Value of: Leon Draisaitl for a defenseman

[Habs Halifax]

This is where your reasoning is inaccurate. Each team is guaranteed 7 years of service per the CBA. Anything after that and you're buying UFA years and are hardly a guaranteed buy. What that means is the least you have from LD is 4 more years after this. After that you're looking at the same situation as you are with Faulk. LD will command 6 mill as all the other high end forwards in EDM did if not more. So Faulk will be cheaper for the next 4 years.

Your searching here man... Oilers have two options with Drai. 1) Sign him to a 3 year bridge deal and then 8 years deal after that. 2) Sign him right away this off season to 8 years (buying 4 years of RFA and 4 years or UFA). Regardless, it's more than likely a 8 year deal that will be signed. Just depends if a bridge contract is signed in between or not. So that's... 8-11 years of team control.

Your really going to compare contract situation and RFA years remaining between Drai and Faulk as being the same? No disrespect, but I feel your searching real hard to disagree which is not making you good!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Why on earth would CAR add to Faulk for Draisatl?

Granted Lindholm hasn't shown much this year, but GMRF certainly could do better than that filler for Lindholm. Faulk for Draisatl straight up or there's no deal to be had.

I feel the Cains would have to add to the deal slightly. Faulk is good but Drai is 21, already good and considered a top 6 center in the NHL. Question is what would have to be added? I think a 2nd round pick at the minimum. Faulk is UFA in 3 seasons after this one. That worries me as there is no guarantees beyond that and the Oilers lose control once Faulk becomes UFA. Also, by playing with the Oilers and McDavid on the PP, Faulks #'s more than likely increase and his next contract will have a major increase! No Guarantees he wants to stay in Edmonton and the Oilers have no control over that!

Centers like Drai are extremely hard to acquire. Defenseman like Faulk are rare as well but there are more available IMO. It's close though and if Faulk was signed for 6 more years after this one (instead of 3), I'd say a player for player swap makes more sense.

 

[Habs Halifax]

After this season if Draisaitl can put up 30 goals, 60 + points, It will be close.

It's about supply and demand. More people knock on the door for Draisaitl than they would for Hall IMO. Therefore, you will get more for Draisaitl because of bidding wars. Center vs LW is really what it comes down to.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Your searching here man... Oilers have two options with Drai. 1) Sign him to a 3 year bridge deal and then 8 years deal after that. 2) Sign him right away this off season to 8 years (buying 4 years of RFA and 4 years or UFA). Regardless, it's more than likely a 8 year deal that will be signed. Just depends if a bridge contract is signed in between or not. So that's... 8-11 years of team control.

Your really going to compare contract situation and RFA years remaining between Drai and Faulk as being the same? No disrespect, but I feel your searching real hard to disagree which is not making you good!

And how do you know that Draisaitl wants an 8 year deal? If he doesn't we can't make him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

And how do you know that Draisaitl wants an 8 year deal? If he doesn't we can't make him.

You can't make Faulk re-sign after 3.5 seasons either . There is no reason to think Draisaitl would not want a 8 year deal unless it comes down to too much $/season for the Oilers. If he doesn't, then it's a 3 year bridge contract. The Oilers hold the power in this negations as he is RFA for another 4 years after this year!

Regardless, Draisaitl would be guaranteed to be with the Oilers for more time than Faulk would be. That's the clear point I've been trying to make and the major difference between Drai and Faulk! That's why I'm saying it's not a good deal for the Oilers and they need to get more in return and the Cains probably don't want to do it. Cains value Faulk pretty high but 3 more years and then UFA will limit his value.

This is a pretty fair reasonable break down from a person not a Oilers or Cains fan. I know some Oilers fan want that #1D now but if you look hard enough at all teams and who are good trading partners, the options are very limited and the best return is a package deal acquiring premium prospects or 1st round picks while McDavid is still only 19. Drai stays in Edmonton and most realize this but this thread is out there and it's interesting to see what potential options there actually is.

 

[Starat327]

You can't make Faulk re-sign after 3.5 seasons either . There is no reason to think Draisaitl would not want a 8 year deal unless it comes down to too much $/season for the Oilers. If he doesn't, then it's a 3 year bridge contract. The Oilers hold the power in this negations as he is RFA for another 4 years after this year!

Regardless, Draisaitl would be guaranteed to be with the Oilers for more time than Faulk would be. That's the clear point I've been trying to make and the major difference between Drai and Faulk! That's why I'm saying it's not a good deal for the Oilers and they need to get more in return and the Cains probably don't want to do it. Cains value Faulk pretty high but 3 more years and then UFA will limit his value.

This is a pretty fair reasonable break down from a person not a Oilers or Cains fan. I know some Oilers fan want that #1D now but if you look hard enough at all teams and who are good trading partners, the options are very limited and the best return is a package deal acquiring premium prospects or 1st round picks while McDavid is still only 19. Drai stays in Edmonton and most realize this but this thread is out there and it's interesting to see what potential options there actually is.

Drai could easily say he doesnt want ti play second fiddle to McDavid and not sign anything that takes him past UFA. There is no guarantee that Drai is under team control longer than Faulk.

Also, you keep speaking to the bolded, but literally EVERY oiler fan in this thread disagrees with you for the following reasons:

A) You cant go from bottom feeder to contender right away. You have to make the playoffs first.

B) Your entire team can't be made up of ELC players. You need players with experience. Faulk offers that, and is young enough to grow.

C) Defenders generally have a longer productive life than forwards. They take longer to develop usually, but its outweighed by the fact that they can usually play longer at a higher level.

D) I don't think there's any D prospects at this point that are a 'sure' thing (and this coming from a fan of a team who probably has one of, if not the best, D prospect pool in the league). They trade Drai for a maybe, and hope they become as good as a player like Faulk or Parayako. If the player busts, they are right where they are now, but only without a great 2/1 C in hand.

You are free to have the opinion that the Oilers best bet is to trade Drai for picks and prospects. But your opinion is not shared by anyone in this thread, and you aren't doing anything to convince anyone otherwise.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Drai could easily say he doesnt want ti play second fiddle to McDavid and not sign anything that takes him past UFA. There is no guarantee that Drai is under team control longer than Faulk.

Also, you keep speaking to the bolded, but literally EVERY oiler fan in this thread disagrees with you for the following reasons:

A) You cant go from bottom feeder to contender right away. You have to make the playoffs first.

B) Your entire team can't be made up of ELC players. You need players with experience. Faulk offers that, and is young enough to grow.

C) Defenders generally have a longer productive life than forwards. They take longer to develop usually, but its outweighed by the fact that they can usually play longer at a higher level.

D) I don't think there's any D prospects at this point that are a 'sure' thing (and this coming from a fan of a team who probably has one of, if not the best, D prospect pool in the league). They trade Drai for a maybe, and hope they become as good as a player like Faulk or Parayako. If the player busts, they are right where they are now, but only without a great 2/1 C in hand.

You are free to have the opinion that the Oilers best bet is to trade Drai for picks and prospects. But your opinion is not shared by anyone in this thread, and you aren't doing anything to convince anyone otherwise.

I'm not going to talk about the RFA of Drai vs 3 years left of Faulk then UFA anymore. If you don't see this, your on a wild witch hunt to justify your hard on for Faulk. It smells of desperation and the Oilers don't need to be. I realize you haven't made the playoffs for years but good days are coming. Keep building the core around McDavid and you will be a playoff team for many seasons. Your more than likely a playoff team regardless of weather you have Faulk or Drai this season. It's all about 2+ years from now when McDavid enters his real prime years and the Oilers may be considered cup contenders with a few Smart moves!

If you "ever" make the Drai for Faulk deal... you better get more on top of Faulk (1st or 2nd round pick or mid tier prospect kind of addition).

I love the "no Oiler fan" agrees with you. You really think an Oiler fan is going to stick up for another fan who is not a Oiler fan? Please move on from these comments as his holds no value.

 

[Starat327]

I'm going to talk about the RFA of Drai vs 3 years left of Faulk then UFA anymore. If you don't see this your on a wild witch hunt to justify your hard on for Faulk. It smells of desperation and the Oilers don't need to be. I realize you haven't made the playoffs for years but good days are coming. Keep building the core around McDavid and you will be a playoff team for many seasons. Your more than likely a playoff team regardless of weather you have Faulk or Drai this season. It's all about 2+ years from now when McDavid enters his real prime years and the Oilers may be considered cup contenders with a few Smart moves!


If you "ever" make the Drai for Faulk deal... you better get more on top of Faulk (1st or 2nd round pick or mid tier prospect kind of addition).

Honestly, the only one being obstinate on a wild hunt here, is you.

Why do you keep saying 'you'? I've identified myself as a non-oiler fan multiple times. Hell, i have a Flyers avatar. It honestly just proves you aren't reading what anyone is saying, and just keep spewing the same rhetoric over and over again.

Typical - someone makes a point I can't counter, so "im not going to talk about it anymore." Most have come to the realization that the chances of Drai saying screw it are roughly equal to Faulk, or Parayako, etc., saying "i hate edmonton, i dont want to be here anymore" after their current contracts are up.

And two years from now, when McDavid is entering his prime, are these picks and prospects that Drai is traded for going to be the #1 D? Extremely unlikely. In regards to what was originally proposed, i believe it was Beau, Sergachev and Plek.

So two years from now the oilers lose Plek, hope Sergachev has become the elite offensive D that you foresee, and likely have to find someone to trade Beau to cause he's buried on the Oilers depth chart. Seems like a total win move for the future.

 

[snipes]

How is this still going?

This was a value thread, I think we've reached a consensus amongst reasonable fans from a variety of fan bases that the value of Drai is Parayko/Faulk straight up.

We're denigrating into contract talks now, and weird hypotheticals. I admire HG's tenacity on the topic to continue this over multiple days in the face of continual rejections.

No point keeping this going. Drai will be an Oiler for a very long time, him and McDavid are close and these two are high character guys that want to build something with the team that drafted them.

 

[Habs Halifax]

How is this still going?

This was a value thread, I think we've reached a consensus amongst reasonable fans from a variety of fan bases that the value of Drai is Parayko/Faulk straight up.

We're denigrating into contract talks now, and weird hypotheticals. I admire HG's tenacity on the topic to continue this over multiple days in the face of continual rejections.

No point keeping this going. Drai will be an Oiler for a very long time, him and McDavid are close and these two are high character guys that want to build something with the team that drafted them.

It keeps going because Drai's value and what return you want, need, and should get back is an interesting debate. No doubt Drai stays an Oilers but if he is moved, hope PC knows what he is doing!

 

[snipes]

It keeps going because Drai's value and what return you want, need, and should get back is an interesting debate. No doubt Drai stays an Oilers but if he is moved, hope PC knows what he is doing!

For sure, but you're ignoring the repeated explanation about our needs.

We don't want magic beans or potential. If Drai is moved, the only move is for a right shot NHL player right now that helps us win. 1 for 1 quality for quality. No magic beans or teenage Dmen, and no quantity for quality.

You're unlikely to listen though.

 

[Starat327]

For sure, but you're ignoring the repeated explanation about our needs.

We don't want magic beans or potential. If Drai is moved, the only move is for a right shot NHL player right now that helps us win. 1 for 1 quality for quality. No magic beans or teenage Dmen, and no quantity for quality.

You're unlikely to listen though.

That isn't the right move. You're wrong. You'd make a terrible GM.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Honestly, the only one being obstinate on a wild hunt here, is you.

Why do you keep saying 'you'? I've identified myself as a non-oiler fan multiple times. Hell, i have a Flyers avatar. It honestly just proves you aren't reading what anyone is saying, and just keep spewing the same rhetoric over and over again.

Typical - someone makes a point I can't counter, so "im not going to talk about it anymore." Most have come to the realization that the chances of Drai saying screw it are roughly equal to Faulk, or Parayako, etc., saying "i hate edmonton, i dont want to be here anymore" after their current contracts are up.

And two years from now, when McDavid is entering his prime, are these picks and prospects that Drai is traded for going to be the #1 D? Extremely unlikely. In regards to what was originally proposed, i believe it was Beau, Sergachev and Plek.

So two years from now the oilers lose Plek, hope Sergachev has become the elite offensive D that you foresee, and likely have to find someone to trade Beau to cause he's buried on the Oilers depth chart. Seems like a total win move for the future.

In 2 plus years from now when McDavid is 21...

- Faulk will be 26 and one year from UFA and needs a new contract.

- Drai will be 23 and still 2 more years of RFA (Depending on what contract is signed this off season). Regardless, he's under team control for the most part and is more than likely signed till later part of his 20's at some point in the next 4 seasons.

- Sergachev will be 20. He's more than likely in the NHL next season and entering his 2nd season and under team control for a very long time (6 more years of RFA). What he develops into and how long it takes is a wild card but he's a premium elite level prospect with all the skills and no weakness to his game other than lack of experience. The evaluation on Sergachev will be better known at the end of this season (as I stated many times and also when the deal potential could be made).

- ????? (other pieces of the deal). Depends on what the Oilers want as addition on top of Sergachev (if the deal is made with the Habs). I say 1st round pick, Beaulieu, Gally, McCarron, are the guys the Habs can offer as pieces. Not all of them of course but those are the options. All players under team control for a long time except for Gally.. he's UFA in 2021.

 

[Starat327]

In 2 plus years from now when McDavid is 21...

- Faulk will be 26 and one year from UFA and needs a new contract.

- Drai will be 23 and still 2 more years of RFA (Depending on what contract is signed this off season). Regardless, he's under team control for the most part and is more than likely signed till later part of his 20's at some point in the next 4 seasons.

- Sergachev will be 20. He's more than likely in the NHL next season and entering his 2nd season and under team control for a very long time (6 more years of RFA). What he develops into and how long it takes is a wild card but he's a premium elite level prospect with all the skills and no weakness to his game other than lack of experience.

- ????? (other pieces of the deal). Depends on what the Oilers want as addition on top of Sergachev (if the deal is made with the Habs). I say 1st round pick, Beaulieu, Gally, McCarron, are the guys the Habs can offer as pieces. Not all of them of course but those are the options. All players under team control for a long time except for Gally.. he's UFA in 2021.

doesnt matter what Drai would or wouldnt be. In either scenario, he is no longer an Oiler, and not their concern.

So your argument comes down to the elite level prospect that sergachev is, and the hope that he can translate it to the NHL, or a player who is already playing extremely well as a RHD #1.

"all players under team control for a long time except gally, UFA in 2021."
That's 5 years from now. I'd say that's a long time. I'm utterly baffled by your overvaluation of 'team control' as the defining attribute as to whether a trade should be made. It plays a part, but there's other things that are more important.. like you know, actual skill?

 

[snipes]

That isn't the right move. You're wrong. You'd make a terrible GM.

Still doesn't get it, our window is just opening right now. We only have McDavid on an ELC until the end of the 2017-18 season, we need to try to win now.

HG's answer? Trade a beastly centre who is the best forward from his draft class for a magic bean that makes the team immediately worse. Exact opposite of trying to win now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Still doesn't get it, our window is just opening right now. We only have McDavid on an ELC until the end of the 2017-18 season, we need to try to win now.

HG's answer? Trade a beastly centre who is the best forward from his draft class for a magic bean that makes the team immediately worse. Exact opposite of trying to win now.

And I don't get it eh?...McDavid is almost gone after the 2017-2018 season eh and you need to win now right? Well if you trade Drai for Faulk straight up, then yeah, McDavid will say WTF and want to leave! lol

 

[Habs Halifax]

doesnt matter what Drai would or wouldnt be. In either scenario, he is no longer an Oiler, and not their concern.

So your argument comes down to the elite level prospect that sergachev is, and the hope that he can translate it to the NHL, or a player who is already playing extremely well as a RHD #1.

"all players under team control for a long time except gally, UFA in 2021."
That's 5 years from now. I'd say that's a long time. I'm utterly baffled by your overvaluation of 'team control' as the defining attribute as to whether a trade should be made. It plays a part, but there's other things that are more important.. like you know, actual skill?

It matters because of comparing contracts and what control the team has. But you don't acknowledge this so yeah it don't matter. lol

 

[snipes]

And I don't get it eh?...McDavid is almost gone after the 2017-2018 season eh and you need to win now right? Well if you trade Drai for Faulk straight up, then yeah, McDavid will say WTF and want to leave! lol

We're not trading Drai. This is a value thread.

What? McDavid gone after 2017-18? No, it means we don't have time to wait around for maybes. We want NHL players right now on this team. There's urgency to assemble a winning roster around him right now.

Don't have time to wait 5-7 years for Sergachev to hit his peak. Drai is just about to enter his peak now (forwards peak earlier than Dmen). Only way to move a guy like that is for a 23-26 year old equivalent NHL calibre Dman right now. Which we've established across the board is Parayko/Faulk in terms of value.

Anyways, Drai is here long term. You're purposefully being obtuse and irrational. I do admire your tenacity to continue this for days though, I was shocked this was still going .

 

[Habs Halifax]

I may be a die hard Habs fan but I am watching out for the Oilers because I want them to succeed. I also cheer for all Canadian teams so where are my motives? To make both the Habs and Oilers better. Criticize me if you wish but all the stuff I have said is for both teams interest.

I challenge Oilers fan to seriously think what you need on the back end and how your going to acquire the Subban/Doughty/Karlsson type when McDavid is still only 19. Faulk is not that elite but very good offensively... but you need more in that trade to make up for only 3 years of contract then UFA.

 

[snipes]

I may be a die hard Habs fan but I am watching out for the Oilers because I want them to succeed. I also cheer for all Canadian teams so where are my motives? To make both the Habs and Oilers better. Criticize me if you wish but all the stuff I have said is for both teams interest.

I challenge Oilers fan to seriously think what you need on the back end and how your going to acquire the Subban/Doughty/Karlsson type when McDavid is still only 19. Faulk is not that elite but very good offensively... but you need more in that trade to make up for only 3 years of contract then UFA.

You keep thinking we're trying to do this. We aren't and we can't acquire players like that, the costs are astronomical.

No one has said once we're trying to acquire Dmen like that, literally not a single person besides you.

 

[Starat327]

It matters because of comparing contracts and what control the team has. But you don't acknowledge this so yeah it don't matter. lol

If the Oilers are trying to get a RHD to put them over the top, and they are interested in moving Drai to do it (they arent, as has been clearly expressed), the contract status of Drai means very little to them in the grand scheme of things.

It becomes part of the negotiation, sure. But Chiarelli isnt going to go to Bergevin and say "Well, i only got Drai for 4 more years. But that Sergachev guy? He's locked under my control for like 8. What do i have to add??".

If they wanted to move Drai, it would be for the player that Chiarelli makes the team better now and in the future. Not for who he can control longer. I'm still struggling with why you cant grasp that. It's like you want your entire team to be on ELCs or something. Like i said earlier, what position does 'team control' play on the ice? is he elite at it?

 

[Habs Halifax]

If the Oilers are trying to get a RHD to put them over the top, and they are interested in moving Drai to do it (they arent, as has been clearly expressed), the contract status of Drai means very little to them in the grand scheme of things.

It becomes part of the negotiation, sure. But Chiarelli isnt going to go to Bergevin and say "Well, i only got Drai for 4 more years. But that Sergachev guy? He's locked under my control for like 8. What do i have to add??".

If they wanted to move Drai, it would be for the player that Chiarelli makes the team better now and in the future. Not for who he can control longer. I'm still struggling with why you cant grasp that. It's like you want your entire team to be on ELCs or something. Like i said earlier, what position does 'team control' play on the ice? is he elite at it?

This is why I don't take what your saying seriously. Do you ever want to search hard to argue for the sake of arguing. The twisting logic your bringing up is very childish. Only 4 year of Drai eh? His contract value and RFA status means nothing in the grand scheme of things eh? That's BS and you know it!

 

[Kuudere]

I may be a die hard Habs fan but I am watching out for the Oilers because I want them to succeed. I also cheer for all Canadian teams so where are my motives? To make both the Habs and Oilers better. Criticize me if you wish but all the stuff I have said is for both teams interest.

I challenge Oilers fan to seriously think what you need on the back end and how your going to acquire the Subban/Doughty/Karlsson type when McDavid is still only 19. Faulk is not that elite but very good offensively... but you need more in that trade to make up for only 3 years of contract then UFA.

And count how many of those types are actually in the NHL. About as many fingers you have on one hand. The chances of Sergachev being that type of player is next to 0. The reason the Oilers would trade for Faulk is because they should be trying for a big cup run next year before they have to pay McDavid >9 mil a year and before this team potentially enters salary cap hell.

The Oilers aren't waiting for potential anymore, they've done that for almost 7 years now and look where that has gone. If the Oilers are serious about winning, then they should be getting the best return that helps them right now than potential down the road.

 

[Viqsi]

It matters because of comparing contracts and what control the team has. But you don't acknowledge this so yeah it don't matter. lol

It's going unacknowledged because it's not relevant when you're comparing an active high-level NHL asset to a just-drafted non-elite prospect who is not showing any signs of taking over in juniors.

Faulk is. Sergachev is not. Faulk will be; Sergachev might be. Against that, all this "contract control" nonsense is unimportant noise. Having longer control of a player is meaningless if he turns out to not be what you need.

* * *​

I may be a die hard Habs fan but I am watching out for the Oilers because I want them to succeed. I also cheer for all Canadian teams so where are my motives? To make both the Habs and Oilers better. Criticize me if you wish but all the stuff I have said is for both teams interest.

"It's okay guys; I'm definitely a Habs homer... but in the end, I'm really a homer for all Canadian teams."

You're not getting opposition because folks assume you're trying to rip off the Oilers and just don't know better. You're getting opposition because you're pushing a proposal that's bad for the Oilers and acting like any other approach is anethema.

I challenge Oilers fan to seriously think what you need on the back end and how your going to acquire the Subban/Doughty/Karlsson type when McDavid is still only 19.

You say this as though this has ever been offered or ever will be.

Here's a thought - why not "take the risk" that someone like Faulk or Parayko could actually reach, if not exactly that status, at least something good enough to make the Oilers competitive? They're already top-pairing guys so at absolute worst the Oilers' defense will be massively improved. And if they take that extra step, so much the better!

Or they can trade their guy for yet another prospect and end up with next to nothing.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's going unacknowledged because it's not relevant when you're comparing an active high-level NHL asset to a just-drafted non-elite prospect who is not showing any signs of taking over in juniors.

Faulk is. Sergachev is not. Faulk will be; Sergachev might be. Against that, all this "contract control" nonsense is unimportant noise. Having longer control of a player is meaningless if he turns out to not be what you need.

* * *​

"It's okay guys; I'm definitely a Habs homer... but in the end, I'm really a homer for all Canadian teams."

You're not getting opposition because folks assume you're trying to rip off the Oilers and just don't know better. You're getting opposition because you're pushing a proposal that's bad for the Oilers and acting like any other approach is anethema.



You say this as though this has ever been offered or ever will be.

Here's a thought - why not "take the risk" that someone like Faulk or Parayko could actually reach, if not exactly that status, at least something good enough to make the Oilers competitive? They're already top-pairing guys so at absolute worst the Oilers' defense will be massively improved. And if they take that extra step, so much the better!

Or they can trade their guy for yet another prospect and end up with next to nothing.

Here is a thought... Try saying something new that hasn't already been said so were not spinning around in circles.