Proposal: Leafs Trades to Fix Defensive Woes

[beowulf]

Seabrooke and Weber are good dman getting older and worse on very expensive contracts they aren’t worth much especially not a young elite winger in Nylander

Ya ok...but hey keep getting into the playoffs and dumped in the first round because the team can score but can't keep the puck out. Weber would stabilize the Leafs from the first game he played.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

So ... they started the current rebuild four years ago then.

Yes.

 

[Liferleafer]

Matthews (21 in september)
Nylander (22 in a week)
Marner (21 in a week)
Kapanen (22 this summer)

vs

Pastrnak (22 next month)
DeBrusk (22 next season)
Carlo (22 next season)
McAvoy (21 next season)

Sure, we can say 6th best team, but you just lost in the first round for the second year in a row.

Sure, we can say that it was against a really good team that is in a "win now" mode, but are the Leafs far off?

JVR ends up being a rental, he's gone in the summer
Bozak ends up being a rental, he's gone in the summer
Komarov ends up being a rental, he's MOST LIKELY gone in the summer
Plekanec is a rental, he's gone in the summer (was actually the best defensive player for Toronto, ironically)

The Leafs are going to lose solid depth scoring in JVR/Bozak, and while their stars are entering their prime now, none of Marner/Nylander/Matthews are going to get so much better that they can compensate for losing JVR and Bozak. Nylander is about to get a pay increase that makes him worth almost those two players combined.

The following season? Matthews is getting 12m, and Marner is easily getting 8 or 9. You probably lose Gardiner that season, and your only solid defensive prospect is Lilly, who was good but not GREAT in the AHL this season (17 points in 44 games). Lilly will be 21 that season, and he could very likely be your 2RD, but he is not your franchise defenseman, especially not at 21.




Glad to know you're an idiot, and established that within the first 7 words of your post so.



1. Liljegren will not be better than Weber within the next 4 years unless Weber quite literally falls apart as a hockey player. He will be similar to Chara or Markov, and in the same boat as Suter and Keith --- they will all be elite until they at 38 or 39, and still be SOLID top pairing/elite 2nd pairing players right up until their bodies fail them. Weber's shot, his size, his hockey sense, and his "strengths" won't really go anywhere --- he was never a great skater, he is a stay at home guy, which gives him a lot more mileage.

2. UFA next summer? You need to extend Matthews and Marner that season, and lets look at the right handed D that will be available in the 2019 off-season (assuming they don't get resigned)

Doughty - You can't afford his 12m contract without moving one of Nylander/Marner
Karlsson - See above
OEL - Left handed, but see above.
Tyler Myers - He is making 5.5m, and likely will get a 5 x 7 or 7 x 5 deal because he will be 30, and is a solid #2. Could you afford him? Sure, but he's a discount Weber to begin with.
Orpik - Will be 40.
Bouwmeester - Left handed
Edler - Left Handed
Methot - Left Handed
McDonagh - Left Handed, cannot afford.
Stralman - Not a #1 guy, barely a #2 guy.
Ellis - He is not leaving Nashville, but if he hits open market, he is getting 10-12m.

See where I'm going with this? I'm sure that in theory, it would be great to add a solid player for free! But it doesn't work that way; there is this thing called the cap, and unfortunately, Toronto is going to struggle to fit under it in a few years.



Here is where Leafs fans are very very delusional. The Leafs "contention" window is going to be however long they have Marner, Matthews and Nylander, so long as they can put together solid depth. The problem with the Leafs is that their ELC's are all going to run out in two years, they only have one notable prospect left in the pipeline and that's Lilly. Rasanen and Timashov could pan out, but neither will be "WOW" players.

However, the teams BEST time to compete, is while you have all your ELCs. The next two years are going to be the "best" time to compete for Toronto. After that, draft picks become more valuable, and the team will need to go back to developing talent to help fill their roster out. Weber perfectly fits into this core because his veteran presence bolsters their ability to compete for the next 3-4 years at least, and he would be a massive mentor to the younger players, especially Rasanen and Liljegren who Leafs fans seem to think are the future of their blue line.

If Weber was to be put on the market (and I don't think he is, because Bergevin is delusional enough to think that the Habs current roster is a contending roster) Toronto would be so far up Montreal's ass trying to get Weber it would be ridiculous. The price would be Nylander or Marner, and to be honest, I don't think the difference between the two is that large in terms of market value; just boils down to the personal perspective of fans, or the organizations.

Weber today is more valuable than either player, but obviously age/contract plays a huge role in it. Nylander will get Weber money, and what do the Leafs really need more right now --- a soft winger, or strong big bodied 1D to play with Rielly? Nylander addresses a need for Montreal because they are weak on the right wing, and they desperately need scoring.

Unlike Liljegren, Mete and Juulsen have proven unequivocally they will be at the very least 2nd pair D-Men in the NHL. With tons of cap space to chase a player like Carlson, and the rumor that Voynov wants to play for the Habs, Weber is ultimately expendable.

I didn't read all of that....it was to long. I will address the Leafs/Boston comparison....the issue with that is the young guys you listed for Toronto are essentially our core....the young guys you listed for Boston are right now sheltered by guys like Bergeron/Rat/Chara etc. They are much much deeper.

 

[Liferleafer]

Ya ok...but hey keep getting into the playoffs and dumped in the first round because the team can score but can't keep the puck out. Weber would stabilize the Leafs from the first game he played.

Can we forget this Weber stuff?

 

[beowulf]

Can we forget this Weber stuff?

Agreed. He will not be traded to the Leafs but to say he would not make them a better team is a joke.

 

[Liferleafer]

Agreed. He will not be traded to the Leafs but to say he would not make them a better team is a joke.

I will withhold judgement until we see how his ankle heals.

 

[kihei]

If the OP ever becomes a general manager for a team in the NHL, I sure as hell hope that it is not Toronto.

 

[4thline]

Spurgeon + Coyle for Nylander and a 2nd.

Spurgeon + Nino+3rd for Nylander+ Gardiner

 

[Spirit of 67]

Lol...got as far as Nylander for Weber and gave up....

I saw Nylander for Weber and burried and ax into the monitor.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I don't understand all this hate for Nylander. And why would any team trade for 7.8m Weber. Even in free agency he can spend 7.8m better than Weber.
If the Leaf can't upgrade defence this summer, there are likely a lot more better options next summer. This summer if Bozak departs, still need a centre replacement.

 

[Habs10025]

Montreal and Toronto won't be involved in any trade involving Shea Weber .

Trade for Drew Doughty # 1 D

 

[Nervousbreakdown]

I kind of had a mini stroke when that guy said Ellis would be getting 10-12 million if he went to free agency.

 

[The Podium]

Matthews (21 in september)
Nylander (22 in a week)
Marner (21 in a week)
Kapanen (22 this summer)

vs

Pastrnak (22 next month)
DeBrusk (22 next season)
Carlo (22 next season)
McAvoy (21 next season)

Sure, we can say 6th best team, but you just lost in the first round for the second year in a row.

Sure, we can say that it was against a really good team that is in a "win now" mode, but are the Leafs far off?

JVR ends up being a rental, he's gone in the summer
Bozak ends up being a rental, he's gone in the summer
Komarov ends up being a rental, he's MOST LIKELY gone in the summer
Plekanec is a rental, he's gone in the summer (was actually the best defensive player for Toronto, ironically)

The Leafs are going to lose solid depth scoring in JVR/Bozak, and while their stars are entering their prime now, none of Marner/Nylander/Matthews are going to get so much better that they can compensate for losing JVR and Bozak. Nylander is about to get a pay increase that makes him worth almost those two players combined.

The following season? Matthews is getting 12m, and Marner is easily getting 8 or 9. You probably lose Gardiner that season, and your only solid defensive prospect is Lilly, who was good but not GREAT in the AHL this season (17 points in 44 games). Lilly will be 21 that season, and he could very likely be your 2RD, but he is not your franchise defenseman, especially not at 21.




Glad to know you're an idiot, and established that within the first 7 words of your post so.



1. Liljegren will not be better than Weber within the next 4 years unless Weber quite literally falls apart as a hockey player. He will be similar to Chara or Markov, and in the same boat as Suter and Keith --- they will all be elite until they at 38 or 39, and still be SOLID top pairing/elite 2nd pairing players right up until their bodies fail them. Weber's shot, his size, his hockey sense, and his "strengths" won't really go anywhere --- he was never a great skater, he is a stay at home guy, which gives him a lot more mileage.

2. UFA next summer? You need to extend Matthews and Marner that season, and lets look at the right handed D that will be available in the 2019 off-season (assuming they don't get resigned)

Doughty - You can't afford his 12m contract without moving one of Nylander/Marner
Karlsson - See above
OEL - Left handed, but see above.
Tyler Myers - He is making 5.5m, and likely will get a 5 x 7 or 7 x 5 deal because he will be 30, and is a solid #2. Could you afford him? Sure, but he's a discount Weber to begin with.
Orpik - Will be 40.
Bouwmeester - Left handed
Edler - Left Handed
Methot - Left Handed
McDonagh - Left Handed, cannot afford.
Stralman - Not a #1 guy, barely a #2 guy.
Ellis - He is not leaving Nashville, but if he hits open market, he is getting 10-12m.

See where I'm going with this? I'm sure that in theory, it would be great to add a solid player for free! But it doesn't work that way; there is this thing called the cap, and unfortunately, Toronto is going to struggle to fit under it in a few years.



Here is where Leafs fans are very very delusional. The Leafs "contention" window is going to be however long they have Marner, Matthews and Nylander, so long as they can put together solid depth. The problem with the Leafs is that their ELC's are all going to run out in two years, they only have one notable prospect left in the pipeline and that's Lilly. Rasanen and Timashov could pan out, but neither will be "WOW" players.

However, the teams BEST time to compete, is while you have all your ELCs. The next two years are going to be the "best" time to compete for Toronto. After that, draft picks become more valuable, and the team will need to go back to developing talent to help fill their roster out. Weber perfectly fits into this core because his veteran presence bolsters their ability to compete for the next 3-4 years at least, and he would be a massive mentor to the younger players, especially Rasanen and Liljegren who Leafs fans seem to think are the future of their blue line.

If Weber was to be put on the market (and I don't think he is, because Bergevin is delusional enough to think that the Habs current roster is a contending roster) Toronto would be so far up Montreal's ass trying to get Weber it would be ridiculous. The price would be Nylander or Marner, and to be honest, I don't think the difference between the two is that large in terms of market value; just boils down to the personal perspective of fans, or the organizations.

Weber today is more valuable than either player, but obviously age/contract plays a huge role in it. Nylander will get Weber money, and what do the Leafs really need more right now --- a soft winger, or strong big bodied 1D to play with Rielly? Nylander addresses a need for Montreal because they are weak on the right wing, and they desperately need scoring.

Unlike Liljegren, Mete and Juulsen have proven unequivocally they will be at the very least 2nd pair D-Men in the NHL. With tons of cap space to chase a player like Carlson, and the rumor that Voynov wants to play for the Habs, Weber is ultimately expendable.

At the end of the day, all the players the Leafs are losing are for the most part the players that didnt show up in the playoffs, and the players that didnt show up for large stretches of the season. I'm fine they are walking, at this point it is addition by subtraction. I rather have more skilled blue collar guys in the lineup like Kapanen and Johnsson over soft, passive, uninterested players like Bozak, JVR and Komarov.

If anything, in addition to D the Leafs should be targeting more vets like Marleau. Guys who have experience in this league, and can lead this team to take the next step. Ideally a Joe Thornton as a C stop gap but I dont think he leaves SJ.

 

[cgf]

Can’t imagine Montreal gets that much to dump weber

 

[colchar]

This is going to be a lot faster written than my previous post, as my computer crashed 20s before posting it ... :[

Nylander
for
Weber, Toronto's 2018 2nd, Montreal's 2019 2nd, Michael McCarron.

Kadri, Kapanen, Liljegren and Toronto's 2019 2nd
for
Faulk, Pesce and Aho.

Zaitsev
for
Athanasiou, Islander's 2019 2nd.

Toronto's 2019 1st, Montreal's 2019 2nd
for
Zuccarello

Resign Komarov and Bozak.

Aho/Matthews/Marner
Hyman/Bozak/Zucc
Marleau/Athanasiou/Brown
Komarov/Leivo/McCarron

Rielly/Weber
Gardiner/Faulk
Pesce/Hainsey

For complete transparency, I am open to critique/conversation for all of the trades except the Montreal one. People on these boards criminally undervalue Weber due to his "atrocious contract" when in reality the Leafs would absolutely take him for the right price considering he fills such a needed role for the team. Weber has a LOT higher value than people give him credit for

The Leafs end up getting a lot better on the right side, and the addition of Pesce gives them a natural replacement for Gardiner. Aho serves to ultimately replace the loss of Nylander, and Marner could replace Bozak if there was a solid 2RW that the Leafs could bring in via trade.

Their offensive group definitely gets weaker short term, but they get cap flexibility around Zucc, Marleau, Komarov, Bozak and Gardiner's deals while ultimately retaining a very solid young core and getting infinitely better defensively.

The primary goal for any franchise is to win a Stanley Cup, at any cost --- and I am of the belief that this roster with the addition of a Top 6 RW at the Trade Deadline could contend for a cup.

 

[Quinnisinoverhishead]

I think we can all agree that the Leafs could have used Ryan McDonagh. I still remember at the trade deadline, when all the leaf fans said no chance, we don't need him. Ya... they did. They desperately needed him.

 

[Liferleafer]

I think we can all agree that the Leafs could have used Ryan McDonagh. I still remember at the trade deadline, when all the leaf fans said no chance, we don't need him. Ya... they did. They desperately needed him.

Lots of us said we could use him.....just not for the insane prices Rangers fans were tossing out.

 

[Born and Raised]

Lots of us said we could use him.....just not for the insane prices Rangers fans were tossing out.

For one insane prices fans ask dont ever come to fruition, and two Toronto isnt getting a McDonagh calibur defenseman without moving major pieces and they dont currently have one in the system so unless Toronto is cool with a solid top 4 without a true #1 then youll have to give to get.

Some teams can win without a #1

 

[Liferleafer]

For one insane prices fans ask dont ever come to fruition, and two Toronto isnt getting a McDonagh calibur defenseman without moving major pieces and they dont currently have one in the system so unless Toronto is cool with a solid top 4 without a true #1 then youll have to give to get.

Some teams can win without a #1

You want proof that what you said is wrong? Tampa just got McDonagh without giving up anything close to a major piece. So why should Toronto have to pay a Nylander level player?

 

[Born and Raised]

You want proof that what you said is wrong? Tampa just got McDonagh without giving up anything close to a major piece.

It was At the trade deadline, Rangers lost value because they openly shopped him, it was last second value, and they sill gave up a huge package.

Good luck finding another McDonagh for multiple pieces deal - Toronto had their chance and blew it. Now itll cost one of Nylander or Marner

 

[Liferleafer]

It was At the trade deadline, Rangers lost value because they openly shopped him, it was last second value, and they sill gave up a huge package.

Good luck finding another McDonagh for multiple pieces deal - Toronto had their chance and blew it. Now itll cost one of Nylander or Marner

Lol....late 1st....late 2nd...and 2 prospects that weren't in their top 3? And they got Miller as well....that's not huge. I don't know what the Leafs were offering, but some folks were saying the Rangers were demanding Nylander...or 1st+Liljegren+ they ended up settling for much....much less. I think they could have gotten better from TO if they would have been OK with a futures deal like the ended up with.

And no, the Leafs won't be trading Marner....and Nylander depends on whether this fantasy some folks have about signing Tavares happens. (I personally have zero interest in signing Tavares)

 

[boredmale]

Fan of neither team but how about Letang for Gardiner and 1st?

 

[Born and Raised]

Lol....late 1st....late 2nd...and 2 prospects that weren't in their top 3? And they got Miller as well....that's not huge. I don't know what the Leafs were offering, but some folks were saying the Rangers were demanding Nylander...or 1st+Liljegren+ they ended up settling for much....much less. I think they could have gotten better from TO if they would have been OK with a futures deal like the ended up with.

The Leafs are stupid not to make such a deal or offer more to get it done. They have so many young guys on ELCs or bridge contracts and are wasting those cost controlled years so they can save some prospects that likely never touch the big leagues with a full roster?

Its unwise and will cost them a larger piece the longer they wait.

 

[Liferleafer]

The Leafs are stupid not to make such a deal or offer more to get it done. They have so many young guys on ELCs or bridge contracts and are wasting those cost controlled years so they can save some prospects that likely never touch the big leagues with a full roster?

Its unwise and will cost them a larger piece the longer they wait.

What deal? Nylander?? Or the 1st+Liljegren+? Because both of those are an overpayment for 1.3 years of an older LHD. At the time i was good with our 1st+2nd+prospect (not Liljegren level).....

 

[howkie]

2008 5th Overall pick
2009 7th Overall pick
2010 2nd Overall pick *traded
2011 8th? Overall pick *traded
2012 5th Overall pick
2014 8th Overall pick
2015 4th Overall pick
2016 1st Overall pick

"We are in year 2 of our rebuild"

Its painfully obvious you need defensive help. You would have won the series if you had 1 or 2 better defenseman. Yeah it sucks giving up firsts but good D are expensive and rightfully so. Jake Gardiner is just awful. Its time to move on. Bite the bullet and pay up for someone good that can help you. If not Tanev than someone else, but to take the next step you need to do it.

I love how Leaf fans smack other teams for their sucking and failed rebuilds while they have had loads of top-10 picks the last decade, but we should just ignore that, cuz of ”reasons”...