JVR-Bozak-Marner or JVR-Bozak-Brown ?

[thewave]

Hyman Matthews Brown
Leivo Kadri Komarov
Marleau Nylander Marner
Martin Fehr Kappy
Moore, Goat

Looks like and NHL team to me.

 

[zeke]

yeah but so is Matthews-Kadri. It's not like Kadri can't be a 70 point elite #2, because he's already an elite #2. He can drive offence at a similar level to the big 3, maybe just a small notch below.

I love Kadri, but I'm more interested in having a Crosby-Malkin, Yzerman-Federov, Sakic-Forsberg type 1-2 punch up the middle.

 

[Nithoniniel]

yeah but so is Matthews-Kadri. It's not like Kadri can't be a 70 point elite #2, because he's already an elite #2. He can drive offence at a similar level to the big 3, maybe just a small notch below.

Kadri just had the best year of his career, where he put up 60 points with some percentages that he's not likely to maintain. He's not going to be a 70 point guy. He's likely to be a 55-60 point guy.

He's one of the guys I want us to hang on to, for sure though. Having him on a third line is important for us to have that almost unique forward depth that I think will be the foundation of our success.

 

[Puckstuff]

I love Kadri, but I'm more interested in having a Crosby-Malkin, Yzerman-Federov, Sakic-Forsberg type 1-2 punch up the middle.

I would rather a Malkin-Bergeron 1-2 punch. Kadri is still years ahead of any of the big 3 defensively, except Matthews who is closing the gap. Kadri was our 2nd best player last season and was our best defensive player. It will take a couple years for Nylander to get to the level of a Kadri defensively and we are in "win-now" mode. I'm fine with Matthews-Nylander-Kadri down the middle in a year or two. Problem is we're gunning for the cup this year

 

[43Kadri43]

I examined and analyzed the JVR-Bozak-Marner line last game. I paused the game and watched every shift twice. My take on it is this. Marner and JVR are our two worst defensive forwards at this time, and Bozak is our worst defensive center. Marner and JVR need to be broken up. JVR lacks speed, loses a lot of board battles and does turn the puck over. I think it's safe to say he's a finese winger; great in-tight with great finishing; but he's not responsible defensively. Marner on the other hand actually shows signs of being a good defensively responsible winger, he's a different story. He grinds along the boards, make the right play most of the time and makes great decisions. Marner's only downfall is his lack of game experience, and he's getting used to when to take risks or not. I think he had some bad puck luck as well. He's a little bit like Kadri over 3-4 years ago.

That's objectively false. JVR wins a lot of loose-puck battles in all three zones (as per SportLogIQ), and doesn't turn the puck over very much in the defensive zone. The problem is he just lobs the puck out; he's not good at transitioning from the defensive zone into and through the neutral zone.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I would rather a Malkin-Bergeron 1-2 punch. Kadri is still years ahead of any of the big 3 defensively, except Matthews who is closing the gap. Kadri was our 2nd best player last season and was our best defensive player. It will take a couple years for Nylander to get to the level of a Kadri defensively and we are in "win-now" mode. I'm fine with Matthews-Nylander-Kadri down the middle in a year or two. Problem is we're gunning for the cup this year

If we're actually going for the cup this year and think we can pull it off, it's extremely unlikely for this season that JVR and Bozak go anywhere then. Losing either of them would hurt the team this season.

I suspect barring over payment or the team being out of contention both at the very least play out their contracts here.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Hyman Matthews Brown
Leivo Kadri Komarov
Marleau Nylander Marner
Martin Fehr Kappy
Moore, Goat

Looks like and NHL team to me.

Why are the 2 most talented wingers on the 3rd line while Matthews plays with 3rd liners?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Why are the 2 most talented wingers on the 3rd line while Matthews plays with 3rd liners?

Because some people want to dump Bozak and JVR for apparently nothing it seems?

 

[Mess]

Marner is pulling his linemates up offensively with his playmaking creativity, and they seem to pulling Mitch down defensively as he runs around trying to cover for others in his own zone.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Marner is pulling his linemates up offensively with his playmaking creativity, and they seem to pulling Mitch down defensively as he runs around trying to cover for others in his own zone.

I think that's ignoring Marner's flaws, his creativity is amazing but it's also led to some truly bone headed moves that put him way out of position. Marner is great at passing but he also makes a lot of dangerous passes.

 

[The Apologist]

I think that's ignoring Marner's flaws, his creativity is amazing but it's also led to some truly bone headed moves that put him way out of position. Marner is great at passing but he also makes a lot of dangerous passes.

Its also criminally underrating both JVR and Bozak

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Because some people want to dump Bozak and JVR for apparently nothing it seems?

but even if you let both go you put Matthews and Marner together

 

[IPS]

So you stick Matthews and Marner together, as Marner's weaknesses get covered perfectly by Matthews. Giving us a dominant 1st line without leaving us with a weak defensive line somewhere else.

And let Nylander dominate as the 2nd line C.

I have a feeling we're never going to see Marner and Matthews together . If Nylander leaves Matthews line it will be Hyman/Brown flanking him.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Its also criminally underrating both JVR and Bozak

Well I've given up that fight after all they can only produce with elite talent like Kessel or Marner. That season where they produced at their standard levels with PAP just doesn't count for reasons.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If we're actually going for the cup this year and think we can pull it off, it's extremely unlikely for this season that JVR and Bozak go anywhere then. Losing either of them would hurt the team this season.

I suspect barring over payment or the team being out of contention both at the very least play out their contracts here.

See I can understand keeping Bozak for depth at C, but i think they'd be just fine w/o JVR and it would allow some others to step in. Plus we'd obviously get a decent return for JVR, or could parlay the return into something else

 

[ACC1224]

FTFY. Unless you want to show me anything that shows otherwise.

I only take friends and family to games.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner is pulling his linemates up offensively with his playmaking creativity, and they seem to pulling Mitch down defensively as he runs around trying to cover for others in his own zone.

Yep it's been painfully obvious for too long, change is over due

 

[The Apologist]

I only take friends and family to games.

When you get home you should probably rewatch the games then. I would be surprised if there is anything quantitative out there that supports Marner carrying anyone defensively. Much like Bozak, he appears to try and get involved, but often seems to be chasing and out of position. He also appears to cheat waiting for the breakout pass along the blueline quite often, quite like JVR tends to.

Again, I will gladly accept any substantive proof that he is substantially better than his linemates defensively or even that he has significantly increased their production (since they are apparently completely dependant on everyone else while somehow maintaining eerily similar numbers throughout their careers no matter the linemate).

 

[Gallagbi]

Again, I will gladly accept any substantive proof that he is substantially better than his linemates defensively or even that he has significantly increased their production (since they are apparently completely dependant on everyone else while somehow maintaining eerily similar numbers throughout their careers no matter the linemate).

I was interested so I took a look at some numbers.

Bozak saw a surprising spike in production with Marner last year. Not a career season IMO, but he's been a 50 pt (pace) player over his whole career. He was that with Kessel, he was that the season without Kessel. Last year he jumped to a 58 point pace, which is pretty surprising given his reduced role and drop in TOI.

JVR was closer to his Kessel-era numbers, but still slightly ahead (62 vs. 58 pt pace) with the lower TOI last season.

I see a case for saying Marner drove their stats.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I was interested so I took a look at some numbers.

Bozak saw a surprising spike in production with Marner last year. Not a career season IMO, but he's been a 50 pt (pace) player over his whole career. He was that with Kessel, he was that the season without Kessel. Last year he jumped to a 58 point pace, which is pretty surprising given his reduced role and drop in TOI.

JVR was closer to his Kessel-era numbers, but still slightly ahead (62 vs. 58 pt pace) with the lower TOI last season.

I see a case for saying Marner drove their stats.

I don't think that's right, Bozak's best season were with Kessel. The big difference was he stayed healthy. He had 49 points in 58 games with Kessel. He had .61 points per game with PAP/JVR and .7 last season with Marner and JVR.

Marner is helping but he's isn't driving their stats, they also get better match-ups now then they did the years with Kessel and the one without. Marner is helping but he's not helping as much as some people pretend.

 

[zeke]

I was interested so I took a look at some numbers.

Bozak saw a surprising spike in production with Marner last year. Not a career season IMO, but he's been a 50 pt (pace) player over his whole career. He was that with Kessel, he was that the season without Kessel. Last year he jumped to a 58 point pace, which is pretty surprising given his reduced role and drop in TOI.

JVR was closer to his Kessel-era numbers, but still slightly ahead (62 vs. 58 pt pace) with the lower TOI last season.

I see a case for saying Marner drove their stats.

the moderate uptick in all the vets' scoring rates last year was due mostly (entirely?) to the PP exploding, I think.

 

[Gallagbi]

the moderate uptick in all the vets' scoring rates last year was due mostly (entirely?) to the PP exploding, I think.

Definitely a big factor, but they both saw drops in their PP usage and the ES scoring did seem to go up marginally over their Leafs average running some rough numbers.

 

[Gallagbi]

I don't think that's right, Bozak's best season were with Kessel. The big difference was he stayed healthy. He had 49 points in 58 games with Kessel. He had .61 points per game with PAP/JVR and .7 last season with Marner and JVR.

Marner is helping but he's isn't driving their stats, they also get better match-ups now then they did the years with Kessel and the one without. Marner is helping but he's not helping as much as some people pretend.

You're right that he had a better season with Kessel than he did last year, which is why I said it wasn't a career year.

You're also right he had a .61 pace without Kessel in 15-16, that's a 50 point pace. He also had 232 points in 378 Leafs game leading up to that PAP season, a 50 pt pace.

Bozak's best seasons were with Kessel. So were his worst. That 32 point season certainly won't help his averages out much.

You're welcome to run the numbers yourself and I can update anything that isn't accurate.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

You're right that he had a better season with Kessel than he did last year, which is why I said it wasn't a career year.

You're also right he had a .61 pace without Kessel in 15-16, that's a 50 point pace. He also had 232 points in 378 Leafs game leading up to that PAP season, a 50 pt pace.

Bozak's best seasons were with Kessel. So were his worst. That 32 point season certainly won't help his averages out much.

You're welcome to run the numbers yourself and I can update anything that isn't accurate.

You can run the number as much as you like, you're still overestimating Marner's influence. Yes helped but not in as a significant way as you're suggesting. As Zeke pointed out the power play was a factor and so was usage, Bozak wasn't getting the best defenders with Marner. He was when he was with Kessel and at best they were being split with Kadri the season with PAP.

Marner is helping, he's a good player but people are seriously overestimating his impact on Bozak and JVR's numbers.

 

[Puckstuff]

I want to see Marner and Marleau together so bad. They would do damage together. Marleau will finish all of Marner's creative plays. Great finisher on the left. Marleau will teach that line to play some damn defence too.

Matthews-Nylander
Kadri-JVR
Marleau-Marner