Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[The Grim Reaper]

Crosby haters:

 

[Midnight Judges]

Steckel was standing still when Crosby began his turn lol. And then decided to try to skate inside of Crosby's turning radius instead of going straight up the ice, which is what he should have done. That was Crosby's ice he was skating through, which is why he ran into him, not the other way around.

Steckel did go straight up the ice towards the play. Calling that "Crosby's ice" is unfounded.

You will not find a hockey coach on Earth who tells the players to turn abruptly face first with their head down while not looking where they are going - which is precisely what Crosby did.

Whatever the case, it certainly wasn't a cheap shot or anything like that. David Steckel was always an honest player who answered the bell.

 

[Fatass]

considering the OP’s thread title and first post why would anyone choose McDavid. What we know now is Crosby Leafs his teams to three Cups and McDavid has none. What is the argument against Crosby bringing three Cups to the club that drafts him. This is a fantasy thread. “Knowing what we know now”. It’s not about which player is better. Imo anyone choosing McDavid is saying Cups aren’t as valuable as individual awards. To me the Vups for my team come ahead of individual awards for the players.

 

[Signupnow]

Where does the idea that Crosby has a great two-way game come from? It's not true now, and it certainly wasn't true back when was the best player in the league (think 06-07).

Some of you people talk about him like he has the two-way game of Pavel Datsyuk.

When she slowed down he had to be portrayed like bergeron instead to keep the hype going.

Mcdavid points are inflated by pp and 3v3 and goalie equipment.

I pick Crosby.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm providing an explanation on why most goalies see their SV% drop when joining Edmonton. This same style also does lead to better offensive chances. That's the tradeoff the Oilers have decided to make, but they are intrinsically linked.

You are trying to give McDavid all the credit for his offensive production, which is partially enabled by the team's style, while the drawbacks to that system you pin only on his teammates.

By that same token, MAF's stats improved away from Crosby despite MAF getting into his mid 30s.

Surely you attribute that to Sid and the style he got to play because surely you are consistent on this point.

 

[Three On Zero]

What amazes me the most is that this poll has over 600 votes

 

[bambamcam4ever]

By that same token, MAF's stats improved away from Crosby despite MAF getting into his mid 30s.

Surely you attribute that to Sid and the style he got to play because surely you are consistent on this point.

The Penguins have had a number of coaches in Crosby's career. Some were better for offense, some were better for their goalies' stats. The Penguins have not played the same style his whole career, as I'm sure you know, and neither have the Capitals for that matter. OV put up better numbers when he was under Boudreau, but that's not a slight against him, it's just context to numbers. McDavid has fundamentally played in the same style breakout his whole career with the possible exception of the Hitchcock season (but Oilers fans would know better than me on this)

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Steckel did go straight up the ice towards the play. Calling that "Crosby's ice" is unfounded.

You will not find a hockey coach on Earth who tells the players to turn abruptly face first with their head down while not looking where they are going - which is precisely what Crosby did.

Whatever the case, it certainly wasn't a cheap shot or anything like that. David Steckel was always an honest player who answered the bell.

I never said it was a cheapshot, but Steckel took a terrible route to get up ice.

Instead of skating straight north through the open ice (green arrow), Steckel skates diagonally (red arrow) through Crosby’s established turning path (blue arrow).

In the 2nd frame you can see how his hips and feet are facing towards the boards instead of straight down the ice.

Crosby looked where he was turning before he started his turn and saw the ice was clear. There were no other players underneath his turning lane when he began his turn, so he had no reason to suspect he'd get cut off like that. This wasn't an abrupt turn into traffic, it was a slow gliding turn into open ice. Ice that should have remained open. Crosby began his turn almost 2 full seconds before contact, right in front of Steckel, and Steckel still couldn't figure out how to not skate through his path.

There was no reason for Steckel to take a worse angle that forces him to cut through another player's intended path. It was just a very unfortunate, low IQ play on his part.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I never said it was a cheapshot, but Steckel took a terrible route to get up ice.

View attachment 731182

Instead of skating straight north through the open ice (green arrow), Steckel skates diagonally (red arrow) through Crosby’s established turning path (blue arrow).

In the 2nd frame you can see how his hips and feet are facing towards the boards instead of straight down the ice.

Crosby looked where he was turning before he started his turn and saw the ice was clear. There were no other players underneath his turning lane when he began his turn, so he had no reason to suspect he'd get cut off like that. This wasn't an abrupt turn into traffic, it was a slow gliding turn into open ice. Ice that should have remained open. Crosby began his turn almost 2 full seconds before contact, right in front of Steckel, and Steckel still couldn't figure out how to not skate through his path.

There was no reason for Steckel to take a worse angle that forces him to cut through another player's intended path. It was just a very unfortunate, low IQ play on his part.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

I never said it was a cheapshot, but Steckel took a terrible route to get up ice.

View attachment 731182

Instead of skating straight north through the open ice (green arrow), Steckel skates diagonally (red arrow) through Crosby’s established turning path (blue arrow).

In the 2nd frame you can see how his hips and feet are facing towards the boards instead of straight down the ice.

Crosby looked where he was turning before he started his turn and saw the ice was clear. There were no other players underneath his turning lane when he began his turn, so he had no reason to suspect he'd get cut off like that. This wasn't an abrupt turn into traffic, it was a slow gliding turn into open ice. Ice that should have remained open. Crosby began his turn almost 2 full seconds before contact, right in front of Steckel, and Steckel still couldn't figure out how to not skate through his path.

There was no reason for Steckel to take a worse angle that forces him to cut through another player's intended path. It was just a very unfortunate, low IQ play on his part.

There was a 2nd shooter at the circle! They never even got onside. The video evidence is faked.

 

[authentic]

Midnight Judges ^

 

[Regal]

considering the OP’s thread title and first post why would anyone choose McDavid. What we know now is Crosby Leafs his teams to three Cups and McDavid has none. What is the argument against Crosby bringing three Cups to the club that drafts him. This is a fantasy thread. “Knowing what we know now”. It’s not about which player is better. Imo anyone choosing McDavid is saying Cups aren’t as valuable as individual awards. To me the Vups for my team come ahead of individual awards for the players.

This was already addressed. You’re reading the thread differently than the majority (and what the OP intended). The OP is asking who you would draft with the hindsight of what we know now, but with all new careers for your team. If you don’t want to read it that way, that’s fine, but you can’t project your interpretation onto others and then criticize their responses as if they interpreted it the way you did. Literally no one is saying they’d rather have their team’s players win individual awards over their team winning multiple cups. Anyone picking McDavid is doing so because they believe he’d be more likely to help their team win in the long haul (likely because they think he’s the better player).

 

[Fatass]

This was already addressed. You’re reading the thread differently than the majority (and what the OP intended). No one is saying they’d rather have their team’s players win individual awards over their team winning multiple cups.

Crosby three Cups. McDavid none. That’s what we “know now”. Very simple interpretation. Three Cups to the club that drafts Crosby. None to the club (so far) that drafts McDavid. The OP needs to change the thread title and the first post for the thread to be different.
This isn’t about which player is better.

 

[Regal]

Crosby three Cups. McDavid none. That’s what we “know now”. Very simple interpretation. Three Cups to the club that drafts Crosby. None to the club (so far) that drafts McDavid. The OP needs to change the thread title and the first post for the thread to be different.
This isn’t about which player is better.

Yet everyone else seemed to understand the question just fine. It’s not necessary the best player, as there are intangibles to consider, but it 100% is not suggesting the players win exactly what they’ve won so far, whether individual awards or cups. Redrafts are a pretty common discussion, and “what we know now” is about what we know about how they’ve turned out as players (how they adapted to the league, how well they aged, how fast they hit their peak, how they did in big games, etc). It’s not “I’ll take Colin Fraser over Shea Weber in a 2003 redraft because he won two cups”

 

[Fatass]

Yet everyone else seemed to understand the question just fine. It’s not necessary the best player, as there are intangibles to consider, but it 100% is not suggesting the players win exactly what they’ve won so far, whether individual awards or cups. Redrafts are a pretty common discussion, and “what we know now” is about what we know about how they’ve turned out as players (how they adapted to the league, how well they aged, how fast they hit their peak, how they did in big games, etc). It’s not “I’ll take Colin Fraser over Shea Weber in a 2003 redraft because he won two cups”

The OP mentions in his first post about Crosby’s legacy of winning championships. Clearly this thread is a fantasy about “what we know now” about these two players’ careers. And Crosby has led his team to three Cups. He has, as the OP points out, a legacy of winning. I will draft him and his three Cups. Start a new thread if you want to compare the two players sans Cups.

 

[LightningStorm]

People taking Crosby because of intangibles and team awards reminds me of when people would take Toews over Crosby. Maybe not as extreme, but still a stretch.

McDavid is at a level that Crosby has come nowhere close to. McDavid would need a rapid decline like Ovechkin after 2010 to make this close.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Obviously Crosby is closer offensively to McDavid than Toews was to Crosby, but it feels like the same type of narrative is being pushed.

Very different scenarios.

The difference between Crosby and McDavid's on-ice ability is largely marginal and the difference in hardware mostly comes down to health. Last year is the only full season in McDavid's career that is clearly better than anything from Sid, even when you account for scoring differences. But the way people talk about McDavid's offense, you'd think he was in the midst of a Gretzky-like prime putting up these totals year-over-year. He's not (or, at least, there's no way of knowing this until he keeps it up for another 6-7 years) and just about lost out on the previous year's scoring race to Gaudreau and Huberdeau.

When there isn't much separating two players (as was also the case in the Sid vs. OV debate), the little things matter. The problem was that Toews was nowhere near Crosby's level and it became a running joke that the hockey hipsters of the late 00s/early-10s would use defense to make up for a massive difference in offensive ability.

Here's how I view the McDavid/Crosby debate compared to the Crosby/Toews debate: the former is obviously a valid one while the latter was always a joke. But there are some similarities in obsessing too much over team success (fallacy of division) and willfully overlooking their different situations. Toews winning 3 cups doesn't put him on equal footing as Crosby, as the Hawks were simply a deeper and more well rounded team than the Pens at the time (prime Keith was on another level compared to any d-man Crosby or McDavid played with). Similarly, the Pens as an organization are simply better than the Oilers. In addition to having some incompetent management, Edmonton is up there with the most disadvantageous markets in the NHL. I'll repeat it again: it's why many on this forum were upset that the Oilers won the McDavid sweepstakes and were saying his career was screwed at the time.

If Crosby were a great 2 way player, his superior 2 way play could be used to close the gap with McDavid in a way Toews' Selke level defense could never close the gap with Crosby due to the much larger scoring disparity in that comparison. But Crosby being a great 2 way player was a myth made up to keep him in the conversation for best in the world when he was no longer winning scoring titles. He's not bad defensively, but his defense isn't enough to close the gap between the offensive edge McDavid has over him.

 

[LightningStorm]

The OP mentions in his first post about Crosby’s legacy of winning championships. Clearly this thread is a fantasy about “what we know now” about these two players’ careers. And Crosby has led his team to three Cups. He has, as the OP points out, a legacy of winning. I will draft him and his three Cups. Start a new thread if you want to compare the two players sans Cups.

The OP didn't say that Crosby and McDavid will be taking their Pens and Oilers teammates with them, so the cups part is irrelevant. This is the draft, where players can't take their team situation with them to whatever team they get drafted by.

 

[Nabrules]

McDavid is the best hockey player since 99.

 

[wetcoast]

What amazes me the most is that this poll has over 600 votes

Part of that is a good thing as it's shows passion and interest but it's also the bad part of hockey fandom.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Or Crosby elevated his teams to better finishes.

Crosby missed enough time in his prime to make it plainly obvious that his teams were still very good even when he wasn’t playing.

 

[LightningStorm]

Crosby missed enough time in his prime to make it plainly obvious that his teams were still very good even when he wasn’t playing.

Exactly. In 10/11, Crosby and Malkin each only played half the season, and the Pens still made the playoffs. Even had a 3-1 lead on a Bolts team who would later sweep the President's Trophy Caps the next round and push the eventual cup champion Bruins to 7 games. And this is after losing Crosby during what would've likely been his historic season that year had he been healthy.

The next year, Crosby only played a quarter of the season and the Pens made it back to the playoffs again behind Malkin's MVP year. The idea that the Oilers could make the playoffs with McDavid missing the same amount of time is a joke.

 

[lawrence]

Crosby has led his club to three Cups. My team has no Cups. McDavid has no Cups. Definitely want Crosby.

Henrik sedin jarome iginla has no cups.

However Patrick maroon has 3 cups!

Patrick maroon >>>>>>>> iginla and hank

 

[Peat]

The OP didn't say that Crosby and McDavid will be taking their Pens and Oilers teammates with them, so the cups part is irrelevant. This is the draft, where players can't take their team situation with them to whatever team they get drafted by.

It's not irrelevant because we've got one guy who we know can be a difference maker in the big moments and who can lead a team to victory because he's got the big bag of bling to prove it, and one guy who's a bit more mysterious box.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's not irrelevant because we've got one guy who we know can be a difference maker in the big moments and who can lead a team to victory because he's got the big bag of bling to prove it, and one guy who's a bit more mysterious box.

1.89 PPG over the last two postseasons. If you think that’s a “mystery box” because his team didn’t win the magic trophy that magically transforms players from bad to good and good to great then I think you just lack imagination.

 

[LightningStorm]

1.89 PPG over the last two postseasons. If you think that’s a “mystery box” because his team didn’t win the magic trophy that magically transforms players from bad to good and good to great then I think you just lack imagination.

To add to this, Crosby had a below average Smythe win when the Pens won the cup in 2016. The fact that I didn't think he deserved it is a different story, but my point is the Oilers would come nowhere near a cup with McDavid having a postseason like that.

Also, since 2010, McDavid's 33 point postseason is the highest if you discount the round robin games played in the 2020 bubble.