Post-Game Talk: Jets lose 5-2

[pucka lucka]

So what exactly has Copp done that he's acting 3rd line center? Copp is barely an NHL player. Tanev is not. Matthias is ok on a 4th line. Armia is ok on a 4th line. Lowry is an ok 4th line player. That's 5 players that are easily replaceable.

We have these young players with high potential that can barely even get a look: Petan, Dano, Connor, Roslovic, Lemieux. PoMo is a hack. He's a dinosaur when it comes to managing players. I am talking about things like his treatment of any young player. Ehlers playing with Thorburn in the bottom 6 for an extended period. Petan and Dano never getting a shot with talent. Like ever. Not even in garbage time or when down. Petan is good enough to run the half wall, but Tanev, Copp, Halischuk, and Thorburn are the players he moves up in a pinch? It's almost as though PoMo has the completely wrong idea about the modern game. Nobody will ever score on PoMo's 4th line. You have a few minutes a game, with usually 2 blackholes and occasionally a gifted player. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just how PoMo likes it.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

Dano & Byfulglien & Perrault to name just a few are needing to be better at these little things called penalties.

Completely agree with you. That said I don't believe Dano brings nearly as much to the table as these guys and is therefore required to not make the same mistakes.

I'm guessing Dano's Penalties per 60 probably put our other guys to shame.

I want him to succeed and despite occasionally being held back by the coaching Staff I think he needs to stop shooting himself in the foot. He's good young player with a unique skill set.

 

[ffh]

Copp mathias lowry armia hendricks are 4th liners.
Dano petan tanev are ahl players.
Wonder why maurice cant put a nhl calibre 3rd line out there.
Players not responding to maurice after 4 years is his fault.
No third line and questionable 4th liners not including lowry after 7 years is chevys fault.

 

[buggs]

I don't speculate on what Bucky might or might not have done if he had played. They were only down by a couple of goals heading into the last two minutes of the second. Then Sedlak banks in a softie from what should be a harmless position. Sure, Toby had a brain cramp but there is no need for that puck to go in. You give up a goal like that as the period is winding down, I can see the rest of the team going, **** this, we're done for tonight. Did he make "great saves" as well? I don't know. I watched most of the game, or at least was listening to it as I made dinner. I don't recall any "holy ****, how did Mason keep that puck out of the net" moments from Beyak. Well, not that Beyak would say holy **** but you get my drift. Has our previous goaltending mediocrity turned good saves, expected saves into something more in our minds? I wonder.

Fair points but honestly Sedlak never should have touched the puck. Your defenseman doesn't cough it up and you don't experience the opportunity let alone the goal. By the end of the second the Jets had given up 27 shots, many of them high quality. Look at it this way, I'll modify one of your statements: You give up an opportunity like that as the period is winding and maybe the goalies says f*** this, I'm done for tonight. This is nothing unique at a Jets game. My whole section (at least those I can hear) are incredibly nervous about the last minute of any given period because we have a remarkable history of giving up goals. But it's always on the goaltender? No, I don't think so. Toby doesn't screw it up and we don't have this discussion. Was the goal soft? Sure, OK, I'll give on that. Defend the zone first.

I sit in 112, the actual attack zone when the Jets are defending in the second period. Those four goals came right in front of me, not on the radio or TV. My perspective allows me to see the play developing and watching. I watched giveaways, 2 on zeroes, defenders (forwards) not taking the body as a player skates down, swinging their stick to try and move the puck (looking at you Ehlers). I watched Myers not take the player moving into the slot on one goal and watched him wander over to do something with Buff on the penalty kill leaving two guys in front of the net on another of the goals. I wonder how disheartened Mason is by the defensive play in front of him? I know I'm disheartened just watching it.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Doesn't matter. Buff needs to be moved when possible
Myers gets to play til trade dead line if he stays mediocre
You package him with something
We need different pieces and it starts with coaching
Don't think this is a Stanley cup team even with a new coach

But things need to change which they haven't much

I think you are 100% correct about roster changes.
A coaching change alone will automatically create some success, but likely will not be sustained just on its own merits.
This team lacked chemistry last year & it appears to be the same early on.
So before someone pipes in what would I do ? ..that's what Chevy gets the big bucks for.

Maurice was the right coach for us at the right time when he was brought on.
If I recall correctly it was open ended & informal when Paul was hired by TNSE.
If this open ended arrangement worked the first time around, why was there this need to sign , seal & deliver Maurice THIS TIME ?
What changed ?
It's not that Maurice suddenly lost whatever coaching ability he had it's more of a situation where
his philosophies are stale & not resonating with this group.

I think this ownership group has made a mistake in extending Maurice & keeping the assistants on.
I think many of us felt that way preseason & now I'm wondering if TNSE is willing to do anything at all to remedy this situation
at ANY point during the season.

I felt confident this team could succeed 80/20 in spite of coaching but now I'm not so sure.
Yes it is early but this start should be concerning to management.
I hope this extension doesn't keep Chevy & TNSE from doing the right thing.

We are not a good team at this time.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

So what exactly has Copp done that he's acting 3rd line center? Copp is barely an NHL player. Tanev is not. Matthias is ok on a 4th line. Armia is ok on a 4th line. Lowry is an ok 4th line player. That's 5 players that are easily replaceable.

We have these young players with high potential that can barely even get a look: Petan, Dano, Connor, Roslovic, Lemieux. PoMo is a hack. He's a dinosaur when it comes to managing players. I am talking about things like his treatment of any young player. Ehlers playing with Thorburn in the bottom 6 for an extended period. Petan and Dano never getting a shot with talent. Like ever. Not even in garbage time or when down. Petan is good enough to run the half wall, but Tanev, Copp, Halischuk, and Thorburn are the players he moves up in a pinch? It's almost as though PoMo has the completely wrong idea about the modern game. Nobody will ever score on PoMo's 4th line. You have a few minutes a game, with usually 2 blackholes and occasionally a gifted player. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just how PoMo likes it.

Copp has been bad. That doesn't really justify moving Petan to that spot especially considering we don't have MP to shelter him.

Roslo time I think.

Also Lowry is much more than a 4th line player. The last couple games without him should have helped illuminate that.

 

[pucka lucka]

I think you are 100% correct about roster changes.
A coaching change alone will automatically create some success, but likely will not be sustained just on its own merits.
This team lacked chemistry last year & it appears to be the same early on.
So before someone pipes in what would I do ? ..that's what Chevy gets the big bucks for.

Maurice was the right coach for us at the right time when he was brought on.
If I recall correctly it was open ended & informal when Paul was hired by TNSE.
If this open ended arrangement worked the first time around, why was there this need to sign , seal & deliver Maurice THIS TIME ?
What changed ?
It's not that Maurice suddenly lost whatever coaching ability he had it's more of a situation where
his philosophies are stale & not resonating with this group.

I think this ownership group has made a mistake in extending Maurice & keeping the assistants on.
I think many of us felt that way preseason & now I'm wondering if TNSE is willing to do anything at all to remedy this situation
at ANY point during the season.

I felt confident this team could succeed 80/20 in spite of coaching but now I'm not so sure.
Yes it is early but this start should be concerning to management.
I hope this extension doesn't keep Chevy & TNSE from doing the right thing.

We are not a good team at this time.

I hated the original signing of Maurice the second it happened . A small market like Winnipeg isn't going to win a cup hiring a retread. They had a huge amount of games on PoMo. He's been exactly what he's always been. This org know that. They chose to keep him. This doesn't seem like an org hell bent on winning. I'm sure they'd love to win, but they either don't know how or have priorities that are higher than winning cups.

 

[GNP]

Buff has NTC in place for a year so that's full stop.
Myers is going to get you what exactly? Based on last year's lengthy injury/other issues and this year's slow start maybe a bag of pucks.

There is the possibility that Roslovic is not quite ready for the big show yet but there's your interim 3rd line C. Lowry is serviceable in a bottom six role though not necessarily as viewed by Maurice. He's a good hockey player just shouldn't see the PP time he does - ideally good fourth line C. Armia was injured but yes, played poorly prior to last night, but perhaps he's coming out of it now and will be as he was last year when most on this board were happy with him. Dano and Petan I get your point on but I have to wonder if it's not usage as deemed by coaching that's holding them back. I doubt we'll ever figure that out.

As Whileee posted, something similar to

Laine Scheifele Ehlers
Connor Little Wheeler
Perreault Roslovic Armia
Copp Lowry Matthias

While it's vague, it seems whatever systems we are trying to employ don't fit the skillset of the players we are having out on the ice. They managed to do well as a team last year when coach let them "run" so the talent is there.

I could back this lineup - you really can't go wrong with it. We need to shake up this hockey team, but I don't think Maurice will buy into it. He likes playing scrubs like Lowry, Tanev, Mathias etc- the kind of guys that "don't win you games."

These guys should only play in a defensive checking role, and on the 4-th line only

 

[pucka lucka]

Copp has been bad. That doesn't really justify moving Petan to that spot especially considering we don't have MP to shelter him.

Roslo time I think.

Also Lowry is much more than a 4th line player. The last couple games without him should have helped illuminate that.

You think Lowry not playing is the reason we're bad? I am pretty sure he played the first 2 games and all of last season.

I am advocating trying some that isn't just shuffling the top 6 and the bottom 6 using the same f***ing players. Who in their right mind just shuffles around players that play 6 minutes a game and thinks something different will happen. It's insanity.

 

[CaptainChef]

Doesn't matter. Buff needs to be moved when possible
Myers gets to play til trade dead line if he stays mediocre
You package him with something
We need different pieces and it starts with coaching
Don't think this is a Stanley cup team even with a new coach

But things need to change which they haven't much

Totally agree. Although we need better systems or better buy-in from the forwards, after coaching (which is 75% of our problems), I lay much of our problems on defense. Buff we pay far too much for what he brings -- needs to be traded this offseason 100%. Myers will likely remain serviceable for the remainder of his contract, when he's healthy that is. Enstrom has really lost it. Kuli may be OK - time will tell. I think Poolman & Nuku should fill some of the void, but we need to get a couple more defensive prospects in trade -- lord knows, beside Buff, we have a lot of forward prospects that should be tradable.

 

[alchemyindex]

Laine Scheifele Ehlers
Connor Little Wheeler
Perreault Roslovic Armia
Copp Lowry Matthias

While it's vague, it seems whatever systems we are trying to employ don't fit the skillset of the players we are having out on the ice. They managed to do well as a team last year when coach let them "run" so the talent is there.

I actually quite like this. I was just about to say that I don't think you can bring Connor up and not have a similar conversation about Roslo. In my Moose experience I'd say he is the more well-rounded player of the two, and having him between Perreault and Armia means he's not being hung out to dry defensively.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

You think Lowry not playing is the reason we're bad? I am pretty sure he played the first 2 games and all of last season.

I am advocating trying some that isn't just shuffling the top 6 and the bottom 6 using the same ****ing players. Who in their right mind just shuffles around players that play 6 minutes a game and thinks something different will happen. It's insanity.

I think not having Lowry was a reason why we were worse yes.

He was damn near the best player through the first 2 shit show games. He was fine last year too considering usage and linemates.

He scores at a 4th line rate 5vs5 that does not make him a 4th liner. If he is your 4C it means you have some excellent depth down the middle.

 

[broinwhyteridge]

Lacklustre effort, pretty disappointing TBH

I had the game on but something more engaging occupied 99% of my attention. If they can't be bothered, there are other things to do.

 

[Narow]

I had the game on but something more engaging occupied 99% of my attention. If they can't be bothered, there are other things to do.

Yeah it sucks that this team is not entertaining to watch. I prefer open hockey with creative offense. Id rather have them score 4-6 goal a game ^^

 

[Aavco Cup]

I had the game on but something more engaging occupied 99% of my attention. If they can't be bothered, there are other things to do.

I watched the first period twice

 

[White Out 902]

Yeah I don't disagree but you or someone else said we deserved to lose all 6 games and my response was

The Edmonton Oilers say hello.

Why?

Because according to the Oilers themselves they had no business winning that game.

BTW you weren't the only one to misinterpret what I said. Someone else posted a bunch of fancy stats for the whole season which had nothing to do with the game we played against them

So, if you asked me, BW, how many games did we outplay the competition?

I'd probably answer maybe 2, probably 1. The Oilers kicked our teeth in first period, irrespective of the lead. The Canucks game was our only real 60 minute effort where we were the better team. Helley stole the game against Carolina.

We aren't playing well at all right now, as a matter of fact we're playing -to a T- the way we've played since we got bounced by Anaheim. We have no team identity whatsoever.

 

[JetsFan815]

You're right. I don't believe you have been overly critical of PoMo in the past. I also think you bring a lot o the table in terms of discussion

My post did not quote a specific poster just a sentiment I have about the GDT and pretty much every thread here at the moment.

I generalized wit the echo chamber comment and if you can't distinguish yourself from the group I'm referring to that's on you. I don't mean to be rude. There are lots of posters here that I disagree with on a variety of topics that I find insightful and interesting when it comes to their evaluations whether I agree or not.

My post was generally framed as a response to a post in the GDT that asked how anyone could still defend "this" I believe it may have been jetsfan815.
.

Feel free to provide a link/quote to such a post if one exists.

 

[pucka lucka]

So, if you asked me, BW, how many games did we outplay the competition?

I'd probably answer maybe 2, probably 1. The Oilers kicked our teeth in first period, irrespective of the lead. The Canucks game was our only real 60 minute effort where we were the better team. Helley stole the game against Carolina.

We aren't playing well at all right now, as a matter of fact we're playing -to a T- the way we've played since we got bounced by Anaheim. We have no team identity whatsoever.

I see it like this. PoMo has this odd desire to see untalented players succeed. e.g Tanev, Thorburn, Lowry, Larose etc. I don't know why NHL culture puts up with it, but why would a GM and owner want a coach is more interested in pushing those types of very low ceiling players. If I owned the team, I'd be all over these high upside guys getting a massive shot. We need to take advantage of that potential because it sure as hell can't be signed in FA in this market.

I get the feeling there might be a disconnect between Chevy and Maurice on certain players. Petan has spent only a little over half a season in the minors, yet PoMo effectively refuses to use him. I find that very odd. The way Pavelec was dealt with at the end of last season was really weird as well.

 

[Aavco Cup]

So, if you asked me, BW, how many games did we outplay the competition?

I'd probably answer maybe 2, probably 1. The Oilers kicked our teeth in first period, irrespective of the lead. The Canucks game was our only real 60 minute effort where we were the better team. Helley stole the game against Carolina.

We aren't playing well at all right now, as a matter of fact we're playing -to a T- the way we've played since we got bounced by Anaheim. We have no team identity whatsoever.

When did I say we were playing we'll exactly? I don't remember doing that.

IMO thought team played well in

1 period vs Toronto (2bad)
1 period vs Calgary (2bad)
2 periods vs Edmonton (1bad)
2 periods vs Vancouver (1meh)
1 period vs Carolina (2meh)
0 periods vs Columbus (3bad)

Pretty much like our overall record

 

[Dayofthedogs]

Feel free to provide a link/quote to such a post if one exists.

It quite likely wasn't you. I'm not peticularly interested in going through the entire GDT to find it.

My apologies if it wasn't. Can edit your name out.

***it's been edited.

 

[White Out 902]

When did I say we were playing we'll exactly? I don't remember doing that.

IMO thought team played well in

1 period vs Toronto (2bad)
1 period vs Calgary (2bad)
2 periods vs Edmonton (1bad)
2 periods vs Vancouver (1meh)
1 period vs Carolina (2meh)
0 periods vs Columbus (3bad)

Pretty much like our overall record

Our record is 3-3 but your record period by period is 7-8-3. And I think your being generous. I'd score the periods as 6 good, 10 bad, 2 meh.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Our record is 3-3 but your record period by period is 7-8-3. And I think your being generous. I'd score the periods as 6 good, 10 bad, 2 meh.

Your point is what here? That people have differing opinions?

 

[winnipegger]

When did I say we were playing we'll exactly? I don't remember doing that.

IMO thought team played well in

1 period vs Toronto (2bad)
1 period vs Calgary (2bad)
2 periods vs Edmonton (1bad)
2 periods vs Vancouver (1meh)
1 period vs Carolina (2meh)
0 periods vs Columbus (3bad)

Pretty much like our overall record

I agree with this assessment, the Jets actually played quite well in the 3rd period against Carolina. But the fact that there is no 3 periods of good hockey 6 games in is worrying. If we are below the playoff line at American thanksgiving do you want to just stay patient? I think the fans of this team patience is running out in general. It's not like this is a super young and inexperienced team. It's built to be good now with vets like Little Wheeler Buff Scheifele all in the prime years of their career. We can't just have another year where it's a struggle to be .500. You are going to start to get serious apathy from the fan base.

 

[Asiantuntija]

Sorry - No. Without Mason it could have been 5-0 by the time the second goal went in.

Plays 3 games, gives 16 goals, way too easy rebounds and people are still defending his performances?

Team is still undefeated with Buck Buck as a starter.

 

[DashingDane]

@Pate alluded to it in a previous post but I think the lack of year to year progress is a huge red flag. It feels like every season is started over from scratch. The team starts slow and don't look great. They gradually start looking slightly better and finish of strong giving us all hope for the future. Rinse and repeat. The fact that we haven't seen significant team progress since the playoff year is mind blowing to me. 164+ games with the same core should be enough time to find chemistry regardless of which line you are on and learn/ master a defensive scheme that works.

As far as useless players goes... I won't get into forwards because most of us agree but I will simply state that we get more in a Dano/Petan trade than a Tanev/Matthias trade.

I actually think most of the Jets problems come from having the wrong type of defenders. Every single Jets defender we have playing was drafted because of their offensive upside with the exception of maybe Poolman. Trouba and maybe JoMo are the only ones I consider strong at both. With the amount of forward skill this team has I don't think it is a good idea for your backends natural instincts to be attack. There is absolutely no reason for Myers, Buff and Trouba to be carrying the puck up as often as they do. We need our defenders to keep it simple. IMO that's why Poolman has looked so strong thus far. IMO defenders that keep it simple more often than not were drafted because the are good at defending and not because they can put up pts.

If I was Chevy I trade away Myers and if possible Enstrom. Enstrom is still smart but is too small and has lost a step. No way he gets a new contract next season. Myers has size and is a great skater but doesn't defend and tends to make the wrong choice most of the times he has the puck. Buff is Buff. Not apposed to trading him this off season but I don't think he is the reason the Jets look as bad as they do at the moment. Troubs and JoMo haven't been great but I fully expect them to get better and at least we've seen they are capable of defending.