Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[ricky0034]

it amuses me how Crosby fans have become the literal embodiment of the Toews making that Centennial list over Malkin thing that probably really annoyed them and don't see the irony in it

 

[Fatass]

Henrik sedin jarome iginla has no cups.

However Patrick maroon has 3 cups!

Patrick maroon >>>>>>>> iginla and hank

This thread isn’t about those players. And it’s not about IMO which player is better. The topic of this fantasy is who do we draft “knowing what we know” now between Crosby or McDavid? The OP mentions this in his post. He talks about McDavid as the better player but that Crosby brings winning championships.

“Age to age - McDavid is having the better career so far. I think that's almost unquestionable. But a redraft introduces a few dynamics worth considering that may make Crosby the more attractive option:
Winning Pedigree. Crosby has an insane winning pedigree in his career, that has followed him at every level, juniors, NHL playoffs”

Crosby leads his team (we know this now) to three Cups. McDavid (we know now) has so far led his team to no Cups. In my view this thread isn’t about which player is better or has had the better individual career. It’s a fantasy where we get to draft one or the other to our club and he brings “what we know” are his accomplishments. Crosby brings three Cups. McDavid brings brilliant talent. For my club I prefer the three Cups.

 

[General Fanager]

Its still Sid for me.....getting close though....

 

[bobholly39]

This thread isn’t about those players. And it’s not about IMO which player is better. The topic of this fantasy is who do we draft “knowing what we know” now between Crosby or McDavid? The OP mentions this in his post. He talks about McDavid as the better player but that Crosby brings winning championships.

“Age to age - McDavid is having the better career so far. I think that's almost unquestionable. But a redraft introduces a few dynamics worth considering that may make Crosby the more attractive option:
Winning Pedigree. Crosby has an insane winning pedigree in his career, that has followed him at every level, juniors, NHL playoffs”

Crosby leads his team (we know this now) to three Cups. McDavid (we know now) has so far led his team to no Cups. In my view this thread isn’t about which player is better or has had the better individual career. It’s a fantasy where we get to draft one or the other to our club and he brings “what we know” are his accomplishments. Crosby brings three Cups. McDavid brings brilliant talent. For my club I prefer the three Cups.

Just stop. Your posts are ridiculous.

Drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee 3 cups. Just like in a redraft, if given the choice between Gretzky and Henri Richard, drafting Henri Richard wouldn't guarantee 11 cups.

There have been 502 posts in this thread so far and every single poster in this thread understands this extremely basic and obvious logic, except for you.

 

[bobholly39]

it amuses me how Crosby fans have become the literal embodiment of the Toews making that Centennial list over Malkin thing that probably really annoyed them and don't see the irony in it

There are some parallels yes - but it's also different.

Toews and Malkin are different tiers players. Crosby and McDavid are extremely comparable. Both were scoring at similar levels above competition in their prime and dominating the league.

Arguing Toews over Kopitar or Bergeron would be more similar to Crosby vs McDavid, regardless of where you land in those comparisons. Toews over Malkin would be more akin to arguing Sakic over McDavid or Crosby, two completely ridiculous takes.

 

[daver]

If you want to establish a strategy of run and gun to try to outscore your opponents, you draft McDavid.

If you want other options, you take Crosby. He is the better all around player, the more versatile offensively, and his playing style allows him to take less talented wingers on his line which allows for more offensive depth.

Crosby won the 2009 Cup because he and Malkin did their impression of McDrai but without having to be teamed up at ES.

Crosby won the Cup in 2016 because he played a great 2-way, puck possession game with a borderline Top 6 winger and an AHL callup on his line. When the moment or game called for it, he stepped up offensively.

Crosby won the Cup in 2017 by being the best offensive player despite yet another concussion.

 

[Fatass]

Just stop. Your posts are ridiculous.

Drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee 3 cups. Just like in a redraft, if given the choice between Gretzky and Henri Richard, drafting Henri Richard wouldn't guarantee 11 cups.

There have been 502 posts in this thread so far and every single poster in this thread understands this extremely basic and obvious logic, except for you.

It’s a fantasy thread dreamed up by the OP. Your interpretation of the OP’s intent is different than mine. There are more posters choosing Crosby over McDavid. Leading a club to championships is important, as pointed out in the OP’s first post. If your view is this thread is about which player between the two has had the better career the OP covered that in his first post, as I pointed out. He clearly says McDavid has the better career numbers when the players are compared. Then the OP mentions intangibles, like championships as a way to give Crosby a chance to be selected. I don’t understand why you get upset over this. It’s a fantasy and for fun.
Henry Richard won 10 Cups (might be 11?). If he was part of this fantasy I’d want him on the team I cheer for and the 10 Cups.

 

[bobholly39]

It’s a fantasy thread dreamed up by the OP. Your interpretation of the OP’s intent is different than mine. There are more posters choosing Crosby over McDavid. Leading a club to championships is important, as pointed out in the OP’s first post. If your view is this thread is about which player between the two has had the better career the OP covered that in his first post, as I pointed out. He clearly says McDavid has the better career numbers when the players are compared. Then the OP mentions intangibles, like championships as a way to give Crosby a chance to be selected. I don’t understand why you get upset over this. It’s a fantasy and for fun.
Henry Richard won 10 Cups (might be 11?). If he was part of this fantasy I’d want him on the team I cheer for and the 10 Cups.

And you don't think I'm more suited to interpret the OP's intent than you are?

 

[Peat]

1.89 PPG over the last two postseasons. If you think that’s a “mystery box” because his team didn’t win the magic trophy that magically transforms players from bad to good and good to great then I think you just lack imagination.

Oddly enough, that's exactly how I feel about point who just slap points totals down on the table and call it a day.

Here's the thing about points totals -

I believe they're heavily team influenced too. People say you can't judge people simply on cups, or 5v5 goal differentials, because they're very heavily team dependent, and that's right... but so are points totals.

Let's run an example

Connor McDavid's 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 playoffs - 3.166. Nice, superelite.

But break it down into 335:31 minutes with Draisaitl and 252:06 minutes without and you get...

4.29 p/60 with Draisaitl
1.666 p/60 without

Heavily team influenced, no?

Which seems to suggest three logical conclusions

1) They shouldn't be treated as a trump argument of player quality without considering the rest of the guys there

2) We can't assume that McDavid on another team would have the same points totals and individual hardware he's managed - what if that team doesn't have a Draisaitl? What if that team asks him to lift other players and rarely plays Draisaitl there?

3) The whole "McDavid is giving elite performance in the playoffs and is unfortunate to have a crap team around him" argument has a hole because he is very ordinary without Draisaitl. Which of course might have something to do with his linemates - but it's not cut and dried as a simple argument.

All reasons why I don't see the production numbers as conclusive proof that McDavid is better than Crosby, and therefore go with the guy who I know can be the leader of a cup winning team rather than the guy who's a mystery box there.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Clearly the winner..

 

[pi314]

Can I just say that OP this is a good poll?

21 pages of comments. Close vote.

They aren't usually like that.

 

[authentic]

Oddly enough, that's exactly how I feel about point who just slap points totals down on the table and call it a day.

Here's the thing about points totals -

I believe they're heavily team influenced too. People say you can't judge people simply on cups, or 5v5 goal differentials, because they're very heavily team dependent, and that's right... but so are points totals.

Let's run an example

Connor McDavid's 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 playoffs - 3.166. Nice, superelite.

But break it down into 335:31 minutes with Draisaitl and 252:06 minutes without and you get...

4.29 p/60 with Draisaitl
1.666 p/60 without

Heavily team influenced, no?

Which seems to suggest three logical conclusions

1) They shouldn't be treated as a trump argument of player quality without considering the rest of the guys there

2) We can't assume that McDavid on another team would have the same points totals and individual hardware he's managed - what if that team doesn't have a Draisaitl? What if that team asks him to lift other players and rarely plays Draisaitl there?

3) The whole "McDavid is giving elite performance in the playoffs and is unfortunate to have a crap team around him" argument has a hole because he is very ordinary without Draisaitl. Which of course might have something to do with his linemates - but it's not cut and dried as a simple argument.

All reasons why I don't see the production numbers as conclusive proof that McDavid is better than Crosby, and therefore go with the guy who I know can be the leader of a cup winning team rather than the guy who's a mystery box there.

That's a huge difference with and without Draisaitl.

 

[Peat]

That's a huge difference with and without Draisaitl.

Ayup.

And I don't want to bury him for it. Being a Penguins fan means I've seen firsthand that just being generational doesn't mean it's an easy ride being the focus of opposition attention with weak wingers in the playoffs.

But that's the point. Everything is situational, there's always another layer of knowledge deeper down, and you can give reasons for why everything goes right or wrong. The moment you start it for one thing, you should start it for everything.

Which is why so many of us just go for the easy "don't have to hypothesise, it happened" answers here. Fair enough to everyone who goes that way on McDavid's higher scoring, I go that way with Sid's higher cup count.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Feel like Crosby has been a dominant player for 1000 years like since the medieval times....

 

[authentic]

Ayup.

And I don't want to bury him for it. Being a Penguins fan means I've seen firsthand that just being generational doesn't mean it's an easy ride being the focus of opposition attention with weak wingers in the playoffs.

But that's the point. Everything is situational, there's always another layer of knowledge deeper down, and you can give reasons for why everything goes right or wrong. The moment you start it for one thing, you should start it for everything.

Which is why so many of us just go for the easy "don't have to hypothesise, it happened" answers here. Fair enough to everyone who goes that way on McDavid's higher scoring, I go that way with Sid's higher cup count.

Yeah I think considering the rise in scoring levels and then imagining peak Crosby with Draisaitl as a winger, or Malkin back then if he played with Crosby a lot more than just the powerplay it's not crazy to believe he scores a similar amount of points. Even if not it would close enough you'd be splitting hairs between the two and Crosby was almost undeniably the better two-way player and leader, albeit maybe not by much or anything that could be decided by the amount of Cups their teams have won.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Just stop. Your posts are ridiculous.

Drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee 3 cups. Just like in a redraft, if given the choice between Gretzky and Henri Richard, drafting Henri Richard wouldn't guarantee 11 cups.

There have been 502 posts in this thread so far and every single poster in this thread understands this extremely basic and obvious logic, except for you.

This is why I feel Pat Maroon is one of the league’s best, but few take me seriously. Look, if championships matter- dude has ‘em like few others. Champ.

 

[lawrence]

This thread isn’t about those players. And it’s not about IMO which player is better. The topic of this fantasy is who do we draft “knowing what we know” now between Crosby or McDavid? The OP mentions this in his post. He talks about McDavid as the better player but that Crosby brings winning championships.

“Age to age - McDavid is having the better career so far. I think that's almost unquestionable. But a redraft introduces a few dynamics worth considering that may make Crosby the more attractive option:
Winning Pedigree. Crosby has an insane winning pedigree in his career, that has followed him at every level, juniors, NHL playoffs”

Crosby leads his team (we know this now) to three Cups. McDavid (we know now) has so far led his team to no Cups. In my view this thread isn’t about which player is better or has had the better individual career. It’s a fantasy where we get to draft one or the other to our club and he brings “what we know” are his accomplishments. Crosby brings three Cups. McDavid brings brilliant talent. For my club I prefer the three Cups.

Crosby is one of my favorite players. However lets not ignore the fact he was on the Pittsburgh Penguins much better built team than the Oilers of the past 5 years.

 

[MOGlLNY]

McDavid will win a couple before it's over. I think I'd take McDavid but man Sid is such a f***ing winner, it's close.

Only thing Sid hasn't won in his hockey career was a Mem Cup and he went head to head with maybe the best Junior team of all time.

 

[LightningStorm]

This is why I feel Pat Maroon is one of the league’s best, but few take me seriously. Look, if championships matter- dude has ‘em like few others. Champ.

I mean, look at my Bolts. Got swept as the PT winners, but then his magic championship aura from the Blues was what turned everything around and led to us winning B2B cups. Feel free to ignore Hedman, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, and McDonagh. It was all Maroon and the magic from his cup aura he first got in 2019.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby won the Cup in 2016 because he played a great 2-way, puck possession game...

No he didn't. Crosby was getting scored on a lot in 2016, and he never shut anyone down. Nor did he PK. And his offensive zone starts were 66% - similar to the most offensively oriented players in the entire NHL.

Crosby was just plain not very good in the 2016 playoffs - scoring at a 21 goal / 65 point pace as a minus player.

The Pens had a great 3rd line that was scoring like a first line and that was the difference maker.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I mean, look at my Bolts. Got swept as the PT winners, but then his magic championship aura from the Blues was what turned everything around and led to us winning B2B cups. Feel free to ignore Hedman, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, and McDonagh. It was all Maroon and the magic from his cup aura he first got in 2019.

You might say he led your team. Watch him in practice, its the little things he does. Hedman et al were afraid to disappoint fat pat and it showed in the playoffs.

 

[Fig]

I mean, look at my Bolts. Got swept as the PT winners, but then his magic championship aura from the Blues was what turned everything around and led to us winning B2B cups. Feel free to ignore Hedman, Vasilevskiy, Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, and McDonagh. It was all Maroon and the magic from his cup aura he first got in 2019.

Are you saying those Tampa cup wins were big rigged?

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

McDavid is a reel but Crosby is far more complete - harder down low and adaptable versus just being really really fast.

I hope I don’t have to say what everyone is thinking but Golden Goal - fluky but it still crossed the line and two Conns (Philly should have got the first).

Do you like this supermodel, or that one? That’s what this is. Crosby by a nose.

I don't want to get too far into the debate. But McDavid has a lot more tools than just that.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Oddly enough, that's exactly how I feel about point who just slap points totals down on the table and call it a day.

Here's the thing about points totals -

I believe they're heavily team influenced too. People say you can't judge people simply on cups, or 5v5 goal differentials, because they're very heavily team dependent, and that's right... but so are points totals.

Let's run an example

Connor McDavid's 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 playoffs - 3.166. Nice, superelite.

But break it down into 335:31 minutes with Draisaitl and 252:06 minutes without and you get...

4.29 p/60 with Draisaitl
1.666 p/60 without

Heavily team influenced, no?

Which seems to suggest three logical conclusions

1) They shouldn't be treated as a trump argument of player quality without considering the rest of the guys there

2) We can't assume that McDavid on another team would have the same points totals and individual hardware he's managed - what if that team doesn't have a Draisaitl? What if that team asks him to lift other players and rarely plays Draisaitl there?

3) The whole "McDavid is giving elite performance in the playoffs and is unfortunate to have a crap team around him" argument has a hole because he is very ordinary without Draisaitl. Which of course might have something to do with his linemates - but it's not cut and dried as a simple argument.

All reasons why I don't see the production numbers as conclusive proof that McDavid is better than Crosby, and therefore go with the guy who I know can be the leader of a cup winning team rather than the guy who's a mystery box there.

That stat is really damming actually. And is the reason the Oilers haven't advanced further.

Crosby is one of my favorite players. However lets not ignore the fact he was on the Pittsburgh Penguins much better built team than the Oilers of the past 5 years.

The 09 Penguins were not better than the Oilers the last two years aside from Crosby and Malkin

 

[bambamcam4ever]

No he didn't. Crosby was getting scored on a lot in 2016, and he never shut anyone down. Nor did he PK. And his offensive zone starts were 66% - similar to the most offensively oriented players in the entire NHL.

Crosby was just plain not very good in the 2016 playoffs - scoring at a 21 goal / 65 point pace as a minus player.

The Pens had a great 3rd line that was scoring like a first line and that was the difference maker.

And the reason the Penguins were able to assemble such a good 3rd line was because they played their first line center with two terrible playoff performers as wingers.