Hall? Ask the GMs in the league, and I would bet if not all 30 would take Seguin over Hall, it would be close. Yet these two have a very similar offensive ouput at this point in their careers. The difference is, Seguin is a center, and it's just a fact that they hold a LOT more value than wingers. All you have to do is look at past trades and the draft. Centers always get valued more, and it's usually not even that close. Another thing is that, even if their total offensive output has been similar to this point, Seguin has put up 30 goal seasons, while Hall has not one under his belt. Just look at the value Kessel got: a winger who has scored 30 goals MANY times, and has flirted with 40 a couple times. If he was a center, how much more value do you suppose he would've got? There would've been at least a few GMs fighting each other to get through the door to work out a deal to trade for him, no question; THAT is how big the value difference is between centers and wingers. So yeah. A top line winger holds a LOT less value than a top line center or top pairing Dman -- by far.

With all of that being what it is, I would say Drai has more value with most GMs at this point (if not all) than Hall. Hall still has a lot of value, but I would just bet Drai has more. Of course, there's no way to know for sure without polling all the GMs and asking them. But that would be my guess, and going by history, it seems logically to be the case. The factors in play that I can think of that give Drai more value are: Drai is a center, Hall is not; Drai makes a LOT less money, and is under control a lot longer (younger); Drai is for sure a #2 C, and tracking to be a big, Kopitar-like #1C, and that is obviously VERY valuable (even if he plays as a #2C behind McDavid, just like Malkin is still a #1 quality C behind Sid); Drai is bigger and stronger; Drai has less serious injuries thus far (knock on wood); Drai is better defensively (he regularly works his butt off to get back and break up plays with ability beyond his years), etc. That's by no means an extensive list, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot. Again, Hall has a lot of value, but I truly think Drai has more.

So yeah. Hall for Larsson wasn't a fair trade for us, but people forget just how much the difference in value between wingers and centers. If Hall was a center was it would've been an egregious trade. But he is NOT a center. It's still bad, but NOT that bad. Trading Drai for Larsson -- now THERE would've been a downright HORRIBLE move, up there with the worst of all time. Fans tend to over-rate wingers, yet GMs don't seem to put a ton of value into them. That's something we should think about more often -- there must be a method behind their madness when every GM thinks this way. Also, Larsson still has some untapped potential as well, as many defensive Dman take the longest fully develop and hit their ceiling. Two examples off the top of my head that were Oilers are Jason Smith (finally hit his stride at the age of about 26) and Stve Staios (hit his stride also about 26/27). Have to go back that far because that's how long it's truly been since we had a really solid defensive Dman, which is sad. We really did need Larsson VERY bad. Just showing that exercise should make it obvious. So we'll need to wait about 2 years to truly see what Larsson is to properly judge the trade. Still think it will be a win for NJ, but not as big as most think.
 
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PuckG

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Draisatl does not have more value than Hall had last season. It's just that probably being the worst trade in NHL history, you'll still expect the potential return for Draisatl to be 3x better.

Worst trade in NHL history? Your team is more worthy of that/those than the Oilers.
 

Homesick

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Draisatl does not have more value than Hall had last season. It's just that probably being the worst trade in NHL history, you'll still expect the potential return for Draisatl to be 3x better.
How did Hall have more value last off season than Draisaitl does now?

Age: Draisaitl > Hall
Contract: Draisaitl > Hall
Size: Draisaitl > Hall
Position C > LW
Two-way play: Draisaitl > Hall

Hall was coming off of 38 and 65 point seasons as well where as Draisaitl is still improving.

Not bashing Hall as I'm one of the few that wanted to keep him just because how many years he had to carry a crap team. But facts are facts.

BTW, Worse trade in history: June 30, 2009 Gomez, and Pyatt for Higgins, and McDonagh :laugh:
 

DavidBL

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I never never never would trade Drai for a guy who is UFA in 4 years straight up. That's a desperate move man. Yes you have the possibility of re-signing him but the team loses control. Remember, although Drai will demand a good salary, he's under team control for at least another 8-11 years taking him right through his prime years.

The unpopular move (but smarter move IMO) is to acquire top end prospects and picks and have them grow with McDavid. Sign Faulk as an UFA in 4 seasons if you have to! Acquiring a #1D with skating and offense is not going to be easy!

This is where your reasoning is inaccurate. Each team is guaranteed 7 years of service per the CBA. Anything after that and you're buying UFA years and are hardly a guaranteed buy. What that means is the least you have from LD is 4 more years after this. After that you're looking at the same situation as you are with Faulk. LD will command 6 mill as all the other high end forwards in EDM did if not more. So Faulk will be cheaper for the next 4 years.
 

OnTheBrink

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Apr 19, 2013
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Faulk + Lindholm

For

Draisaitl + 2017 1st + Fayne (cap) + 2018 3rd (for taking Faynes cap)

Lucic - McDavid - Puljujarvi
Pouliot - RNH - Eberle
Cagguila - Lindolm - Kassian
Maroon - Letestu - Pitlick

Sekera - Faulk
Klefbom - Larsson
Nurse - Russell

Talbot
 

spockBokk

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Sep 8, 2013
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Faulk + Lindholm

For

Draisaitl + 2017 1st + Fayne (cap) + 2018 3rd (for taking Faynes cap)

Lucic - McDavid - Puljujarvi
Pouliot - RNH - Eberle
Cagguila - Lindolm - Kassian
Maroon - Letestu - Pitlick

Sekera - Faulk
Klefbom - Larsson
Nurse - Russell

Talbot

Why on earth would CAR add to Faulk for Draisatl?

Granted Lindholm hasn't shown much this year, but GMRF certainly could do better than that filler for Lindholm. Faulk for Draisatl straight up or there's no deal to be had.
 

thadd

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Unless Leon regresses significantly or Edmonton is offered a massive overpayment, Drai isn't going anywhere.

Edmonton isn't going back to the rebuild.

Pouliot, Eberle and Hopkins are obviously available.

Pouliot is probably getting picked up in the expansion draft.
At the start of the year I was convinced that Eberle was going before Hopkins, but it's really up in the air at this point.

I think value of Hopkins + Nurse or Eberle + Nurse is much more worthy of a thread at this point and NO it's not getting you a top 5 defender.
 
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