TSN: Leafs in on Vatanen

[tomd]

You also have to consider whose available and how realistic it is you can acquire that player. Shattenkirk is likely in NYR or LV. Barrie is similar type player as Vatanen, but is more forward than D, and a huge liability in his own end. Tanev is said to not be available, so whoever wants to acquire him is going to pay not being available prices. Reason I think this topic is so Ducks Leaf heavy is our strong trade history with each other. Even though Vatanen might not be a perfect fit from a fan's perspective, he becomes one of your best Dmen and contributor on both the PK and PP. Vatanen has also stepped up as a top pairing player for us in the past and has faired well. He's a right shot, offensive Dman, who plays well defensively. Despite being small, he throws his weight around very well. I understand you might not be a fan of his game, but Lou and Babcock are definitely doing their homework for someone who is less valuable than a guy with 9 NHL games experience. Lou also did feel it was necessary to get Bab's feedback when the price of a goalie was a 1st and 2nd. If cost of Vatanen was Kapanen, he'd already be in Toronto. We definitely may trade with another team, but Bab and Lou's presence at multiple Duck's games should be enough to understand the price of Vatanen is fairly significant and they are contemplating making it. If not, they would have never showed up for that 2nd game.

With respect, there is no need to try to sell Vatanen to another fan base. The fact that Leafs management was there to (more than likely) watch him is all you need to know. Personally, I think the Ducks can do better than whatever it is that the Leafs are offering.

 

[Ciao]

Fowler being better than him doesn't do a thing to change Vatanen's worth to other teams.

Keeping Manson over Vatanen is a matter of balance/fit, not impact. Vatanen had a fair bit more responsibility than Manson, but we have young Dmen who project to be able to replace Vatanen's skillset, and absolutely​ nothing like Manson in the system.

But all of that is moot, because it has nothing to do with Vatanen's value to other teams.

Vatanen is more easily replaced on the Leafs as well.

I think the Ducks should go after the Drouin deal instead. The Leafs can't touch that one.

 

[dracom]

If Vatanen was so good defensively at 5v5, PP and PK, he wouldn't be the one Anaheim was looking to move - they'd move Manson or Fowler instead.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=500&teamid=0&type=shots&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC
Shattenkirk is literally a top 10 guy in supressing shots, or top 20 relative to team. I'm very happy to put him out late in the game.

But the point was - there are many options out there, and in my opinion, Vatanen falls into the 'get only if cheap'

Or maybe it's because the other two you mention are better or are cheaper and help our other two best defensemen play. Manson is the physical D that many teams want, but he's cheap and helps Fowler/Lindholm play better so we're not moving him. And Fowler is just our best defensemen so no reason to move him. So that leave Vats. Simple concept.

 

[thewave]

I hope Vatanen makes it to Vegas for auction personally. Not sure why anyone would want to do ANA a favour.

 

[dracom]

I hope Vatanen makes it to Vegas for auction personally. Not sure why anyone would want to do ANA a favour.

Because the price to get Vats from us would be cheaper than from Vegas. And because teams want to upgrade their D. No one is doing us a favor by upgrading their D.

 

[Ciao]

Or maybe it's because the other two you mention are better or are cheaper and help our other two best defensemen play. Manson is the physical D that many teams want, but he's cheap and helps Fowler/Lindholm play better so we're not moving him. And Fowler is just our best defensemen so no reason to move him. So that leave Vats. Simple concept.

Unless you protect four defencemen, as some teams with four really high quality defencemen might do.

Ducks aren't in that group.

 

[dracom]

Unless you protect four defencemen, as some teams with four really high quality defencemen might do.

Ducks aren't in that group.

We aren't protecting for 4 D. Bieksa waives or gets bought out. Then protect Fowler, Lindholm, Manson, and trade Vats. Not sure why people just don't understand this already.

 

[thefish]

Nice, looking at web pages rather than watching games. My buddy is a St Louis fan and I watch plenty of their games. You Could see what a disaster Shattenkirk was with Caps. You can throw 6.5 at him since the web page tells you too, but Winnik was supposedly an elite player according to those same pages, so maybe you should give him that type of money too.

Webpages can be pretty useful, they tell you what actually happened if you don't have time to watch all 82 games for all 30 teams.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I get that. I'm just saying he can't be an amazing defender that you send out at the end of games to close teams out AND a top PP QB AND a guy who anchors a PK. If he's that guy, he's one of the 5 best d-men in the entire league. That's a description of Karlsson or Doughty.

I think Vatanen is what he accuses Shattenkirk of being - a great PP guy who isn't great 5v5 unless he has an excellent partner. Leafs need a flip of that - great at 5v5 and PP doesn't really matter

He's great on the PP, great on the PK and a good enough all-around top 4 Dman to play big minutes deep into the playoffs for one of the best d-cores in the league. He isn't as good as Fowler, he doesn't have Lindholm's massive upside, but Vatanen is a bonafide top 4 RHD who can really help a lot of teams. No one is saying he's elite, if he was, he wouldn't be available.

 

[darkwingduck]

If Toronto does happen to trade for Vatanen, when he's killing it in the East (which many duck fans assume his style of play is more suited for) I don't want to see posts on the main boards on how badly Toronto fleeced Anaheim. It appears like 90% of Toronto fans don't want him in the first place.

 

[thefish]

Or maybe it's because the other two you mention are better or are cheaper and help our other two best defensemen play. Manson is the physical D that many teams want, but he's cheap and helps Fowler/Lindholm play better so we're not moving him. And Fowler is just our best defensemen so no reason to move him. So that leave Vats. Simple concept.

Yes, and if you kept reading, you'd see I'd understand that and explained further. If Vatanen was as good as he's being made out to be in that post I replied to, he'd be better than Fowler/Lindholm

And Lindholm is your best defenceman by a mile.

 

[thewave]

Because the price to get Vats from us would be cheaper than from Vegas. And because teams want to upgrade their D. No one is doing us a favor by upgrading their D.

The way you guys are talking that could be debatable. Factor in the fact that teams could negotiate around their selection to offset costs. We dont know if teams will just say, not thanks, youre a rival and strong team, rather you cut down to size some.

 

[Ciao]

I hope Vatanen makes it to Vegas for auction personally. Not sure why anyone would want to do ANA a favour.

I don't mind if they trade him elsewhere -- just not here at the cost of Kapanen and/or a first, with Carrick as collateral damage.

Someone said I'm crazy to think Carrick might eventually be as good or better than Vatanen. I don't think so. Anton Stralman is among the string of young defencemen the Leafs gave up on much too early. Now someone else says Tampa is not desperate for D because they have Hedman and Stralman.

We're sure not talking about a Hedman like player here, but Vatanen, Carrick, Stralman and many others aren't miles apart. The improvement from one to the other is debatable, and marginal at best given the different points in their careers.

I'm not at all sold that adding Vatanen minus the asets spent to acquire him, minus Carrick is a net plus for the Leafs.

I don't know exactly why the Ducks don't pursue greener pastures.

 

[Mats13]

If Toronto does happen to trade for Vatanen, when he's killing it in the East (which many duck fans assume his style of play is more suited for) I don't want to see posts on the main boards on how badly Toronto fleeced Anaheim. It appears like 90% of Toronto fans don't want him in the first place.

Not even remotely true. A lot of us want him. We're just a huge fan add and have a lot of different opinions. Really not fair to act like we're all the same.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I don't know exactly why the Ducks don't pursue greener pastures.

I don't exactly know why people keep implying that Toronto is the only team the Ducks are talking to, when every reputable source has indicated that there is a broad market for this player.

 

[Ciao]

If Toronto does happen to trade for Vatanen, when he's killing it in the East (which many duck fans assume his style of play is more suited for) I don't want to see posts on the main boards on how badly Toronto fleeced Anaheim. It appears like 90% of Toronto fans don't want him in the first place.

Oh, that would just be due to Babcock's great coaching and the Leafs system making him a better player. Don't you know? We have that covered, just in case!

 

[darkwingduck]

Not even remotely true. A lot of us want him. We're just a huge fan add and have a lot of different opinions. Really not fair to act like we're all the same.

I apologize, Toronto fans are not a monolith. But like Andersen, Anaheim fans really like what Sami Vatanen brings. Personally, his demeanor and flashes of skill occasionally are worth the price of admission at certain games.

I don't like being an "I told you so person." Just saying if Toronto does acquire Vatanen, I think any opponents will quickly change their tune especially with how well he'd work with Toronto forwards' speed.

 

[Ciao]

I don't exactly know why people keep implying that Toronto is the only team the Ducks are talking to, when every reputable source has indicated that there is a broad market for this player.

Tampa looks very enticing.

I'd rather the Ducks deal with them.

Drouin would look very good in a Ducks uniform

 

[Jeypic]

Wait, what? I'm a leaf fan and am having trouble with this. I get that vats is going through recovery and his shot might get affected, but someone else can overpay for shattenkirk. He's overhyped and not going to be worth the 6m+ that it's been speculated he would look for. That said, after shatts signs in jersey Who are the leafs options... alzner? Alzner is, again, not a guy I would put big money out for. Trouba, savard, johnson... all on teams with similar needs. The only other "realistic" target might be hjalmerrson. He's going to likely cost more than vatanen. I would barf if the leafs signed shattenkirk.

I don't think shattenkirk is a good fit either.. we need a more defensive d man. Or at least a physical one

Now if you want to actually offer us something that fits our needs, since it's Leafs fans always asking, you can make an offer that is a better option for us.

If brown can't get it done in a 1 for 1 deal then we don't have a better option for you unfortunately. I don't even know if I like that deal. We would like to help u out but we got to move our trade chips.. if we can't use our trade chips or get a slight expansion draft discount (1 for 1 with brown) we might as well target a d man we really want. Dumba, trouba or tanev are better fits. Even shattenkirk would save us losing assets.

Kapanen would expose carrick and create two holes for us. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[leaflover]

If Toronto does happen to trade for Vatanen, when he's killing it in the East (which many duck fans assume his style of play is more suited for) I don't want to see posts on the main boards on how badly Toronto fleeced Anaheim. It appears like 90% of Toronto fans don't want him in the first place.

I wouldn't mind if they traded for Vatanen but they better be planning on filling the actual hole as well.

 

[dracom]

Yes, and if you kept reading, you'd see I'd understand that and explained further. If Vatanen was as good as he's being made out to be in that post I replied to, he'd be better than Fowler/Lindholm

And Lindholm is your best defenceman by a mile.

No one has been making it seem like Vats is better than Fowler/Lindholm. You're getting confused by people saying he's more than just some offensive D who can't play D and assume we think he's better than our two best Ds. Just because he's not as good as them, doesn't mean he's not good.

Also, Fowler is the better all around D. Lindholm is the better defensive D. Lindholm does have the most potential by far though.

 

[dracom]

I don't think shattenkirk is a good fit either.. we need a more defensive d man. Or at least a physical one

If brown can't get it done in a 1 for 1 deal then we don't have a better option for you unfortunately. I don't even know if I like that deal. We would like to help u out but we got to move our trade chips.. if we can't use our trade chips or get a slight expansion draft discount (1 for 1 with brown) we might as well target a d man we really want. Dumba, trouba or tanev are better fits. Even shattenkirk would save us losing assets.

Kapanen would expose carrick and create two holes for us. Just doesn't make sense.

You crack me up. First you say Shattenkirk isn't a good fit, then say you would rather go after him instead of Vats. Shatternkirk is gonna screw with your cap much worse than Vats will. If you rather have that, then I guess you can, not sure why you would really want to.

Dumba will be the cheapest to get of the three D you mentioned and that's only because of the ED. But I say again, you're not going to get a D like that without offering up more than just Kapenen or Brown. And if you want to just wait and deal with Vegas, expect to pay more because there no pressure from the ED to lower the price.

 

[Crosbysux]

I hope Vatanen makes it to Vegas for auction personally. Not sure why anyone would want to do ANA a favour.

Ducks would never let him go to expansion. No team is doing Anaheim a favor, they're trying to make their club better

 

[Jeypic]

You crack me up. First you say Shattenkirk isn't a good fit, then say you would rather go after him instead of Vats. Shatternkirk is gonna screw with your cap much worse than Vats will. If you rather have that, then I guess you can, not sure why you would really want to.

Dumba will be the cheapest to get of the three D you mentioned and that's only because of the ED. But I say again, you're not going to get a D like that without offering up more than just Kapenen or Brown. And if you want to just wait and deal with Vegas, expect to pay more because there no pressure from the ED to lower the price.

Shattenkirk won't cost us kapanen and carrick. He wouldn't start screwing with our cap either until vats tried too.. in 3 years.

If the price is jvr you got a deal.. we may add
If the price is brown you might have a deal
If the price is kapanen or our first we will talk to Minnesota instead.
If that doesn't work we will work throw those offers to Vegas
If that doesn't work we'll look at free agents.

Offseason is still long.. you sound like your worried about a deadline or something

 

[smitty10]

Really hope the Leafs are in on him. Think he could be a great fit in Toronto.