Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[blundluntman]

Penguins beat the 4th placed Caps with a 87.78 save percentage in 08-09 in the second round, which seems quite close to the challenge the Oilers faced in beating the 2nd place Avalanche with an 87.21 save percentage.

Now I never saw it but I can look at the numbers.

The Penguins received very little help from their bottom six. They produced a 40% goal differential at 5v5 and had a 73.7% PK with no shorties (marginally lower than the 75% Edmonton posted against Colorado).

The single biggest thing going for the Penguins was Sidney Crosby going +5 through the 7 game series which he mostly did with Chris Kunitz and Bill Guerin.

By comparison Connor McDavid comes out of the Avalanche series with a -2 at 5v5 despite playing over half his minutes with Draisaitl.

In both cases, the results aren't that far from goals are expected.

Sid is also on ice for 8 PP goals in 7 games rather than 2 in 4.

Swap those 2 performances and the the Oilers probably beat the Avalanche.

Also while I'm not sure he'd win with a goalie posting an .883, he did win with MAF's -.238 below expected an hour. Only one other team has been below that since according to Moneypuck - or even just below negative iirc - and that's Colorado. So Crosby has gone as good a shot as anyone at doing it.

I don’t think Washington is all that comparable to Colorado. Colorado had way more defensive depth and a surplus of offensive firepower. If you simply compare rosters, you’ll see a significant quality wise. You’ll perform better against a team like Washington who lacks the defensive depth that Colorado had with Makar, Toews, Manson, Byram, Girard and Johnson. You can’t look at Crosby and Mcdavid’s performances in a vacuum because the quality of competition isn’t the same. Perhaps Crosby performs well against Colorado but i don’t think the performance of one player makes a team go from a 4 game sweep to a series win. That’s a bit extreme. I do agree that Crosby played very well on Pittsburgh but i don’t think he wins with the Oilers. Fleury was very inconsistent but in the games he won, he had extremely good numbers. Having a goalie who can turn it on when things matter gives a team a much better chance. Stuart wasn’t inconsistent, he was very consistently abysmal and let it in awfully timed goals. I don’t think one player can make enough of a difference to turn things around to that degree

 

[blundluntman]

Vs LA:
Gm2: goal 1 & 2
Gm3: goal 1
Gm5: arguably goal 1 as Draisaitl was cherrypicking and led to a failed out

Vs LV:
Gm2: goal 1
Gm 3: arguably goal 3 as Foegele pressuring the point too aggressively and not getting it led directly to Whitecloud finding an open lane to the net
Gm 6: goal 2

3 goals against in each series isn’t even close to a majority or significant enough amount to make a difference in a series. The games Edmonton lost were not close games that came down to the wire. And even so, notice how Mcdavid wasn’t even the perpetrator in any of your examples. This thread is about Crosby vs mcdavid and we should focus on Mcdavid’s game if you want to criticize him. How is he to blame for Draisaitl and Foegele’s defensive mishaps? He plays deep in his own zone and even forced turnovers that are converted into scoring opportunities. Your points don’t suggest any flaw in Mcdavid’s game

 

[blundluntman]

I actually agree with what most of you said.

For me, McDavid is already top 10 all time.

It's just people argue points as if it explains everything.

Firstly, the era is hiring scoring. Secondly, we never saw Crosby's prime because of a cheap shot.

Most importantly, all that truly matters is a player's net.

If a guy scores 100 points and 80 points happen against him, he's doing less than a guy who scores 80 points and limits the other team to 50.

Points don't explain everything.

McDavid's complete game is still lacking, and that's at least part of the reason they haven't won.

He turns the puck over. In the playoffs. In OT.



That's not "the team's fault".

I don’t get the relevance of the net +/- argument bc Crosby’s +/- isn’t any better than Mcdavid’s if you actually look at their stats. I don’t think Mcdavid’s complete game is any more lacking than Crosby’s was at the same respective age. Points don’t explain everything but they most certainly make a difference and give your team a better chance to win when you’re on the ice for more goals than goals against. Even if we didn’t see Crosby’s prime, that doesn’t automatically prove it would’ve been as high as Mcdavid’s, if anything, that’s even more of a question Mark. With that being said, I definitely believe that Crosby is pretty close to Mcdavid, I just don’t believe that certain narratives prove he’s decisively better

 

[Three On Zero]

He’s not “always” bringing home playoff mvps.

Please. The closest thing to the show for you is clinging onto your Sidney body pillow.

Henri Richard> Crosby right? After all, he knows WINNING more than Crosby.

Koogler > Tad > Droods

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Again with the falsehoods. There was no cheap shot.

Crosby had poor on-ice awareness and turned abruptly while not looking where he was going into another player who was skating in a straight line.

Steckel was standing still when Crosby began his turn lol. And then decided to try to skate inside of Crosby's turning radius instead of going straight up the ice, which is what he should have done. That was Crosby's ice he was skating through, which is why he ran into him, not the other way around.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

3 goals against in each series isn’t even close to a majority or significant enough amount to make a difference in a series. The games Edmonton lost were not close games that came down to the wire. And even so, notice how Mcdavid wasn’t even the perpetrator in any of your examples. This thread is about Crosby vs mcdavid and we should focus on Mcdavid’s game if you want to criticize him. How is he to blame for Draisaitl and Foegele’s defensive mishaps? He plays deep in his own zone and even forced turnovers that are converted into scoring opportunities. Your points don’t suggest any flaw in Mcdavid’s game

3 goals in a series is half a goal per game. Saying that it doesn't make a difference is a really odd statement- it would raise Skinner's SV% over .900, for one.

And one of those examples was on McDavid in the LA series, I'll leave that to you to look up. Focusing on individual goals is also somewhat missing the forest for the trees, you can make bad plays and have your goalie bail you out, while responsible players can get let down by their goalie. A goal against has more factors involved than the play of one player. I was trying to show that the Oilers' playstyle leads to chances, and goals against.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you joking? I really can't tell.

In 09, the Penguins were carried by Malkin's all time great post-season, not Crosby's (who only had 3 points in the series against Detroit btw). You can't use that as an example of Crosby carrying the team when he wasn't even the best player on his team in their cup run. Btw, McDavid had a better postseason last year than Crosby and outproduced him in 3 rounds (he had a +15 also so you can't use the "he only racks up points" argument).

I already explained how horrendous the Oilers' goaltending was in 2023, Skinner had a .883 vs Fleury's .908 (you tried to blame it on cherrypicking but I disproved that too, which you ignored) which is clearly the reason why they lost, considering their offense was firing on all cylinders. And I also asked people how Crosby on the 2022 Oilers would beat the 2022 Avs, which once again, nobody addressed.

Your arguments are completely based on Extrapolations and ignore concrete facts and important contextualization just to elevate Crosby since his regular season accomplishments pale in comparison to McDavid. The two are much closer than you think, this isn't some clear cut landslide because of team accomplishments.

Malkin had one more 5v5 point than Sid at 5v5..

Sid and Malkin carried that team. Malkin just had the advantage of not playing against Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the Cup Finals. Sid was a huge part of us winning that series with his performances in G3 and G4.

 

[blundluntman]

Malkin had one more 5v5 point than Sid at 5v5..

Sid and Malkin carried that team. Malkin just had the advantage of not playing against Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the Cup Finals. Sid was a huge part of us winning that series with his performances in G3 and G4.

So power play points don’t matter at all? Him outperforming Crosby in the third and 4th round don’t matter at all? Malkin was clearly the better player, especially in the cup finals. I don’t even say that to discredit Crosby, moreso to prove that Crosby isn’t exclusively responsible for team success. Winning is one variable but it isn’t the decisive factor when evaluating players. Otherwise Beliveau would be higher rated than Gordon Howe. McDavid individually has played just as well in the postseason as Crosby. Mario isn’t lower rated than Gretzky bc Gretzky won more, he’s rated lower bc his peak was slightly lower and he didn’t dominate as consistently bc of injuries. The exact same thing can be said for Crosby

 

[Gurglesons]

So power play points don’t matter at all? Him outperforming Crosby in the third and 4th round don’t matter at all? Malkin was clearly the better player, especially in the cup finals. I don’t even say that to discredit Crosby, moreso to prove that Crosby isn’t exclusively responsible for team success. Winning is one variable but it isn’t the decisive factor when evaluating players. Otherwise Beliveau would be higher rated than Gordon Howe. McDavid individually has played just as well in the postseason as Crosby. Mario isn’t lower rated than Gretzky bc Gretzky won more, he’s rated lower bc his peak was slightly lower and he didn’t dominate as consistently bc of injuries. The exact same thing can be said for Crosby

Nobody is saying winning is the only thing that matters.

Malkin was not clearly the better player. Crosby was on the ice for one less goal throughout the playoffs. He also was on the ice for a total of 12 goals while playing top line minutes.

Sid was on the powerplay when Malkin scored the majority of his points.

McDavid has not played individually as well as Crosby in the post season. If he had, he would have a cup. There a multiple incidents in the 08 and 09 playoffs were Sid put in the dagger to win the series. McDavid hasn't had those moments yet outside of the 1st round and the Calgary series.. Maybe one day he will.

 

[blundluntman]

3 goals in a series is half a goal per game. Saying that it doesn't make a difference is a really odd statement- it would raise Skinner's SV% over .900, for one.

And one of those examples was on McDavid in the LA series, I'll leave that to you to look up. Focusing on individual goals is also somewhat missing the forest for the trees, you can make bad plays and have your goalie bail you out, while responsible players can get let down by their goalie. A goal against has more factors involved than the play of one player. I was trying to show that the Oilers' playstyle leads to chances, and goals against.

You do realize Hill had a .934 sv% right? 3 goals will not bridge that gap.

That’s a criticism on the entire team, not one player so how is that relevant to why Crosby is better mcdavid? The entire premise of my point is that there’s more to team success than one players intangibles. The entire point of this thread is about Crosby vs Mcdavid, not the penguins vs the oilers. Bringing up examples of one bad play or other players’ miscues doesn’t make mcdavid a less effective/valuable player than Crosby

Nobody is saying winning is the only thing that matters.

Malkin was not clearly the better player. Crosby was on the ice for one less goal throughout the playoffs. He also was on the ice for a total of 12 goals while playing top line minutes.

Sid was on the powerplay when Malkin scored the majority of his points.

McDavid has not played individually as well as Crosby in the post season. If he had, he would have a cup. There a multiple incidents in the 08 and 09 playoffs were Sid put in the dagger to win the series. McDavid hasn't had those moments yet outside of the 1st round and the Calgary series.. Maybe one day he will.

He literally has but ok. You can be the best player in the playoffs and still lose, just look at JS Giguere in 03.

You must have missed the entire LA Series last year.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

You do realize Hill had a .934 sv% right? 3 goals will not bridge that gap.

That’s a criticism on the entire team, not one player so how is that relevant to why Crosby is better mcdavid? The entire premise of my point is that there’s more to team success than one players intangibles. The entire point of this thread is about Crosby vs Mcdavid, not the penguins vs the oilers. Bringing up examples of one bad play or other players’ miscues doesn’t make mcdavid a less effective/valuable player than Crosby


He literally has but ok. You can be the best player in the playoffs and still lose, just look at JS Giguere in 03.

You must have missed the entire LA Series last year.

I'm providing an explanation on why most goalies see their SV% drop when joining Edmonton. This same style also does lead to better offensive chances. That's the tradeoff the Oilers have decided to make, but they are intrinsically linked.

You are trying to give McDavid all the credit for his offensive production, which is partially enabled by the team's style, while the drawbacks to that system you pin only on his teammates.

 

[Gurglesons]

You do realize Hill had a .934 sv% right? 3 goals will not bridge that gap.

That’s a criticism on the entire team, not one player so how is that relevant to why Crosby is better mcdavid? The entire premise of my point is that there’s more to team success than one players intangibles. The entire point of this thread is about Crosby vs Mcdavid, not the penguins vs the oilers. Bringing up examples of one bad play or other players’ miscues doesn’t make mcdavid a less effective/valuable player than Crosby


He literally has but ok. You can be the best player in the playoffs and still lose, just look at JS Giguere in 03.

You must have missed the entire LA Series last year.

"So Ryan Kesler is as good as Sidney Crosby" - @blundluntman29

 

[blundluntman]

"So Ryan Kesler is as good as Sidney Crosby" - @blundluntman29

????? If that's what you got from my reply, I'm not wasting any more time going back and forth with you lol

 

[Gurglesons]

????? If that's what you got from my reply, I'm not wasting any more time going back and forth with you lol

Isn't this the same logic you are using saying "all we care about is winning"?

Kesler absolutely crushed a 2nd round series once. So he's on Crosby's level right?

 

[blundluntman]

I'm providing an explanation on why most goalies see their SV% drop when joining Edmonton. This same style also does lead to better offensive chances. That's the tradeoff the Oilers have decided to make, but they are intrinsically linked.

You are trying to give McDavid all the credit for his offensive production, which is partially enabled by the team's style, while the drawbacks to that system you pin only on his teammates.

I'm not denying that a team can lean toward offensive production more than defensive play. But even if that's the case, you don't think the fact the fact that Stuart Skinner is a rookie and let in a multitude of soft goals that should've been stopped plays a factor? It's not just one thing that explains why a team concedes goals. Both can be true at the same time.

Sure, McDavid isn't the only one responsible for his offensive production. But he still has 5 art rosses and 3 hart trophies, and outscores and eleveates his teammates in that regard. That counts for something. He certainly does lean more towards offense because he helps his team more in that way, but it doesn't mean he focuses so much on offense that he costs his team games. That was my point in referring to the fact that you couldn't find many direct examples of that happening in his case in particular. He backchecks, kills penalties, and is able to force turnovers in the defensive zone. Just because he scores a lot of points, it doesn't mean he neglects his other responsibilities, it just means that's that's he does best.

 

[blundluntman]

Isn't this the same logic you are using saying "all we care about is winning"?

Kesler absolutely crushed a 2nd round series once. So he's on Crosby's level right?

Has Kesler won 5 art rosses, 3 hart trophies and lead the league in postseason scoring in only 3 rounds? Has he scored at 2 ppg in an entire postseason campaign? Has he consecutively dominated the Flames and Kings in the same postseason and scored 150 points? If you seriously think Kesler playing well in one round is the same thing as what McDavid has done over the last 7 years, I'm done talking to you.

 

[Video Nasty]

I'm not denying that a team can lean toward offensive production more than defensive play. But even if that's the case, you don't think the fact the fact that Stuart Skinner is a rookie and let in a multitude of soft goals that should've been stopped plays a factor? It's not just one thing that explains why a team concedes goals. Both can be true at the same time.

Sure, McDavid isn't the only one responsible for his offensive production. But he still has 5 art rosses and 3 hart trophies, and outscores and eleveates his teammates in that regard. That counts for something. He certainly does lean more towards offense because he helps his team more in that way, but it doesn't mean he focuses so much on offense that he costs his team games. That was my point in referring to the fact that you couldn't find many direct examples of that happening in his case in particular. He backchecks, kills penalties, and is able to force turnovers in the defensive zone. Just because he scores a lot of points, it doesn't mean he neglects his other responsibilities, it just means that's that's he does best.

Chalk it up to they don’t actually watch him play or have never been to live games where they can literally just focus on him and what he’s doing during each and every shift he’s on the ice.

If they are watching and drawing these conclusions, that makes it impossible to take their analysis of Crosby as a two way wizard who casts buff spells on his teammates to will them to victory seriously.

 

[blundluntman]

Chalk it up to they don’t actually watch him play or have never been to live games where they can literally just focus on him and what he’s doing during each and every shift he’s on the ice.

If they are watching and drawing these conclusions, that makes it impossible to take their analysis of Crosby as a two way wizard who casts buff spells on his teammates to will them to victory seriously.

Yeah that's probably the best thing to do. At this point the back and forth is pretty fruitless.

 

[Raistlin]

I’m sure having core players like Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, and Lidstrom join the team in 1990-1991 and 1991-1992, as well as Osgood/Vernon/Fetisov, along the way, and Larionov, Murphy, Shanahan, and every other piece that helped give Detroit the depth needed to compete for and win Cups.

Oh, I’m also sure Bowman coming in had something to do with it as well.

But yeah, it was all down to Yzerman sacrificing his offensive game to become a better two way player and simply being a winner.

Yet it took him until his 14th season to lift the Cup.

It’s almost as if every all-time player ever had an excellent team around them. How curious.

Isn't that a cop out? McD has the second best player in the league for how long? The one that performs better than him in the playoffs? Didn't I also keep hearing how an amazing 3C RNH is? Or in the end you guys will always blame it on the goalie ruining McDs chances when Adin Hill can win it all?

The issue is, it wasn't even close all these years... He never played defense until recently. You cannot compare him with Crosby when it comes to winning. When it comes to pure offense and skating McD wins hands down.

 

[pi314]

Malkin had one more 5v5 point than Sid at 5v5..

Sid and Malkin carried that team. Malkin just had the advantage of not playing against Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the Cup Finals. Sid was a huge part of us winning that series with his performances in G3 and G4.

This.

Put Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and Rafalski against Geno and Sid lights the lamp.

I don’t get the relevance of the net +/- argument bc Crosby’s +/- isn’t any better than Mcdavid’s if you actually look at their stats. I don’t think Mcdavid’s complete game is any more lacking than Crosby’s was at the same respective age. Points don’t explain everything but they most certainly make a difference and give your team a better chance to win when you’re on the ice for more goals than goals against. Even if we didn’t see Crosby’s prime, that doesn’t automatically prove it would’ve been as high as Mcdavid’s, if anything, that’s even more of a question Mark. With that being said, I definitely believe that Crosby is pretty close to Mcdavid, I just don’t believe that certain narratives prove he’s decisively better

+/- is an attempt to measure a player's net but is far, far from perfect.

A player's real net is what matters.

Scoring is only part of the equation.

 

[Video Nasty]

Isn't that a cop out? McD has the second best player in the league for how long? The one that performs better than him in the playoffs? Didn't I also keep hearing how an amazing 3C RNH is? Or in the end you guys will always blame it on the goalie ruining McDs chances when Adin Hill can win it all?

The issue is, it wasn't even close all these years... He never played defense until recently. You cannot compare him with Crosby when it comes to winning. When it comes to pure offense and skating McD wins hands down.

If pointing out how Yzerman eventually had a stacked squad built around him and was coached by one of the greatest hockey minds ever to help him succeed to counter the lazy people who say that he is a born winner who sacrificed his offensive game for better two way play and is THE reason why Detroit eventually had great success is a cop out, yeah sure.

I have steadfastly maintained the belief that every single all time great down the line needs a well run organization built around them to give them the best chance to succeed. I’m not convinced that McDavid has been supplied with the tools needed, seeing as how goaltending has failed the Oilers time and again, whether it’s through mere horrible play, inconsistency, or both.

McDavid has been better than Drai in each of the most recent, most relevant runs. Drai was awesome and then totally let the team down in Games 3-6 against Vegas, both offensively and defensively (get on him if you want to give anyone grief, which I still wouldn’t). 2021 is even. He was also better in 2020.

But sure, hang on to the 2017 playoffs and the extra couple of points tagged to his career totals to construct your narrative.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Chalk it up to they don’t actually watch him play or have never been to live games where they can literally just focus on him and what he’s doing during each and every shift he’s on the ice.

If they are watching and drawing these conclusions, that makes it impossible to take their analysis of Crosby as a two way wizard who casts buff spells on his teammates to will them to victory seriously.

I've seen McDavid live and he was chilling in the NZ when the puck was in his own end

 

[Video Nasty]

I've seen McDavid live and he was chilling in the NZ when the puck was in his own end

Oh yeah? What game was that?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Oh yeah? What game was that?

pick a game recently where the Oilers have slapped around Sidney "does whatever it takes to win" Crosby and the Pens

 

[dirtydanglez]

im surprised this isn't a landslide win for mcdavid. mcdavid is crosby turned up to 11.