Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[Filthy Dangles]

No he didn't. Crosby was getting scored on a lot in 2016, and he never shut anyone down. Nor did he PK. And his offensive zone starts were 66% - similar to the most offensively oriented players in the entire NHL.

Crosby was just plain not very good in the 2016 playoffs - scoring at a 21 goal / 65 point pace as a minus player.

The Pens had a great 3rd line that was scoring like a first line and that was the difference maker.

Lies....

56% zone starts at even strength.

If you include all situations yes he was 66, but Kessel for example, had a 78.9% Ozone start that playoff run in all situations.

Malkin 73% zone starts at ES, 80% in all situations...

7 pitsburg forwards had had a higher OZS% at EV than Crosby in that year's playoff run. For a star offensive player, that's actually very neutral or even low offensive usage.

I hate strongly dislike the MF too but damn he lives rent free...where you gotta lie like this to try and make a point

 

[Regal]

Lies....

56% zone starts at even strength.

If you include all situations yes he was 66, but Kessel for example, had a 78.9% Ozone start that playoff run in all situations.

Malkin 73% zone starts at ES, 80% in all situations...

7 pitsburg forwards had had a higher OZS% at EV than Crosby in that year's playoff run. For a star offensive player, that's actually very neutral or even low offensive usage.

I hate the MF too but damn he lives rent free...where you gotta lie like this to try and make a point

Yea, the Pens were a great possession team that playoffs so they naturally had a high offensive zone start percentage at ES of 54.5%. Cullen line was buried, Crosby was pretty neutral and Malkin and Kessel lines got cushy starts.

The Pens strength was in the ability to roll 3 scoring lines and there’s no chance that 3rd line is as successful as they were if they were getting Crosby’s deployment. Crosby, as usual, had strong possession numbers that playoffs, and while not a matchup center, generally took the brunt of the best competition among the top 3 lines, allowing the third line to thrive and Malkin’s line to some degree as well. This is something MJ continually fails to give him credit for, because the focus tends to always be on his goals against and production.

The reality is that variance can be a bitch and Crosby generally played well but his PDO was awful. Now, I think it’s fair to criticize him for not producing enough because that’s what he’s mostly paid to do, and I believe his standing in the league and not having won the Conn Smythe the first time helped him in that voting. It’s also fair to argue against the narrative that he was a great defensive player that run, because statistically in terms of expected goals and chances, he was pretty average. But I also think it’s absurd to argue that he was a liability due to the small sample size of a few extra goals against in front a poor save percentage or that he played awful in that run. That’s where MJ seems to take a fair contrarian view point but then run too far in the opposite direction.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lies....

56% zone starts at even strength.

If you include all situations yes he was 66, but Kessel for example, had a 78.9% Ozone start that playoff run in all situations.

Malkin 73% zone starts at ES, 80% in all situations...

7 pitsburg forwards had had a higher OZS% at EV than Crosby in that year's playoff run. For a star offensive player, that's actually very neutral or even low offensive usage.

I hate strongly dislike the MF too but damn he lives rent free...where you gotta lie like this to try and make a point

I accurately stated the zone starts as listed in hockey reference. I don't know why you think it's more indicative to restrict it to a mere part of the story (even strength).

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is par for the course for raging Crosby fans. Apparently accurately posting Crosby's actual defensive statistics is regarded as too cruel. It's unpleasant for them because it destroys their false narrative.

I got the same reaction back when I accurately posted Crosby's on-ice goals against per 60 (which are quite close to Ovechkin's and nowhere near Bergeron's or Datsyuk's or Kopitar's). A couple dozen posters lobbed insults and told me I was hateful. Crosby fans were super angry that accurate data was posted about Sidney Crosby. It was very emotional for them.

So I guess now zone starts are unfair to list for Sid even though posters reference them all the time for all sorts of players and nobody had a problem with it until it disrupted the Crosby narrative.

 

[DearDiary]

This is par for the course for raging Crosby fans. Apparently accurately posting Crosby's actual defensive statistics is regarded as too cruel. It's unpleasant for them because it destroys their false narrative.

I got the same reaction back when I accurately posted Crosby's on-ice goals against per 60 (which are quite close to Ovechkin's and nowhere near Bergeron's or Datsyuk's or Kopitar's). A couple dozen posters lobbed insults and told me I was hateful. Crosby fans were super angry that accurate data was posted about Sidney Crosby. It was very emotional for them.

So I guess now zone starts are unfair to list for Sid even though posters reference them all the time for all sorts of players and nobody had a problem with it until it disrupted the Crosby narrative.

Nobody includes the powerplay in zone starts. The only reason zone starts are even relevant is for 5on5

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yea, the Pens were a great possession team that playoffs so they naturally had a high offensive zone start percentage at ES of 54.5%. Cullen line was buried, Crosby was pretty neutral and Malkin and Kessel lines got cushy starts.

The Pens strength was in the ability to roll 3 scoring lines and there’s no chance that 3rd line is as successful as they were if they were getting Crosby’s deployment. Crosby, as usual, had strong possession numbers that playoffs, and while not a matchup center, generally took the brunt of the best competition among the top 3 lines, allowing the third line to thrive and Malkin’s line to some degree as well. This is something MJ continually fails to give him credit for, because the focus tends to always be on his goals against and production.

Opponents generally aren't pulling their best defensive players because it's a Malkin offensive zone start vs a Crosby one. It's almost always been mutually beneficial for Crosby and Malkin in that regard - they generally split the toughest match-ups.

The one time an opposing team appeared to focus their best players on Crosby (Detroit in the finals) - Crosby fans have referenced it for over a decade now as if it's a huge factor.

Ovechkin's entire career has been that way.

He's never had a second line that was remotely the threat his line was. Funny, I've never heard a Crosby fan mention that. Not even once.

Nobody includes the powerplay in zone starts. The only reason zone starts are even relevant is for 5on5

The guy you're defending did ES, not 5v5. No idea why he chose ES over 5v5.

I disagree anyway. Powerplay/PK deployment is a significant part of the story for how a player is used. It's calculated precisely the same way for every player. I get why Crosby fans would want to ignore it: Sidney Crosby doesn't kill penalties. You want to pretend that's a non-factor. But in reality it is a factor. It's not suddenly some unfair thing now that it doesn't work for the desired Crosby narrative.

 

[wetcoast]

Man I thought Crosby was being compared to McDavid here...........Rent Free it seems.

Also as an interesting side note some guy from Detroit named Datsyuk who won 3 Selke's in a row also played very little on the PK in his entire career.

 

[Haatley]

One is a winner who played in a lower scoring era through some pretty serious injuries.

One is a loser who played for a loser franchise.

Crosby. Easy team success > individual success