TSN: Leafs in on Vatanen

[Deadly Dogma]

I apologize, Toronto fans are not a monolith. But like Andersen, Anaheim fans really like what Sami Vatanen brings. Personally, his demeanor and flashes of skill occasionally are worth the price of admission at certain games.

I don't like being an "I told you so person." Just saying if Toronto does acquire Vatanen, I think any opponents will quickly change their tune especially with how well he'd work with Toronto forwards' speed.

Its not that I do not want Vats. We will be better with Vats than without. Its that I personally feel that Tanev, Brodin, Hjammer, Myers all fit better than Vats.

Yes for the most part a top 4 of Rielly-Zaits, Gardiner-Vats will be more than mobile enough but its when they run into a heavy aggressive forechecking team that their size will hamper them.

How fast is Vats? How good is he at skating the puck out under pressure? Whats his board battle recovery rate like?

 

[darkwingduck]

Vats I believe has decent speed. Really good at navigating traffic and joining rushes. His initial passes aren't always great. With the Stoner/Vatanen pair, teams would apply pressure to Vatanen and force Stoner to carry the puck which led to turnovers and being helmed in, so he needs a pair who is at least competent at puck handling.

He's physical, but he is small. So players can push him off the puck, but he's aggressive enough to make up for it.

Think Andersen was quoted as saying he liked Vatanen on the PK, because he was small enough to look over and track the puck, but physical enough to help clear out the crease.

Has a powerful shot, but had the shoulder injury which affected him this postseason.

 

[dracom]

Shattenkirk won't cost us kapanen and carrick. He wouldn't start screwing with our cap either until vats tried too.. in 3 years.

If the price is jvr you got a deal.. we may add
If the price is brown you might have a deal
If the price is kapanen or our first we will talk to Minnesota instead.
If that doesn't work we will work throw those offers to Vegas
If that doesn't work we'll look at free agents.

Offseason is still long.. you sound like your worried about a deadline or something

I'm not sure what the bolded even means...

JVR isn't returning a top 4 RHD when he's a UFA next season.
Brown, and Kapanen are not enough to return a top 4 RHD by themselves.

Good luck getting a D from Minnesota for what you're offering us.

Again, going though Vegas means you're going to have to offer more. They could use a top 4 RHD so why would they trade one away, unless for an overpayment. Sorry, but JVR isn't that.

Free agents can also sign with any other team they want.

The benefit with trading for Vats is you will get him for a cheaper price than under normal circumstances due to the expansion draft. But, that lower price isn't going to be as cheap as a prospect who hasn't proved anything in the NHL or a guy who had a one great rookie season. We would want a proven player with similar team control or multiple futures (think Brown/Kapanen and a 1st).

 

[Kiwi]

I'm not sure what the bolded even means...

JVR isn't returning a top 4 RHD when he's a UFA next season.
Brown, and Kapanen are not enough to return a top 4 RHD by themselves.

Good luck getting a D from Minnesota for what you're offering us.

Again, going though Vegas means you're going to have to offer more. They could use a top 4 RHD so why would they trade one away, unless for an overpayment. Sorry, but JVR isn't that.

Free agents can also sign with any other team they want.

The benefit with trading for Vats is you will get him for a cheaper price than under normal circumstances due to the expansion draft. But, that lower price isn't going to be as cheap as a prospect who hasn't proved anything in the NHL or a guy who had a one great rookie season. We would want a proven player with similar team control or multiple futures (think Brown/Kapanen and a 1st).

Brown + 1st or Kapanen +1st is pretty fair and I'd do it but if players like Drouin are on the table there's no way we can get close to touching that

 

[dracom]

Brown + 1st or Kapanen +1st is pretty fair and I'd do it but if players like Drouin are on the table there's no way we can get close to touching that

Agreed. Though honestly I don't see Drouin really being available.

 

[Jeypic]

I'm not sure what the bolded even means...

JVR isn't returning a top 4 RHD when he's a UFA next season.
Brown, and Kapanen are not enough to return a top 4 RHD by themselves.

Good luck getting a D from Minnesota for what you're offering us.

Again, going though Vegas means you're going to have to offer more. They could use a top 4 RHD so why would they trade one away, unless for an overpayment. Sorry, but JVR isn't that.

Free agents can also sign with any other team they want.

The benefit with trading for Vats is you will get him for a cheaper price than under normal circumstances due to the expansion draft. But, that lower price isn't going to be as cheap as a prospect who hasn't proved anything in the NHL or a guy who had a one great rookie season. We would want a proven player with similar team control or multiple futures (think Brown/Kapanen and a 1st).

you and Minnesota will have to discount. Kapanen is worth a first. You're asking us for 2 firsts and carrick.. who is a rhd we would have to expose. That is not a discount. That is an overpayment. He is not worth that much. If that's the lowest price for a dman we shouldn't even upgrade our d this off season.

 

[lindholmie]

didnt freidman also say it might cost the 3rd overall from dallas?

hes obviously wrong sinces hes just a hunwik clone

 

[Kiwi]

you and Minnesota will have to discount. Kapanen is worth a first. You're asking us for 2 firsts and carrick.. who is a rhd we would have to expose. That is not a discount. That is an overpayment. He is not worth that much. If that's the lowest price for a dman we shouldn't even upgrade our d this off season.

If our dealing Brown you can go 4-4-1 though
Brown + 1st would make more sense for us expansion wise

Kadri Komorov Bozak JVR
Rielly Gardiner Carrick Vatanen
Andersen

 

[dracom]

you and Minnesota will have to discount. Kapanen is worth a first. You're asking us for 2 firsts and carrick.. who is a rhd we would have to expose. That is not a discount. That is an overpayment. He is not worth that much. If that's the lowest price for a dman we shouldn't even upgrade our d this off season.

Just like Freddy wasn't worth a 1st+...

Seriously, this is nearly the same conversation we had with Leafs fans about Freddy. In the end, both teams improved; which is exactly how trades in the NHL work. It's not about screwing over the other guy, despite how much people on here want that to be true.

 

[HockeyRulez]

Not to be that guy but if Vatanen were available, don't you think like half the league would be "in on" him?

 

[Ciao]

Ducks would never let him go to expansion. No team is doing Anaheim a favor, they're trying to make their club better

Maybe the Ducks already have a deal with Vegas that keeps Vatanen with the Ducks no matter who they protect. He could still be a Duck next season.

If he lands up with the Leafs, that's fine, but I wouldn't look forward to losing Kapanen and Carrick for him.

Otherwise, I couldn't care less where he goes, if anywhere at all.

 

[Halla]

Tampa looks very enticing.

I'd rather the Ducks deal with them.

Drouin would look very good in a Ducks uniform

Drouin for Lindholm

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Just like Freddy wasn't worth a 1st+...

Seriously, this is nearly the same conversation we had with Leafs fans about Freddy. In the end, both teams improved; which is exactly how trades in the NHL work. It's not about screwing over the other guy, despite how much people on here want that to be true.

We actually needed a goalie. We don't need a PP/PK specialist, our current set up is working very well.

What does Vatanen bring at even strength that we can't get in FA for a couple mil? Or worst case scenario, get in a trade for a couple picks? Braun/Demers/Martin are better shot suppressors and will cost less.

I really do hope you get a 1st for him from someone else.

 

[dracom]

We actually needed a goalie. We don't need a PP/PK specialist, our current set up is working very well.

What does Vatanen bring at even strength that we can't get in FA for a couple mil? Or worst case scenario, get in a trade for a couple picks? Braun/Demers/Martin are better shot suppressors and will cost less.

I really do hope you get a 1st for him from someone else.

That's not what we were told countless times. You had Reimer and Bernier who, as some Leaf fans said was just as good as Freddy.

I get what you're suggesting, just saying the response from some Leafs fans sounds exactly like the Freddy stuff from last season.

As for guys like Braun/Demers/Martin they probably are better defensive players but are those players available and fit the age of the Leafs core more than Vats?

 

[Liferleafer]

That's not what we were told countless times. You had Reimer and Bernier who, as some Leaf fans said was just as good as Freddy.

I get what you're suggesting, just saying the response from some Leafs fans sounds exactly like the Freddy stuff from last season.

As for guys like Braun/Demers/Martin they probably are better defensive players but are those players available and fit the age of the Leafs core more than Vats?

Mostly it's the cost....not the player. Tell you what, if you want to talk about the Freddie deal (which i loved immediately upon happening by the way) i will pay the same for Vats...if we acquire a late 1st i will add a 2nd to it.

 

[PhoenyX]

Whoever gets Vatanen is getting a gem.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Not to be that guy but if Vatanen were available, don't you think like half the league would be "in on" him?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, because Friedman literally used that same terminology to describe the interest in Vatanen (half the league).

 

[Jeypic]

If our dealing Brown you can go 4-4-1 though
Brown + 1st would make more sense for us expansion wise

Kadri Komorov Bozak JVR
Rielly Gardiner Carrick Vatanen
Andersen

I agree brown makes way more sense then kapanen. But adding a first is expensive. Brown has gotta be worth a late first now himself as a cost controlled 20 goal rookie that pk's.
Do you really want to pay 2 firsts for an injured #4 dman to a team that will lose him for nothing if they don't make a deal?
Maybe if we gotta deal with Vegas we have to pay that much.. if it came to that I'd be considering shattenkirk though. Or dumba. Or really any cheap option. It's not worth paying a premium. We aren't in that bad of shape.

 

[Ciao]

Drouin for Lindholm

Today Friedman wrote that a Vatanen-Drouin deal makes hockey sense, if only the Ducks could afford to sign Drouin. See the other thread.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

If I am Toronto I dangle Kap+1st to Ana, Min, Isles, Van essentially the whole league and take the best RHD we can get.

Of the rumored potential available RHD my preference is
Brodin
Tanev(if healthy)
Hamonic
Vats
Myers(dark horse steal potential if he is 100%)
Dumba

Bold=offering Kap+1st non bold is offer lesser pkg

 

[The Thin White Duke]

That's not what we were told countless times. You had Reimer and Bernier who, as some Leaf fans said was just as good as Freddy.

I get what you're suggesting, just saying the response from some Leafs fans sounds exactly like the Freddy stuff from last season.

As for guys like Braun/Demers/Martin they probably are better defensive players but are those players available and fit the age of the Leafs core more than Vats?

I don't really care about age for a #4, it's a replaceable part. I'd rather not pay a premium price for someone who's strengths aren't things we lack desperately.

Andersen was a bit of a different story because he fit the team like a glove. I didn't want to pay a high price for him, I was expecting a pair of 2nds or so, but I'm glad I was proven wrong. I hadn't taken into account that he was a strong HD/PK goalie, or that his puck moving would help cover our defensive issues.

I could be wrong here too but the things Ducks fans have mentioned Vatanen has trouble with are things that the rest of our D core has trouble with. We have enough guys who can move the puck out once someone stops the cycle for them. We need that guy who can stop the cycle. A smarter, more mobile Polak basically. I just don't see what Vatanen brings that we don't already have other than his point shot (although who knows with the shoulder surgery).

 

[Kiwi]

I agree brown makes way more sense then kapanen. But adding a first is expensive. Brown has gotta be worth a late first now himself as a cost controlled 20 goal rookie that pk's.
Do you really want to pay 2 firsts for an injured #4 dman to a team that will lose him for nothing if they don't make a deal?
Maybe if we gotta deal with Vegas we have to pay that much.. if it came to that I'd be considering shattenkirk though. Or dumba. Or really any cheap option. It's not worth paying a premium. We aren't in that bad of shape.

It fixes the top 4 D for years with an age appropriate player and Kapanen can slot in for Brown on the Kadri line without much trouble

I like Brown but if you can fix the defense long term you have to do it
It's not about what we're giving up to me it's about sorting out a major weakness long term using pieces which were strong in (wingers)

Our prospect pool is pretty deep to so I'd be willing to forgo a 1st this year especially since a Vatanen type player would be a great result from pick #17 this year in fact I'd call it pretty unlikely

 

[Jeypic]

It fixes the top 4 D for years with an age appropriate player and Kapanen can slot in for Brown on the Kadri line without much trouble

I like Brown but if you can fix the defense long term you have to do it
It's not about what we're giving up to me it's about sorting out a major weakness long term using pieces which were strong in (wingers)

Our prospect pool is pretty deep to so I'd be willing to forgo a 1st this year especially since a Vatanen type player would be a great result from pick #17 this year in fact I'd call it pretty unlikely

I agree with everything except the bolded. The leafs are in a unique position to use our trade chips to acquire a dman before a team loses him to the open market.

Half the league may have called on vatanen.. but are there really even any better offers out there then jvr? Most teams are handcuffed from getting anywhere close to even value until he gets to Vegas due to who they would be forced to expose by aquiring him.

Foote at 17 could be our stay at home top 4 Rd with size, which fits our team needs more then what vatanen brings. Definately no sure thing though.

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

You crack me up. First you say Shattenkirk isn't a good fit, then say you would rather go after him instead of Vats. Shatternkirk is gonna screw with your cap much worse than Vats will. If you rather have that, then I guess you can, not sure why you would really want to.

Dumba will be the cheapest to get of the three D you mentioned and that's only because of the ED. But I say again, you're not going to get a D like that without offering up more than just Kapenen or Brown. And if you want to just wait and deal with Vegas, expect to pay more because there no pressure from the ED to lower the price.

They didn't, really. Just that shatty would be a piece that could be brought in without having to send out assets. You are bang on though that a shattenkirk contract (whatever it end up being) likely ends up with the leafs in a tighter cap situation in the future.

 

[Kiwi]

I agree with everything except the bolded. The leafs are in a unique position to use our trade chips to acquire a dman before a team loses him to the open market.

Half the league may have called on vatanen.. but are there really even any better offers out there then jvr? Most teams are handcuffed from getting anywhere close to even value until he gets to Vegas due to who they would be forced to expose by aquiring him.

Foote at 17 could be our stay at home top 4 Rd with size, which fits our team needs more then what vatanen brings. Definately no sure thing though.

All those second tier defenseman in this year's draft are dicey
I'd draft a forward before if go near Foote Hague or Brannstrom

There's a reason teams want Vatanen
He's a quality PK/PP guy who can eat big minutes against good competition
He won't score a ton but he's going to be able to take a ton of pressure off the guys like Rielly and Zaitsev while forcing Carrick to the bottom pair which helps the entire D core

I'd be willing to give up a guy like Brown with our first for that kind of benificial long term solution