Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[Tad Mikowsky]

Lemieux won his championships on a back he couldn't even tie his own skates with and led canada to an Olympic gold in 2002. So I'm not too sure about that

Gretzky’s won more. He knows how to WIN more than Lemieux. After all, if you played the game you would know that’s all that matters.

 

[blundluntman]

Yes? The 16-17 Oilers, and the last two years McDavid/Draisaitl had a better team around them than the 09 Penguins.

Are you joking? I really can't tell.

In 09, the Penguins were carried by Malkin's all time great post-season, not Crosby's (who only had 3 points in the series against Detroit btw). You can't use that as an example of Crosby carrying the team when he wasn't even the best player on his team in their cup run. Btw, McDavid had a better postseason last year than Crosby and outproduced him in 3 rounds (he had a +15 also so you can't use the "he only racks up points" argument).

I already explained how horrendous the Oilers' goaltending was in 2023, Skinner had a .883 vs Fleury's .908 (you tried to blame it on cherrypicking but I disproved that too, which you ignored) which is clearly the reason why they lost, considering their offense was firing on all cylinders. And I also asked people how Crosby on the 2022 Oilers would beat the 2022 Avs, which once again, nobody addressed.

Your arguments are completely based on Extrapolations and ignore concrete facts and important contextualization just to elevate Crosby since his regular season accomplishments pale in comparison to McDavid. The two are much closer than you think, this isn't some clear cut landslide because of team accomplishments.

 

[Skolman]

Have you watched a Crosby game whatsoever? Lol dude stop.

Everyone knows Crosby's game is about mucking and grinding it out in the corners, below the net. The best lower body strength in the league, and would hardly ever lose board battles. Still is probably the best at it.

I'm not sure why exactly it's controversial to suggest that Zdeno Chara is stronger than Sidney Crosby...

Crosby fan boys are quite something.

 

[PensandCaps]

I'm not sure exactly why it's controversial to suggest that Zdeno Chara is stronger than Sidney Crosby..

Crosby fan boys are quite something.

Yah, that's what I said, that Crosby isn't stronger than Chara.

So since Crosby isn't stronger than Chara, (no one is) that suddenly makes his game finesse? And that he isn't the best player down low of his era? What sense does that make? Because that's what he was saying. Not that he was just not as strong as Chara. Read.

 

[Skolman]

Yah, that's what I said, that Crosby isn't stronger than Chara.

So since Crosby isn't stronger than Chara, (no one is) that suddenly makes his game finesse? And that he isn't the best player down low of his era? What sense does that make? Because that's what he was saying. Not that he was just not as strong as Chara. Read.

Where did you state this? In a previous post?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Funny you ask, I went back and looked at all the goals scored against the Oilers by VGK because of such a situation. Guess what I found?

2 goals were scored because of an offensive zone turnover.

1 goal was scored bc they were cheating up ice (McDavid wasn't even on the ice for that goal)

17 were scored when that wasn't the case.

Any more questions?

Vs LA:
Gm2: goal 1 & 2
Gm3: goal 1
Gm5: arguably goal 1 as Draisaitl was cherrypicking and led to a failed out

Vs LV:
Gm2: goal 1
Gm 3: arguably goal 3 as Foegele pressuring the point too aggressively and not getting it led directly to Whitecloud finding an open lane to the net
Gm 6: goal 2

 

[Oleksiak]

Crosby and it's not even close. I'll take multiple Cups over a gutless flopper who still refuses to backcheck or play like a man.

 

[Raistlin]

Crosby is a grinder that scores like a generational player. Those are the types that win championships. What do you know? Crosby wins wherever he goes, because he was dominant everywhere on the ice. Marcel Dionne is the more prolific scorer, but Yzerman is the better player. Why? Cups.

 

[LightningStorm]

For those who keep bringing up Crosby's 3 cups, let me refresh your memory again: in 2015, several people on this board believed McDavid would be justified in refusing to play for the Oilers. This forum HATED the Oilers winning the lottery that season knowing that if any organization could waste their window with a once in a lifetime superstar like McDavid, it was Edmonton. How quickly some have forgotten.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

For those who keep bringing up Crosby's 3 cups, let me refresh your memory again: in 2015, several people on this board believed McDavid would be justified in refusing to play for the Oilers. This forum HATED the Oilers winning the lottery that season knowing that if any organization could waste their window with a once in a lifetime superstar like McDavid, it was Edmonton. How quickly some have forgotten.

No, it was because the Oilers had already won so many lotteries

 

[Oleksiak]

For those who keep bringing up Crosby's 3 cups, let me refresh your memory again: in 2015, several people on this board believed McDavid would be justified in refusing to play for the Oilers. This forum HATED the Oilers winning the lottery that season knowing that if any organization could waste their window with a once in a lifetime superstar like McDavid, it was Edmonton. How quickly some have forgotten.

Turns out a locker room cancer like McDiver is a perfect fit in Edmonton.

 

[LightningStorm]

No, it was because the Oilers had already won so many lotteries

Both those things can be (and are) true at once.

 

[Peat]

You never answered my question about how Crosby would help the Oilers beat the Avs and how he'd win with a goalie posting a .883 sv%. It's almost like you just like to hear yourself talk and completely ignore any counterarguments

Penguins beat the 4th placed Caps with a 87.78 save percentage in 08-09 in the second round, which seems quite close to the challenge the Oilers faced in beating the 2nd place Avalanche with an 87.21 save percentage.

Now I never saw it but I can look at the numbers.

The Penguins received very little help from their bottom six. They produced a 40% goal differential at 5v5 and had a 73.7% PK with no shorties (marginally lower than the 75% Edmonton posted against Colorado).

The single biggest thing going for the Penguins was Sidney Crosby going +5 through the 7 game series which he mostly did with Chris Kunitz and Bill Guerin.

By comparison Connor McDavid comes out of the Avalanche series with a -2 at 5v5 despite playing over half his minutes with Draisaitl.

In both cases, the results aren't that far from goals are expected.

Sid is also on ice for 8 PP goals in 7 games rather than 2 in 4.

Swap those 2 performances and the the Oilers probably beat the Avalanche.

Also while I'm not sure he'd win with a goalie posting an .883, he did win with MAF's -.238 below expected an hour. Only one other team has been below that since according to Moneypuck - or even just below negative iirc - and that's Colorado. So Crosby has gone as good a shot as anyone at doing it.

 

[bobholly39]

If WINNING is all that matters according to those who PLAY THE GAME, that means that Gretzky>Lemieux because he knows how to WIN more.

You're trying to say something but it's not a very valid comparison.

Gretzky > Lemieux is clear, Crosby and McDavid are closer. Gretzky has both playoff and regular season success above Lemieux. For now, Crosby is very clearly ahead of McDavid for playoffs.

You never answered my question about how Crosby would help the Oilers beat the Avs and how he'd win with a goalie posting a .883 sv%. It's almost like you just like to hear yourself talk and completely ignore any counterarguments

It's not about a time machine experiement where if you drop Crosby exactly as is into a playoff round instead of McDavid he'll magically do better or make his goalie play better.

I think you have to look at it differently. Crosby has been seen and praised as a strong leader his whole career. Helps establish a winning culture on teams he plays, leads by example, etc, and it generally leads to winning.

I think if Crosby was drafted in Edmonton instead of McDavid, it's very possible they would have won more, or qualified for playoffs more often, or won a cup or two by now. But it's all the in the intangibles, so it's hard to say for sure.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Have you watched a Crosby game whatsoever? Lol dude stop.

Everyone knows Crosby's game is about mucking and grinding it out in the corners, below the net. The best lower body strength in the league, and would hardly ever lose board battles. Still is probably the best at it.

The possibility that Crosby has a stronger lower body than Chara or Ovechkin is precisely zero.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Prime Crosby seemed to elevate no name wingers with more success 5 on 5 imo than McDavid.

Then it should be no problem for you to demonstrate this with statistics. But you won't, because you can't.

Of course that won't stop dozens of Crosby fans from claiming it over and over again.

Crosby never needed Malkin on his wing either, strictly playing together on the powerplay only.

That is false. Malkin and Crosby have combined for hundreds of ES points over the years. In 2008-2009 alone they combined for 50+ points - more than half of Sid's offensive output involved Malkin that season.

 

[Video Nasty]

Marcel Dionne is the more prolific scorer, but Yzerman is the better player. Why? Cups.

I’m sure having core players like Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, and Lidstrom join the team in 1990-1991 and 1991-1992, as well as Osgood/Vernon/Fetisov, along the way, and Larionov, Murphy, Shanahan, and every other piece that helped give Detroit the depth needed to compete for and win Cups.

Oh, I’m also sure Bowman coming in had something to do with it as well.

But yeah, it was all down to Yzerman sacrificing his offensive game to become a better two way player and simply being a winner.

Yet it took him until his 14th season to lift the Cup.

It’s almost as if every all-time player ever had an excellent team around them. How curious.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Vs LA:
Gm2: goal 1 & 2
Gm3: goal 1
Gm5: arguably goal 1 as Draisaitl was cherrypicking and led to a failed out

Vs LV:
Gm2: goal 1
Gm 3: arguably goal 3 as Foegele pressuring the point too aggressively and not getting it led directly to Whitecloud finding an open lane to the net
Gm 6: goal 2

Crosby was the 2nd worst defensive player on his team at ES in 2016 and 2017 playoffs, I'm pretty sure I can cherry pick stats to find his faults on goals

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Penguins beat the 4th placed Caps with a 87.78 save percentage in 08-09 in the second round, which seems quite close to the challenge the Oilers faced in beating the 2nd place Avalanche with an 87.21 save percentage.

Now I never saw it but I can look at the numbers.

The Penguins received very little help from their bottom six. They produced a 40% goal differential at 5v5 and had a 73.7% PK with no shorties (marginally lower than the 75% Edmonton posted against Colorado).

The single biggest thing going for the Penguins was Sidney Crosby going +5 through the 7 game series which he mostly did with Chris Kunitz and Bill Guerin.

By comparison Connor McDavid comes out of the Avalanche series with a -2 at 5v5 despite playing over half his minutes with Draisaitl.

In both cases, the results aren't that far from goals are expected.

Sid is also on ice for 8 PP goals in 7 games rather than 2 in 4.

Swap those 2 performances and the the Oilers probably beat the Avalanche.

Also while I'm not sure he'd win with a goalie posting an .883, he did win with MAF's -.238 below expected an hour. Only one other team has been below that since according to Moneypuck - or even just below negative iirc - and that's Colorado. So Crosby has gone as good a shot as anyone at doing it.

Crosby had a -2 goal differential at ES during the 2016 playoffs, I doubt he makes a difference against the Avs

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The possibility that Crosby has a stronger lower body than Chara or Ovechkin is precisely zero.

OV sucks along the walls for his size MJ

 

[6ix]

Then it should be no problem for you to demonstrate this with statistics. But you won't, because you can't.

Of course that won't stop dozens of Crosby fans from claiming it over and over again.



That is false. Malkin and Crosby have combined for hundreds of ES points over the years. In 2008-2009 alone they combined for 50+ points - more than half of Sid's offensive output involved Malkin that season.

No, I just don’t really care to deep dive in the stats, it’s the summer. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands maybe you can do the honours. I never seen a player elevate non star wingers as much as prime Crosby.

 

[pi314]

You know there's this thing called middle ground that exists, have you heard of that before? Sure Crosby is an instrumental and irreplaceable piece of the team. That doesn't mean he can will every single team to victory. Where did I say he was lucky? My point is that winning requires a whole team. This myth that Crosby is a selke level player (especially in his younger years) is completely untrue. I give him credit for being a big part of the reason he won in 2009, but he wasn't even the best forward on his team that year, nor was he any better at backchecking than McDavid. Believe it or not, playing on a good team actually does make a difference. In 2016-17, their forward depth was extremely good (they literally had Phil Kessel on their 3rd line), they had conn smythe-worthy performances from Matt Murray and had a decent enough defensive core to win games in a way Edmonton doesn't. Crosby is great and so were the teams he played on. Two things can be true at the same time.

Also, this narrative that McDavid is a floater and doesn't backcheck is crap and you must not watch him play. He's been much better as a 200 ft player. He backchecks and even kills penalties. You compare him to an offensively minded player that turns the puck over constantly but his +/- and performances say otherwise. He's clearly a net positive and I've watched him on plenty of occasions be the only reason Edmonton was still in some of the playoff games where Edmonton's goalies posted sub .900 sv%s. If you think McDavid is to blame for Skinner's .883 save percentage, I really don't know what to tell you. Even Crosby couldn't will his teams to victory when MA Fleury was shitting the bed in the early 2010s.

These false dichotomous narratives are very hard to take seriously when you actually watch hockey games and don't buy into biased opinions.

Also, you didn't answer my question, does Crosby win on this current Oilers team? If the results are the same when circumstances are changed, this "Crosby is a winner" argument is proven to be null and void.

I actually agree with what most of you said.

For me, McDavid is already top 10 all time.

It's just people argue points as if it explains everything.

Firstly, the era is hiring scoring. Secondly, we never saw Crosby's prime because of a cheap shot.

Most importantly, all that truly matters is a player's net.

If a guy scores 100 points and 80 points happen against him, he's doing less than a guy who scores 80 points and limits the other team to 50.

Points don't explain everything.

McDavid's complete game is still lacking, and that's at least part of the reason they haven't won.

He turns the puck over. In the playoffs. In OT.



That's not "the team's fault".

 

[Video Nasty]

I actually agree with what most of you said.

For me, McDavid is already top 10 all time.

It's just people argue points as if it explains everything.

Firstly, the era is hiring scoring. Secondly, we never saw Crosby's prime because of a cheap shot.

Most importantly, all that truly matters is a player's net.

If a guy scores 100 points and 80 points happen against him, he's doing less than a guy who scores 80 points and limits the other team to 50.

Points don't explain everything.

McDavid's complete game is still lacking, and that's at least part of the reason they haven't won.

He turns the puck over. In the playoffs. In OT.



That's not "the team's fault".

A higher scoring era doesn’t explain a guy winning five Art Rosses and finishing runner up two other times over the past seven years or winning by 21 points (36 points ahead of the closest non-teammate) in a 56 game season or by 28 points (40 points ahead of the closest non-teammate) in a “normal” 82 game season.

 

[Beau Knows]

As a Penguins fan, Crosby.

We won 3 Cups with him, no guarantee we match or equal that with McDavid.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Firstly, the era is hiring scoring. Secondly, we never saw Crosby's prime because of a cheap shot.

Again with the falsehoods. There was no cheap shot.

Crosby had poor on-ice awareness and turned abruptly while not looking where he was going into another player who was skating in a straight line.