TSN: Leafs in on Vatanen

[KaseMeOutside]

And yet Brown , without the benefit to having played in the league before, being used often in a shutdown roll against the opposing teams top line, playing on the PK and not getting as much PP time as Rackell still managed to put up similar numbers.
So why couldn't he produce similar numbers as Rackell at the same age?

Good luck hoping he turns into a Rakell player, nobody saw Rakells jump coming.

 

[Liferleafer]

Yeah, I'm sure Lou and Babcock came to multiple Duck playoff games as a favor to BM. Maybe it's also standard practice since coaches/GMs make a habit of attending other teams playoff games after they've been eliminated. I mean, Murray and RC have been at every Stanley Cup game so far

Well...if the rumor is true about Drouin, we are definitely out...we don't have a Drouin level player available even if the Ducks were willing to add.

 

[duckpuck]

I get that many Toronto fans don't think Vatanen is worth Kapanen or Brown.

Fine, but here's my question - if Toronto wants to upgrade its defense (which is what we're being told), how do they do that without giving up something valuable, like Kapanen or Brown? Even if its not for Vats, aren't Kapenen and Brown the most likely trade options? What else are you offering.

1. I suppose you can sign Shattenkirk - more more expensive and lots of term, that eventually creates cap issues when you need to resign your young players. If Kapanen or Brown are as good as claimed, can you keep them as well as the big 3 given the salary cap?

2. Trade JVR or Bozak? An option, but what do they bring back? Both are good players but with only one year left on their deals, what kind of d-men does they get in return? Maybe a guy with a similar deal? Is that type of deal consistent with Toronto's rebuild, or do they want a 25 year old dman with term (like Vats)? I don't think JVR/Bozak get you someone like Vats (a top 4 defensemen with a good contract for 3 more years). Kadri does but I'm assuming you want to keep him as part of your core (or at least value him more than Brown/Kapanen).

3. Wait for prospects in your pipeline? Not sure what you have - maybe that's an option. But that doesn't help you next year or probably the year after.

Bottom line - Toronto is the opposite of the Ducks. Ducks have lots of good young defenseman and Toronto has young top lelvel forwards. In a perfect world, the ducks would keep all of their defensemen but that's not an option (and likewise for Toronto with their forwards). Even if there were not an expansion draft, the ducks would have been looking to move defensemen (Vats, or if they couldn't sign him, fowler) to balance their roster and salary cap. Yes, the ducks have a more immediate need to make a move (due to expansion draft), but it boils down to trading something you value but have lots of for something you need.

Which brings me back to my original question - how does Toronto improve its D without giving up something of value (i.e., Kapanen or Brown)?

 

[Liferleafer]

I get that many Toronto fans don't think Vatanen is worth Kapanen or Brown.

Fine, but here's my question - if Toronto wants to upgrade its defense (which is what we're being told), how do they do that without giving up something valuable, Like Kapanen or Brown? Even if its not for Vats, aren't Kapenen and Brown the most likely trade options? What else are you offering.

1. I suppose you can sign Shattenkirk - more more expensive and lots of term, that eventually creates cap issues when you need to resign your young players.

2. Trade JVR or Bozak? An option, but what do they bring back? JVR is a good player but with only one year left on his deal, what kind of d-men does he get? Maybe a guy with a similar deal? Is that type of deal consistent with Toronto's rebuild, or do they want a 25 year old dman with term? I don't think JVR/Bozak get you someone like Vats (a top 4 defensemen with a good contract for 3 more years). Kadri does but I'm assuming you want to keep him as part of your core.

3. Wait for prospects in your pipeline? Not sure what you have - maybe that's an option. But that doesn't help you next year or probably the year after.

Bottom line - Toronto is the opposite of the Ducks. Ducks have lots of good young defenseman and Toronto has young top lelvel forwards. In a perfect world, the ducks would keep all of their defensemen but that's not an option (and likewise for Toronto with their forwards). Even if there were not an expansion draft, the ducks would have been looking to move defensemen (Vats, or if they couldn't sign him, fowler) to balance their roster and salary cap. Yes, the ducks have a more immediate need to make a move (due to expansion draft), but it boils down to trading something you value by have lots of for something you need.

Which brings me back to my original question - how does Toronto improve its D without giving up something of value (i.e., Kapanen or Brown)?

We are a large fanbase...as such, we haver different opinions. I, for one, am willing to trade Brown or Kap or our 1st (with possible adds) for the right D upgrade.

 

[Ciao]

We are a large fanbase...as such, we haver different opinions. I, for one, am willing to trade Brown or Kap or our 1st (with possible adds) for the right D upgrade.

Me too, but Vatanen isn't it

 

[Crosbysux]

Well...if the rumor is true about Drouin, we are definitely out...we don't have a Drouin level player available even if the Ducks were willing to add.

The same article also said Ducks might not want Drouin since they fear how much his next contract comes up. Ducks are, reportedly, looking for guy(s) on ELC or somewhat cost controlled. W/Drouin's past, there's red flags on how difficult it will be with him regardless of if he's arbitration eligible or not.

 

[Jeypic]

I get that many Toronto fans don't think Vatanen is worth Kapanen or Brown.

Fine, but here's my question - if Toronto wants to upgrade its defense (which is what we're being told), how do they do that without giving up something valuable, like Kapanen or Brown? Even if its not for Vats, aren't Kapenen and Brown the most likely trade options? What else are you offering.

1. I suppose you can sign Shattenkirk - more more expensive and lots of term, that eventually creates cap issues when you need to resign your young players. If Kapanen or Brown are as good as claimed, can you keep them as well as the big 3 given the salary cap?

2. Trade JVR or Bozak? An option, but what do they bring back? Both are good players but with only one year left on their deals, what kind of d-men does they get in return? Maybe a guy with a similar deal? Is that type of deal consistent with Toronto's rebuild, or do they want a 25 year old dman with term (like Vats)? I don't think JVR/Bozak get you someone like Vats (a top 4 defensemen with a good contract for 3 more years). Kadri does but I'm assuming you want to keep him as part of your core (or at least value him more than Brown/Kapanen).

3. Wait for prospects in your pipeline? Not sure what you have - maybe that's an option. But that doesn't help you next year or probably the year after.

Bottom line - Toronto is the opposite of the Ducks. Ducks have lots of good young defenseman and Toronto has young top lelvel forwards. In a perfect world, the ducks would keep all of their defensemen but that's not an option (and likewise for Toronto with their forwards). Even if there were not an expansion draft, the ducks would have been looking to move defensemen (Vats, or if they couldn't sign him, fowler) to balance their roster and salary cap. Yes, the ducks have a more immediate need to make a move (due to expansion draft), but it boils down to trading something you value but have lots of for something you need.

Which brings me back to my original question - how does Toronto improve its D without giving up something of value (i.e., Kapanen or Brown)?

Shop jvr bozack komarov leivo soshnikov leipsic rychel as hard as we can. Hopefully some combination of those players can do it for us. I think Vegas will deal. Those are the exact kind of players they need.

1. Kapanen or brown are both more cost controlled going forward then vatanen (ufa in 3 years) so shattenkirk is an option.. not my first choice though
2.yep,we'll take what we can get if you include these players in a proposal.. definately sell them at a discount compared to brown or kapanen. We just need to improve our d.. wouldn't care if all we can get is another carrick lvl prospect for now.
3. We have a bunch of ld prospects that are close if not NHL ready this season. Not sure if any can play the right side though. The rest of our d are all young and improving year to year. I don't think we are in a desperate enough position to deal any player we feel could be a part of our core going forward.

 

[Crosbysux]

Me too, but Vatanen isn't it

You also have to consider whose available and how realistic it is you can acquire that player. Shattenkirk is likely in NYR or LV. Barrie is similar type player as Vatanen, but is more forward than D, and a huge liability in his own end. Tanev is said to not be available, so whoever wants to acquire him is going to pay not being available prices. Reason I think this topic is so Ducks Leaf heavy is our strong trade history with each other. Even though Vatanen might not be a perfect fit from a fan's perspective, he becomes one of your best Dmen and contributor on both the PK and PP. Vatanen has also stepped up as a top pairing player for us in the past and has faired well. He's a right shot, offensive Dman, who plays well defensively. Despite being small, he throws his weight around very well. I understand you might not be a fan of his game, but Lou and Babcock are definitely doing their homework for someone who is less valuable than a guy with 9 NHL games experience. Lou also did feel it was necessary to get Bab's feedback when the price of a goalie was a 1st and 2nd. If cost of Vatanen was Kapanen, he'd already be in Toronto. We definitely may trade with another team, but Bab and Lou's presence at multiple Duck's games should be enough to understand the price of Vatanen is fairly significant and they are contemplating making it. If not, they would have never showed up for that 2nd game.

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

2nd line producing?? Maybe in the truest sense if he was in the top 180 scorers. But let's get real here, Brown is at an age where he's not going to get much better, and right now he's a good 3rd line winger who can play the PK (I don't love him on the PP tbh). That doesn't get you a solid top 4 D. Not even close.

You were doing okay until here... since when do players peak at 22? Brown will be a productive player for years to come. It's just that the leafs will likely have to include him or kap in a trade for a top 4 defenceman, it's not as if both teams aren't trading from a position of strength. The Toronto fanbase need to understand that we likely aren't going to trade for a top pair defenceman, however incremental improvements on defence is entirely doable. Vats makes sense because it would give the leafs a solid (not world beating) top 4 with prospects to round off the 7 defenceman.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

The same article also said Ducks might not want Drouin since they fear how much his next contract comes up. Ducks are, reportedly, looking for guy(s) on ELC or somewhat cost controlled. W/Drouin's past, there's red flags on how difficult it will be with him regardless of if he's arbitration eligible or not.

Would probably have to take a three year bridge deal in order to squeeze him in. Might be beneficial for both sides, Drouin maximizes future earning potential and the Ducks get a workable AAV for the near future.

 

[Crosbysux]

You were doing okay until here... since when do players peak at 22? Brown will be a productive player for years to come. It's just that the leafs will likely have to include him or kap in a trade for a top 4 defenceman, it's not as if both teams aren't trading from a position of strength. The Toronto fanbase need to understand that we likely aren't going to trade for a top pair defenceman, however incremental improvements on defence is entirely doable. Vats makes sense because it would give the leafs a solid (not world beating) top 4 with prospects to round off the 7 defenceman.

Thank you for being rational.

 

[AkiLumme]

You were doing okay until here... since when do players peak at 22? Brown will be a productive player for years to come. It's just that the leafs will likely have to include him or kap in a trade for a top 4 defenceman, it's not as if both teams aren't trading from a position of strength. The Toronto fanbase need to understand that we likely aren't going to trade for a top pair defenceman, however incremental improvements on defence is entirely doable. Vats makes sense because it would give the leafs a solid (not world beating) top 4 with prospects to round off the 7 defenceman.

Player usually hit their peak in their mid-20s. Given that Brown is 23 we're very close to tapping his full potential. He will certainly be a productive player for years to come and still has some improvement left in him I'm sure but he's not going to be making any major leaps. At this age, you have a very good indication of what you have in a player, particularly with a forward.

 

[thefish]

Which brings me back to my original question - how does Toronto improve its D without giving up something of value (i.e., Kapanen or Brown)?

Because you go one of two directions
1) Big upgrade - top line guy like Shattenkirk, or Doughty if he was available for some reason. A clear upgrade on what the Leafs have. I would include Tanev here because the fit is perfect, but cost would matter.
2) Cheap upgrade that you think has been misused or is cheap because of the ED. Vatanen, Dumba are the ED ones in theory. Guys like Pysyk, Demers, and I'm sure there are a pile of others, where you're trying to get a Top 4 D that isn't viewed as one. What Tampa did with Stralman. These change teams every year, it's just which one is the right one.

I'm not willing to pay much for Vatanen personally because he doesn't fit what Toronto needs other than RHD. He's not great 5v5 and Toronto is very strong on the PP already, so it wouldn't be a big improvement there

 

[Crosbysux]

Because you go one of two directions
1) Big upgrade - top line guy like Shattenkirk, or Doughty if he was available for some reason. A clear upgrade on what the Leafs have. I would include Tanev here because the fit is perfect, but cost would matter.
2) Cheap upgrade that you think has been misused or is cheap because of the ED. Vatanen, Dumba are the ED ones in theory. Guys like Pysyk, Demers, and I'm sure there are a pile of others, where you're trying to get a Top 4 D that isn't viewed as one. What Tampa did with Stralman. These change teams every year, it's just which one is the right one.

I'm not willing to pay much for Vatanen personally because he doesn't fit what Toronto needs other than RHD. He's not great 5v5 and Toronto is very strong on the PP already, so it wouldn't be a big improvement there

What's funny is top line guys are ones you rely on late in the game when you have a lead. Shattenkirk is the type of guy you take off the ice in those situations. He's basically been deployed as a PP specialist and guy you look to when trailing. Sami is called on to protect a lead late in the game. Shattenkirk also won't be used on the PK either, where Sami plays there very well. Shattenkirk will also cost you more $ wise and not as likely to actually sign with you.

 

[Jeypic]

What's funny is top line guys are ones you rely on late in the game when you have a lead. Shattenkirk is the type of guy you take off the ice in those situations. He's basically been deployed as a PP specialist and guy you look to when trailing. Sami is called on to protect a lead late in the game. Shattenkirk also won't be used on the PK either, where Sami plays there very well. Shattenkirk will also cost you more $ wise and not as likely to actually sign with you.

Ya but shattenkirk + kapanen + carrick> vatanen - kapanen - carrick

Now if you want to look at our trade block.. maybe vatanen can become a better option for us.

 

[thefish]

What's funny is top line guys are ones you rely on late in the game when you have a lead. Shattenkirk is the type of guy you take off the ice in those situations. He's basically been deployed as a PP specialist and guy you look to when trailing. Sami is called on to protect a lead late in the game. Shattenkirk also won't be used on the PK either, where Sami plays there very well. Shattenkirk will also cost you more $ wise and not as likely to actually sign with you.

If Vatanen was so good defensively at 5v5, PP and PK, he wouldn't be the one Anaheim was looking to move - they'd move Manson or Fowler instead.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=500&teamid=0&type=shots&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC
Shattenkirk is literally a top 10 guy in supressing shots, or top 20 relative to team. I'm very happy to put him out late in the game.

But the point was - there are many options out there, and in my opinion, Vatanen falls into the 'get only if cheap'

 

[duckpuck]

Me too, but Vatanen isn't it

Because you go one of two directions
1) Big upgrade - top line guy like Shattenkirk, or Doughty if he was available for some reason. A clear upgrade on what the Leafs have. I would include Tanev here because the fit is perfect, but cost would matter.
2) Cheap upgrade that you think has been misused or is cheap because of the ED. Vatanen, Dumba are the ED ones in theory. Guys like Pysyk, Demers, and I'm sure there are a pile of others, where you're trying to get a Top 4 D that isn't viewed as one. What Tampa did with Stralman. These change teams every year, it's just which one is the right one.

I'm not willing to pay much for Vatanen personally because he doesn't fit what Toronto needs other than RHD. He's not great 5v5 and Toronto is very strong on the PP already, so it wouldn't be a big improvement there

What's funny is top line guys are ones you rely on late in the game when you have a lead. Shattenkirk is the type of guy you take off the ice in those situations. He's basically been deployed as a PP specialist and guy you look to when trailing. Sami is called on to protect a lead late in the game. Shattenkirk also won't be used on the PK either, where Sami plays there very well. Shattenkirk will also cost you more $ wise and not as likely to actually sign with you.

Ya but shattenkirk + kapanen + carrick> vatanen - kapanen - carrick

Now if you want to look at our trade block.. maybe vatanen can become a better option for us.

Doughty is not available, so he is not a realistic option for Toronto. Vats and Shattenkirk are realistic options, as well as Dumba, Brodin, Myers, Tanev (??) and a relatively few others. Of the realistic options not named Shattenkirk or Vatanen, I think you still end up giving up a pretty big piece (brown or kap or equivalent) to improve your club.

On the ice, is Shattenkirk better than Vats? He had a tough playoffs and seems pretty one dimensional. I'll admit, not too familiar with his game. Obviously, signing him doesn't cost anything (other than big $$ and term). So in a vacuum he's a better option, at least until Toronto has salary cap issues when they resign all of the young talent they've kept (Matthews, Marner, Brown, Kap, Gardiner, etc.).

 

[heretik27]

I get that many Toronto fans don't think Vatanen is worth Kapanen or Brown.

Just skimming the last page here, but is this for real? Leafs would deal Brown for Vatanen in a heartbeat. Kapanen is unproven at this point, but has a pretty wide range where I could see him ending up as an NHL player and is much younger than Brown. I could see him potentially being good enough to warrant not wanting to trade him, but not Brown.

 

[Crosbysux]

Ya but shattenkirk + kapanen + carrick> vatanen - kapanen - carrick

Now if you want to look at our trade block.. maybe vatanen can become a better option for us.

Shattenkirk will also likely required 6 years and 6.5-7 mil to have a realistic shot of resigning him. Even then it's not likely at all. That's a tough pill to swallow for a situational defender. Seeing as you guys wanted a physical stay at home Dman, he's the exact opposite. Vatanen, despite his smaller stature, is more physical and plays a way better defensive game. He's closer to what you are asking for than Shattenkirk and comes with less cap hit.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

If Vatanen was so good defensively at 5v5, PP and PK, he wouldn't be the one Anaheim was looking to move - they'd move Manson or Fowler instead.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=500&teamid=0&type=shots&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC
Shattenkirk is literally a top 10 guy in supressing shots, or top 20 relative to team. I'm very happy to put him out late in the game.

But the point was - there are many options out there, and in my opinion, Vatanen falls into the 'get only if cheap'

Fowler being better than him doesn't do a thing to change Vatanen's worth to other teams.

Keeping Manson over Vatanen is a matter of balance/fit, not impact. Vatanen had a fair bit more responsibility than Manson, but we have young Dmen who project to be able to replace Vatanen's skillset, and absolutely​ nothing like Manson in the system.

But all of that is moot, because it has nothing to do with Vatanen's value to other teams.

 

[AkiLumme]

Doughty is not available, so he is not a realistic option for Toronto. Vats and Shattenkirk are realistic options, as well as Dumba, Brodin, Myers, Tanev (??) and a relatively few others. Of the realistic options not named Shattenkirk or Vatanen, I think you still end up giving up a pretty big piece (brown or kap or equivalent) to improve your club.

On the ice, is Shattenkirk better than Vats? He had a tough playoffs and seems pretty one dimensional. I'll admit, not too familiar with his game. Obviously, signing him doesn't cost anything (other than big $$ and term). So in a vacuum he's a better option, at least until Toronto has salary cap issues when they resign all of the young talent they've kept (Matthews, Marner, Brown, Kap, Gardiner, etc.).

Part of the reason he had a tough playoffs is that he wasn't playing insanely sheltered minutes like he was with the Blues. Incredibly one-dimensional, PP specialist. I'd rather trade for a guy like Vatanen than sign Shattenkirk long-term.

 

[thefish]

Fowler being better than him doesn't do a thing to change Vatanen's worth to other teams.

Keeping Manson over Vatanen is a matter of balance/fit, not impact. Vatanen had a fair bit more responsibility than Manson, but we have young Dmen who project to be able to replace Vatanen's skillset, and absolutely​ nothing like Manson in the system.

But all of that is moot, because it has nothing to do with Vatanen's value to other teams.

I get that. I'm just saying he can't be an amazing defender that you send out at the end of games to close teams out AND a top PP QB AND a guy who anchors a PK. If he's that guy, he's one of the 5 best d-men in the entire league. That's a description of Karlsson or Doughty.

I think Vatanen is what he accuses Shattenkirk of being - a great PP guy who isn't great 5v5 unless he has an excellent partner. Leafs need a flip of that - great at 5v5 and PP doesn't really matter

 

[Crosbysux]

If Vatanen was so good defensively at 5v5, PP and PK, he wouldn't be the one Anaheim was looking to move - they'd move Manson or Fowler instead.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=500&teamid=0&type=shots&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC
Shattenkirk is literally a top 10 guy in supressing shots, or top 20 relative to team. I'm very happy to put him out late in the game.

But the point was - there are many options out there, and in my opinion, Vatanen falls into the 'get only if cheap'

Nice, looking at web pages rather than watching games. My buddy is a St Louis fan and I watch plenty of their games. You Could see what a disaster Shattenkirk was with Caps. You can throw 6.5 at him since the web page tells you too, but Winnik was supposedly an elite player according to those same pages, so maybe you should give him that type of money too.

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

Ya but shattenkirk + kapanen + carrick> vatanen - kapanen - carrick

Now if you want to look at our trade block.. maybe vatanen can become a better option for us.

Wait, what? I'm a leaf fan and am having trouble with this. I get that vats is going through recovery and his shot might get affected, but someone else can overpay for shattenkirk. He's overhyped and not going to be worth the 6m+ that it's been speculated he would look for. That said, after shatts signs in jersey Who are the leafs options... alzner? Alzner is, again, not a guy I would put big money out for. Trouba, savard, johnson... all on teams with similar needs. The only other "realistic" target might be hjalmerrson. He's going to likely cost more than vatanen. I would barf if the leafs signed shattenkirk.

 

[dracom]

Ya but shattenkirk + kapanen + carrick> vatanen - kapanen - carrick

Now if you want to look at our trade block.. maybe vatanen can become a better option for us.

Now if you want to actually offer us something that fits our needs, since it's Leafs fans always asking, you can make an offer that is a better option for us.