Prospect Info: Jacob De La Rose

Status
Not open for further replies.

montreal

Go Habs Go
Mar 21, 2002
57,625
40,725
www.youtube.com
I disagree with this. It's not just how they end up in ten years. If you can get substantial extra production within a few years of the draft, immediate help, that has value as well. What matters is the total contributed value.

Dulcair has more total contributed value right now. McCarron doesn't need to just be more valuable than Dulcair in 2020 to be the better pick, he needs to be substantially more valuable.

it's impossible to know if a 18 year old has peaked, or will be ready for the NHL. I didn't say that McCarron doesn't need to just be better, since you seem to like to put words into peoples mouths that aren't there. My point is that it's not a race, in 10 years you have a much clearer picture of what you have. Personally I don't care about the who we should have picked, I only care about who we picked and how they do in terms of helping us win.
 

SergeConstantin74

Always right.
Jul 7, 2007
12,335
7,217
you win some you lose some, but it's too early to say if he ends up being a better pick then McCarron or others since it's not a race it's how they end up in 10 years. It looks like the Habs missed the boat on Duclair, it's going to happen as some kids will peak, others will progress quickly and others will take longer, that said Timmins has shown he knows what he's doing for the most part. The Crisp pick I still wonder if Churla had some say in this one or not. Injuries have made it impossible to even know what we even have.

Still wish the Habs didn't rush DLR but that doesn't mean he can't be a useful NHLer in the next year or two. Fucale I really don't know what to make and fear they went more with need, as it was a major need at the time, I am always against need, you got to go BPA. Lehkonen has the skill, if he can overcome his lack of size, he's going to be a good one. McCarron should be a beast for us at some point. Plus if Price wasn't injured the Habs are likely a top team again, big difference in developing prospects for top teams then teams that suck.

Drouin and Duclair dominated minor hockey in the Montreal region for years and they had them in their own backyard. Drouin they had no chance but Duclair they had 5 and chose wrong 4 (or maybe 5) times.

No excuse.
 

GREMLIN

Tanking enthusiast
Sep 19, 2013
3,742
290
Drouin and Duclair dominated minor hockey in the Montreal region for years and they had them in their own backyard. Drouin they had no chance but Duclair they had 5 and chose wrong 4 (or maybe 5) times.

No excuse.

This applies to Leblanc and Esposito as well, it doesn't mean squat that they dominated Montréal region minor hockey, a player that dominates Ontario or Minnesota is just as valuable, if they truly dominate the minor leagues all 30 teams will know about them, we're long past the days where a minor hockey player could be kept a secret. If there is one team that picks a lot of the players that dominated hockey in Québec it's the Habs as they have drafted the Midget AAA leading scorer many times in recent years in Audette (3rd), Dumont and Leblanc.

Not saying I liked the Crisp pick, I just don't agree that the habs failed because they didn't pick a kid that dominated minor Montreal hockey, they failed because they didn't see the skill and the atheticism the kid had, because there are plenty of kids that tear up the minor leagues but aren't interesting prospects.
 
Last edited:

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,798
20,951
it's impossible to know if a 18 year old has peaked, or will be ready for the NHL. I didn't say that McCarron doesn't need to just be better, since you seem to like to put words into peoples mouths that aren't there. My point is that it's not a race, in 10 years you have a much clearer picture of what you have. Personally I don't care about the who we should have picked, I only care about who we picked and how they do in terms of helping us win.

I don't appreciate your unprovoked and incorrect flame.

What you wrote is:
" it's not a race it's how they end up in 10 years. "
Those are your exact words, which means that in your view what matters is their relative performance in (and presumably around) the 2022-2023 season.

You also said "it's not a race", which discounts early performance where the discussion pertains specifically to Dulcair's early performance. I'm saying early performance matters. Dulcair at this point has already contributed a season of strong, 2nd line performance in the NHL. That adds to his net integrated value.
 

Mrb1p

PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Dec 10, 2011
88,800
54,987
Citizen of the world
I don't appreciate your unprovoked and incorrect flame.

What you wrote is:
" it's not a race it's how they end up in 10 years. "
Those are your exact words, which means that in your view what matters is their relative performance in (and presumably around) the 2022-2023 season.

You also said "it's not a race", which discounts early performance where the discussion pertains specifically to Dulcair's early performance. I'm saying early performance matters.

Tbh DA, you know that's not what he meant..
 

SergeConstantin74

Always right.
Jul 7, 2007
12,335
7,217
This applies to Leblanc and Esposito as well, it doesn't mean squat that they dominated Montréal region minor hockey, a player that dominates Ontario or Minnesota is just as valuable, if they truly dominate the minor leagues all 30 teams will know about them, we're long past the days where a minor hockey player could be kept a secret. If there is one team that picks a lot of the players that dominated hockey in Québec it's the Habs as they have drafted the Midget AAA leading scorer many times in recent years in Audette (3rd), Dumont and Leblanc.

Not saying I liked the Crisp pick, I just don't agree that the habs failed because they didn't pick a kid that dominated minor Montreal hockey, they failed because they didn't see the skill and the atheticism the kid had, because there are plenty of kids that tear up the minor leagues but aren't interesting prospects.

You can have your own explanation but we're still saying the same, they failed.

That 2013 is looking like a whole big fail sor far with the 6 top 90 picks they had.
 

SpeedyPotato

Registered User
Mar 29, 2012
2,581
2,404
You can have your own explanation but we're still saying the same, they failed.

That 2013 is looking like a whole big fail sor far with the 6 top 90 picks they had.

What ?? How can that draft be a fail? The only guys that have made it with some kind of impact after the McCarron pick are Dano, Duclair and Janmark. By far the habs have the most games played from prospects drafted in the 2nd and 3rd round. DLR is first in all the 2nd round picks and Ghetto is 4th among the 3rd round. Plus we probably have a top 6 winger in Lehkonen and a possible solid third line center in McCarron. Yeah the Crisp pick hurts, but to me, the average is actually pretty good in that draft.
 

S Bah

Registered User
Nov 7, 2010
9,126
566
victoria bc
This applies to Leblanc and Esposito as well, it doesn't mean squat that they dominated Montréal region minor hockey, a player that dominates Ontario or Minnesota is just as valuable, if they truly dominate the minor leagues all 30 teams will know about them, we're long past the days where a minor hockey player could be kept a secret. If there is one team that picks a lot of the players that dominated hockey in Québec it's the Habs as they have drafted the Midget AAA leading scorer many times in recent years in Audette (3rd), Dumont and Leblanc.

Not saying I liked the Crisp pick, I just don't agree that the habs failed because they didn't pick a kid that dominated minor Montreal hockey, they failed because they didn't see the skill and the atheticism the kid had, because there are plenty of kids that tear up the minor leagues but aren't interesting prospects.

There are so many picks on hindsight everyone could pick a winner consistently having the best player available. I had no idea about Connor Crisp when he was chosen, since I have seen him play, taking injuries into consideration, he has good possibility of becoming an NHLer despite being a 3rd round pick. I had wanted the Habs to pick Victoriaville's big LHD Johnathan Ismael-Diaby @ 6'5" 215 lbs., we had Tinordi at the time. Certainly Duclair was a star for the Remparts, his speed and scoring touch on the wing, would be great as Drouin would also, can't change history. Actually would love to see the Habs acquire J.Drouin for our Top Six, without losing Galchenyuk or a core group player. I see him being a great player for the next generation, alongside the likes of Max Domi, Connor McDavid, true gamebreaking talents that are creative stickhandling geniuses, just my opinion for what it's worth.:nod::nod::nod:
 

montreal

Go Habs Go
Mar 21, 2002
57,625
40,725
www.youtube.com
Drouin and Duclair dominated minor hockey in the Montreal region for years and they had them in their own backyard. Drouin they had no chance but Duclair they had 5 and chose wrong 4 (or maybe 5) times.

No excuse.

To each their own but personally I never put any stock into the whole back yard thing. If Price were from Japan, would it matter? You draft the players you feel have the best upside and or will fit what you are trying to build. I know some feel the Habs should do a better job of drafting out of the Q, but to me I've never cared where anyone is drafted from, just hope the players they get progress into solid NHLers that can help the team win.

Now mistakes are always going to be made, scouts are going to miss out on lots of players since you have only a few chances each year as the Habs over the past 9 years have had on average a hair over 6 picks a year. But it's a two way street. For every back yard player that you miss out on like Duclair, you have a Subban or Price or Pac or McDonagh, etc... that you hit big on. I can understand though that fans of the Q would want to see the Habs draft more from their and do a much better job since they haven't done well drafting from there in some time. But to me it's just a poor way to go about things, just like only hiring a French speaking coach, when you limit yourself to a certain talent pool, you are selling yourself short imo. Now we can't say for sure but look at the '09 draft, at home and tons of pressure to draft a local kid. The Leblanc pick at the time made sense for where he was selected, and in hindsight Simon Després would have been a better local pick (I thought that's who they are going to take) but just think of the outcry had they opted to pick Kreider or John Moore etc... but it would have been the better outcome for the organization.

I don't appreciate your unprovoked and incorrect flame.

What you wrote is:
" it's not a race it's how they end up in 10 years. "
Those are your exact words, which means that in your view what matters is their relative performance in (and presumably around) the 2022-2023 season.

You also said "it's not a race", which discounts early performance where the discussion pertains specifically to Dulcair's early performance. I'm saying early performance matters. Dulcair at this point has already contributed a season of strong, 2nd line performance in the NHL. That adds to his net integrated value.

I don't know how you assumed that, but I'll try to be clearer, since some guys progress quicker then others, I think it's best to wait 10 years and see how things have gone over that entire 10 year period. So what Dulcair is doing now is great, but if say McCarron turns out to be a cup winning 3rd or 4th liner that is one of the top bottom 6 centers in the NHL, things are going to look very different. Sometimes 10 years isn't even enough time. Look at Pateryn, he's 26 and looking to play his first full season in the NHL in terms of games played I would think (since last year was a career high of 38 games) Now I'm not saying he's going to be anything special or not as I still don't know what he can do in the NHL if given a full time spot to play every night on a bottom pairing. But the point is, as an '08 draft pick, he's shown very after spending 4 years in the NCAA, 3 in the AHL and 1 NHL season where he sat half the time, but finally looks like he could be a decent NHLer perhaps. Now if he turns into a decent NHLer, of course it won't look as good as others that have been in the NHL for several years now, but the point is that it's impossible to know what the future holds for them so while someone might show good things now, it doesn't mean that others won't be better later on or at least close to it.

You can have your own explanation but we're still saying the same, they failed.

That 2013 is looking like a whole big fail sor far with the 6 top 90 picks they had.

I don't think it's looking like a whole big fail for the 6 top 90 picks. The Crisp pick looks really bad but injuries have kept him to very limited ice time, Fucale is not looking great but played better then his numbers reflected, McCarron looks like he's going to be a beast for us, Lehkonen is about to become an NHLer, DLR should be a solid defensive forward, Ghetto has NHL speed and shot that's shown some good things last year. It's still early and we'll see how it ends up but no way would I say it looks like a whole big fail.
 

SergeConstantin74

Always right.
Jul 7, 2007
12,335
7,217
To each their own but personally I never put any stock into the whole back yard thing. If Price were from Japan, would it matter? You draft the players you feel have the best upside and or will fit what you are trying to build. I know some feel the Habs should do a better job of drafting out of the Q, but to me I've never cared where anyone is drafted from, just hope the players they get progress into solid NHLers that can help the team win.

Now mistakes are always going to be made, scouts are going to miss out on lots of players since you have only a few chances each year as the Habs over the past 9 years have had on average a hair over 6 picks a year. But it's a two way street. For every back yard player that you miss out on like Duclair, you have a Subban or Price or Pac or McDonagh, etc... that you hit big on. I can understand though that fans of the Q would want to see the Habs draft more from their and do a much better job since they haven't done well drafting from there in some time. But to me it's just a poor way to go about things, just like only hiring a French speaking coach, when you limit yourself to a certain talent pool, you are selling yourself short imo. Now we can't say for sure but look at the '09 draft, at home and tons of pressure to draft a local kid. The Leblanc pick at the time made sense for where he was selected, and in hindsight Simon Després would have been a better local pick (I thought that's who they are going to take) but just think of the outcry had they opted to pick Kreider or John Moore etc... but it would have been the better outcome for the organization.



I don't know how you assumed that, but I'll try to be clearer, since some guys progress quicker then others, I think it's best to wait 10 years and see how things have gone over that entire 10 year period. So what Dulcair is doing now is great, but if say McCarron turns out to be a cup winning 3rd or 4th liner that is one of the top bottom 6 centers in the NHL, things are going to look very different. Sometimes 10 years isn't even enough time. Look at Pateryn, he's 26 and looking to play his first full season in the NHL in terms of games played I would think (since last year was a career high of 38 games) Now I'm not saying he's going to be anything special or not as I still don't know what he can do in the NHL if given a full time spot to play every night on a bottom pairing. But the point is, as an '08 draft pick, he's shown very after spending 4 years in the NCAA, 3 in the AHL and 1 NHL season where he sat half the time, but finally looks like he could be a decent NHLer perhaps. Now if he turns into a decent NHLer, of course it won't look as good as others that have been in the NHL for several years now, but the point is that it's impossible to know what the future holds for them so while someone might show good things now, it doesn't mean that others won't be better later on or at least close to it.



I don't think it's looking like a whole big fail for the 6 top 90 picks. The Crisp pick looks really bad but injuries have kept him to very limited ice time, Fucale is not looking great but played better then his numbers reflected, McCarron looks like he's going to be a beast for us, Lehkonen is about to become an NHLer, DLR should be a solid defensive forward, Ghetto has NHL speed and shot that's shown some good things last year. It's still early and we'll see how it ends up but no way would I say it looks like a whole big fail.

I'm tired of the injury excuse with Crisp. He was an ordinary CHLer and a career minor leaguer the minute they drafted him.

McCarron has yet to show he's more than a 3rd-4th liner.

Lehkonen is the only bright spot with 0 NHL regular season game under his belt so far.
 

scrubadam

Registered User
Apr 10, 2016
12,438
1,904
If Mac and Lehkonen can play this year I will say that draft was a success. This year is big.

If we can trade ghetto for something it would be even better.
 

Andrei79

Registered User
Jan 25, 2013
15,244
27,207
I'm tired of the injury excuse with Crisp. He was an ordinary CHLer and a career minor leaguer the minute they drafted him.

McCarron has yet to show he's more than a 3rd-4th liner.

Lehkonen is the only bright spot with 0 NHL regular season game under his belt so far.

You're saying the draft was a fail because we didn't get Duclair. Who's had all of 1 season. 29 teams passed him at least twice and the one that did draft him, ended up trading him.

Yet you ignore the fact we've had a lot of NHL games already amongst that group. Lehkonen is not the "only" bright spot. McCarron is developping well, De La Rose looked like he belonged at 18. It's 2016, still so early to judge the draft.
 

montreal

Go Habs Go
Mar 21, 2002
57,625
40,725
www.youtube.com
I'm tired of the injury excuse with Crisp. He was an ordinary CHLer and a career minor leaguer the minute they drafted him.

McCarron has yet to show he's more than a 3rd-4th liner.

Lehkonen is the only bright spot with 0 NHL regular season game under his belt so far.

It's not an excuse though, it's a fact, the guy has been injured and despite what you think of him, there's no telling how it would have gone for him had he not been injured. Since most prospects fail, odds are on the side that he wouldn't have turned into anything but if you are injured for much of the time it's kind of hard to get any real read on said prospect.

There's no telling what McCarron will be in the NHL but there's nothing wrong if he ends up being a very good 3rd or 4th liner if it helps us win a cup.

Lehkonen does have zero NHL games and that's about to change but he just turned 21 3 months ago.

DLR has shown he could be a very good defensive forward. Take a look at the 2013 draft, aside from Duclair, only 3 other players drafted after him have appeared in more NHL games then DLR, well 4 but the 4th player is Ghetto who has also shown some things.

I still think Reway could surprise as he's clearly one of our most skilled prospects, if he can get his health issues corrected.
 

covfefe

Zoltan Poszar's Burner
Feb 5, 2014
5,234
6,301
I'm tired of the injury excuse with Crisp. He was an ordinary CHLer and a career minor leaguer the minute they drafted him.

McCarron has yet to show he's more than a 3rd-4th liner.

Lehkonen is the only bright spot with 0 NHL regular season game under his belt so far.

The only players taken after McCarron that year who have played significant minutes in the NHL are Janmark, Duclair, Pesce and Copp (guess his first name without google). There is a significant group of guys who you'd expect to see in the NHL soon but in terms of 60+ GP guys there are just those 4.

Plus we are the only team aside from Winnipeg to have realized more than 100 GP from picks in rounds 2 through 7.

It's also way too early to judge that year in any sense. I.E. now we can see with some certainty what the guys picked in 2010 have to offer. 5 years down the line is reasonable in terms of gauging a draft year
 

Andy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2008
31,799
15,566
Montreal
On a personal level, DLR is the most disappointing prospect so far, only because I had high hopes for him when he was drafted. He's still young, so there is room to further develop his game. It's just that I haven't liked what I've seen from him these past couple of seasons. He's just way to passive. His defensive IQ and positioning are excellent, but I just don't feel like he's influencing the game when he's on the ice. He doesn't really put much pressure offensively. It seems like he's always anticipating a change in possession so that he can be in proper position to defend as a forward as opposed to taking possession, maintaining it and turning it into scoring chances.

He's the definition of a player who plays a low percentage game. While playing a low percentage games works in certain real-time contexts, it's not always the best thing to do and you don't really help your team win games by only playing low percentage.
 
Last edited:

covfefe

Zoltan Poszar's Burner
Feb 5, 2014
5,234
6,301
I think we shot his confidence by playing him too soon and I don't feel he's developed in kind. I also am less than optimistic about his chances to continue to grow as a player under Lefebvre
 

BaseballCoach

Registered User
Dec 15, 2006
20,713
9,078
I think we shot his confidence by playing him too soon and I don't feel he's developed in kind. I also am less than optimistic about his chances to continue to grow as a player under Lefebvre

The last few games of last year, when he was back in St. John's, he pulled off some beautiful goals.

He needs to play with offensive players to develop that part of his game.
 

Andrei79

Registered User
Jan 25, 2013
15,244
27,207
On a personal level, DLR is the most disappointing prospect so far, only because I had high hopes for him when he was drafted. He's still young, so there is room to further develop his game. It's just that I haven't liked what I've seen from him these past couple of seasons. He's just way to passive. His defensive IQ and positioning are excellent, but I just don't feel like he's influencing the game when he's on the ice. He doesn't really put much pressure offensively. It seems like he's always anticipating a change in possession so that he can be in proper position to defend as a forward as opposed to taking possession, maintaining it and turning it into scoring chances.

He's the definition of a player who plays a low percentage game. While playing a low percentage games works in certain real-time contexts, it's not always the best thing to do and you don't really help your team win games by only playing low percentage.

Same for me, he's my biggest disapointment as I thought he read the game at an unusually high level for an 18 year old. Maybe last year was just his sophomore slump, it happens so often for under 20 year old rookies, even elite rookies which De La Rose isn't. They take things for granted and have a terrible second year.

He shot up so quickly through the ranks to the NHL, last year was the first time he's had to face real adversity.

I still think he's too smart and to gifted physically to throw the towel already. He's just 21.
 

OldCraig71

Registered User
Feb 2, 2009
35,086
54,740
No one cares
Don't remember the incident, but Domi is a tough fellow. Don't let the 5'10 fool you.

I remember the "incident" and felt ashamed, its one thing to say that Domi is a tough "fellow" it is another to see our much bigger than 5'10 guy shake in his skates and drift to the box with his head down. He sure has the tools to do much more, I empathize a little with Don Cherry when I remember that game.:laugh:
 

dackelljuneaubulis02

Registered User
Oct 13, 2012
11,538
6,849
I think we shot his confidence by playing him too soon and I don't feel he's developed in kind. I also am less than optimistic about his chances to continue to grow as a player under Lefebvre

yeah I think we yo-yoed him way too much. They should've just let him alone in the AHL.

I wouldn't quite write him off but he really has to step it up.
 

montreal

Go Habs Go
Mar 21, 2002
57,625
40,725
www.youtube.com
I was against the way the handled DLR's development from the start, in most cases I'm dead set against 19 year olds in the AHL but in his case I did think it made more sense since he was so developed physically and defensively. But what really pissed me off was them calling him up last year when he was just starting to show some things. Now we'll just have to wait and see how it goes for him. On the other hand though I'm not too worried about him as I do think he could end up being a very solid 4th liner for us or perhaps even a 3rd if he finds a way to improve his offensive game by a good bit. The strange part is his physical game. I've seen him take the body with some good hits but then you don't see it from him, it makes me wonder if he's been told to work on other things or not as Tinordi was like that as well but in a much, much more noticeable way since he could really crush someone but then you wouldn't see it again for a couple weeks.

My biggest disappointment in a Hab prospect is a long list, not sure who I could name. Collberg, Perezhogin, the Kostitsyn brothers, Leblanc, Kristo. From the current guys I worry about Fucale, who as a 2nd round pick and one with that resume you would think he would do better. That said if you saw the defense in front of him last year, a case can be made that he's better then his numbers have shown. That said though, his rebound control is just terrible, not sure how that didn't come up in the scouting meetings, granted I don't recall watching him much before we drafted him. For their skill though, I thought Collberg was going to be something good, I thought Perezhogin was going to be a heck of a 2nd line winger (though he was never the same after that stick swinging incident), the brothers had the talent, it's just too bad it didn't work out. Kristo was likely the 2nd best player in the NCAA in his last year only 2nd to Johnny hockey, really thought he would have been an NHLer with his speed and shot.
 

BaseballCoach

Registered User
Dec 15, 2006
20,713
9,078
yeah I think we yo-yoed him way too much. They should've just let him alone in the AHL.

I wouldn't quite write him off but he really has to step it up.

He still has two years before we risk exposing him to waivers. He needs to approach the game like he did the last 6 games of last year in St. John's. He was sniping like a boss!
 

Adam Michaels

Registered User
Jun 12, 2016
77,618
125,469
Montreal
To each their own but personally I never put any stock into the whole back yard thing. If Price were from Japan, would it matter? You draft the players you feel have the best upside and or will fit what you are trying to build. I know some feel the Habs should do a better job of drafting out of the Q, but to me I've never cared where anyone is drafted from, just hope the players they get progress into solid NHLers that can help the team win.

I really don't get why some feel this way. Ever since Bergevin took over, he hired and placed more scouts in Quebec. The result? Since his first draft in 2012, Habs have drafted 7 players from the Q out of the 32 picks they've made under his reign. That's about 22% of their draftees coming from the Q.

Since MB has GM'ed 5 drafts, if you look at the Habs previous 5 drafts from 2011 back to 2007, the previous administration had picked 5 players from the Q out of the 34 picks they made in all those years combined. That is 15% of their draftees coming from the Q.

From '07 to '11, the team went from 15% of their picks coming from the Q to 22% of them from '12 to '16. Bergevin promised he will put more focus in our own "backyard" and you can't say he hasn't done this.

Folks need to remember that the Q isn't the only Junior league in the country. We have the USHL and not to mention more eyes on the European circuit as well.

Bergevin's picks from the Q: Hudon, Andrighetto, Fucale, Reway, Gregoire, Audette, and Bourque.

Gainey/Gauthier picks from the Q: Fortier, Dumont, Ellis, Archambault, and Beaulieu.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,798
20,951
I really don't get why some feel this way. Ever since Bergevin took over, he hired and placed more scouts in Quebec. The result? Since his first draft in 2012, Habs have drafted 7 players from the Q out of the 32 picks they've made under his reign. That's about 22% of their draftees coming from the Q.

Since MB has GM'ed 5 drafts, if you look at the Habs previous 5 drafts from 2011 back to 2007, the previous administration had picked 5 players from the Q out of the 34 picks they made in all those years combined. That is 15% of their draftees coming from the Q.

From '07 to '11, the team went from 15% of their picks coming from the Q to 22% of them from '12 to '16. Bergevin promised he will put more focus in our own "backyard" and you can't say he hasn't done this.

Folks need to remember that the Q isn't the only Junior league in the country. We have the USHL and not to mention more eyes on the European circuit as well.

Bergevin's picks from the Q: Hudon, Andrighetto, Fucale, Reway, Gregoire, Audette, and Bourque.

Gainey/Gauthier picks from the Q: Fortier, Dumont, Ellis, Archambault, and Beaulieu.

Interestingly, Olivier Archambault is exactly the kind of player that posters accuse Timmins of ignoring.

High skill, high top-end potential, low work ethic, weak character, small size.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad